Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Ragusa Aluminum Pan Leaks...? (Don't jump to conclusions)
| Ragusa Aluminum Pan Leaks...? [message #358759] |
Thu, 17 September 2020 23:07  |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Senior Member |
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At one point I had a continent coach. I could park it on clean concrete for a couple or three weeks and there wouldn't be a drop on the pavement when I pulled out. That's changed.
The leak(s) were bright red ATF showing up all over the sides and bottom of the Ragusa aluminum pan. Anytime an ATF leak is mentioned, people chime in about the porous aluminum in the Ragusa transmission pan. This seemed like a remote possibility in my situation as my coach had been drip free for a long time. I thought it rather unlikely that the aluminum spontaneously developed osteo-pan-orosis. But there have been quite a few posts about Ragusa pans having porous aluminum, so I figured it was time to change the filter, see what sort of sludge was in the bottom of the pan, see if the aluminum really was porous, and finally kill the ATF leaks.
I called Ragusa a couple of times and spoke with Ron Ragusa and his son Tate to ask about the pan return process and exactly how they tested their pans and covers. Ron said they pressure test the pans with 40 psi air and soapy bubbles (remind me to buy stock in soapy bubbles). All pans are tested this way before they are sent out to a vendor or individual. This is beyond overkill testing as the pan never really sees any pressure at all. If it fails the pressure test they send out a new one, and if it passes they send the old pan back. I asked Tate how many returned pans test good and are sent back to the owner - "Lots." Hmmm...this warrants more investigation.
I was parked over the Samsel's pit in Bean Station which made things easy. I totally degreased the bottom of the engine, transmission pan and final drive. A couple of days later there's ATF all around the transmission pan flange and dripping from the fins of the Ragusa pan. There was even ATF at the top of some of the tunnels between the fins. This was parked, hadn't moved and no wind had been blowing the ATF around and spreading it out. Okay, that settles it, right...?
Scrupulously cleaning everything on the bottom of the engine and dusting with talcum powder pinpointed the leak as coming from the vent pin hole.
Wally Andersen posted a picture on the GMC photo site that showed me where the hole is located. Until I saw his picture I thought it was coming from further up. The hole is not easy to see and probably covered with coagulated road grime.
The vent pin hole is located between the two seals on the shaft. If the hole leaks ATF the transmission side seal is leaking, if it leaks heavy gear oil the final drive side seal is leaking. The 1975 & 1976 Maintenance Manual X-7525 shows the vent pin in Figure 1 Section 3C-2
I cleaned around the vent pin hole with degreaser and then acetone, and applied a wad of butyl stickum over the vent hole as quickly as possible - ATF is a speedy creeper.
Two weeks and 800 miles later and there wasn't a drop of ATF anywhere on the pan. I was certain that there was a small leak at the driver's rear corner of the transmission pan. Nope, nothing at all.
I now know there's no reason to send my pan back to Ragusa, that'd just be wasted shipping cost and time for both of us, and I now know I have to replace the shaft seal on the transmission side of the final drive. I consider that a win-win: not chasing an imaginary problem and finding a real one.
But this brings up a concern. I'm concerned that a long time GMCer and GMC vendor, someone that stands behind their products and doesn't argue trying to deny their liability, whose products are all Made In America, and is just a super friendly guy, is having their products and reputation tarnished through anecdote and innuendo propagation. This bothers me and it should bother the GMC community as a whole.
Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=39755
The original poster got a replacement pan without any hassle, was told the pan they sent back was pressure tested and passed, and found out that the ATF leak was still there after the new pan was installed and coming from parts unknown. Another coated the inside of their pan and the leak was still there. And another found the leak was coming from the final drive gasket.
Please understand I am NOT casting aspersions or blaming anyone. We're all on this forum to help others with our experience, experiences and advice. Frankly, I think we do a hell of a good job. I'm also NOT suggesting that any manufacturer's products are perfect and they deserve a pass. I know that there have been some Ragusa transmission pans that leaked, but the problem is overblown. What I am saying is that the porosity is not common, and it's unlikely that a pan that is pressure tested to 40 psi with air is leaking ATF at ambient air pressure. Warm ATF molecules aren't smaller than air molecules, so temperature won't make a difference.
Jim K told me that the lion's share of returned pans pressure test as good. Manny said straight out that the Ragusa pans aren't porous. He said that most of the leaks come from the rear 3 bolts so he puts Viton O-rings on the bolts before installing them and tightens the bolts to only ~10 ft-lbs.
So it seems to me that the best advice we can give is to have someone who suspects a bad pan contact Ragusa or Jim Kanomata. They're the ones that can tell them how to best install the pan to avoid leaks, where the leaks commonly occur, and will stand behind the product if it does need replacement.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ragusa Aluminum Pan Leaks...? [message #358760 is a reply to message #358759] |
Thu, 17 September 2020 23:45  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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We supply lot of Ragusa Tran pans and when the customer contacts us re
leak, we find that there arefew places that one need to check.
One is at the tube that enter the final drive to fill trans, the speedo
housing and the rearcover.
There are times fluid can come from the weeping hole at the final drive.
On Thu, Sep 17, 2020 at 9:08 PM Richard via Gmclist
wrote:
> At one point I had a continent coach. I could park it on clean concrete
> for a couple or three weeks and there wouldn't be a drop on the pavement
> when I pulled out. That's changed.
>
> The leak(s) were bright red ATF showing up all over the sides and bottom
> of the Ragusa aluminum pan. Anytime an ATF leak is mentioned, people chime
> in about the porous aluminum in the Ragusa transmission pan. This seemed
> like a remote possibility in my situation as my coach had been drip free for
> a long time. I thought it rather unlikely that the aluminum spontaneously
> developed osteo-pan-orosis. But there have been quite a few posts about
> Ragusa pans having porous aluminum, so I figured it was time to change the
> filter, see what sort of sludge was in the bottom of the pan, see if the
> aluminum really was porous, and finally kill the ATF leaks.
>
> I called Ragusa a couple of times and spoke with Ron Ragusa and his son
> Tate to ask about the pan return process and exactly how they tested their
> pans and covers. Ron said they pressure test the pans with 40 psi air and
> soapy bubbles (remind me to buy stock in soapy bubbles). All pans are
> tested this way before they are sent out to a vendor or individual. This
> is beyond overkill testing as the pan never really sees any pressure at
> all. If it fails the pressure test they send out a new one, and if it
> passes they send the old pan back. I asked Tate how many returned pans test
> good and are sent back to the owner - "Lots." Hmmm...this warrants more
> investigation.
>
> I was parked over the Samsel's pit in Bean Station which made things
> easy. I totally degreased the bottom of the engine, transmission pan and
> final
> drive. A couple of days later there's ATF all around the transmission pan
> flange and dripping from the fins of the Ragusa pan. There was even ATF
> at the top of some of the tunnels between the fins. This was parked,
> hadn't moved and no wind had been blowing the ATF around and spreading it
> out. Okay, that settles it, right...?
>
> Scrupulously cleaning everything on the bottom of the engine and dusting
> with talcum powder pinpointed the leak as coming from the vent pin hole.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/7276/medium/2E74FBD7-49A0-4F9F-90ED-81234BC35E7F.jpeg
>
> Wally Andersen posted a picture on the GMC photo site that showed me where
> the hole is located. Until I saw his picture I thought it was coming from
> further up. The hole is not easy to see and probably covered with
> coagulated road grime.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/7276/13675C28-47C7-4675-A640-43002421AC28.jpeg
>
> The vent pin hole is located between the two seals on the shaft. If the
> hole leaks ATF the transmission side seal is leaking, if it leaks heavy gear
> oil the final drive side seal is leaking. The 1975 & 1976 Maintenance
> Manual X-7525 shows the vent pin in Figure 1 Section 3C-2
>
> I cleaned around the vent pin hole with degreaser and then acetone, and
> applied a wad of butyl stickum over the vent hole as quickly as possible -
> ATF
> is a speedy creeper.
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/7276/medium/4B65D098-7741-4429-978A-C3B308B5686A.jpeg
>
> Two weeks and 800 miles later and there wasn't a drop of ATF anywhere on
> the pan. I was certain that there was a small leak at the driver's rear
> corner of the transmission pan. Nope, nothing at all.
>
> I now know there's no reason to send my pan back to Ragusa, that'd just be
> wasted shipping cost and time for both of us, and I now know I have to
> replace the shaft seal on the transmission side of the final drive. I
> consider that a win-win: not chasing an imaginary problem and finding a real
> one.
>
> But this brings up a concern. I'm concerned that a long time GMCer and
> GMC vendor, someone that stands behind their products and doesn't argue
> trying to deny their liability, whose products are all Made In America,
> and is just a super friendly guy, is having their products and reputation
> tarnished through anecdote and innuendo propagation. This bothers me and
> it should bother the GMC community as a whole.
>
> Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=39755
> The original poster got a replacement pan without any hassle, was told the
> pan they sent back was pressure tested and passed, and found out that the
> ATF leak was still there after the new pan was installed and coming from
> parts unknown. Another coated the inside of their pan and the leak was
> still there. And another found the leak was coming from the final drive
> gasket.
>
> Please understand I am NOT casting aspersions or blaming anyone. We're
> all on this forum to help others with our experience, experiences and
> advice. Frankly, I think we do a hell of a good job. I'm also NOT
> suggesting that any manufacturer's products are perfect and they deserve a
> pass. I know that there have been some Ragusa transmission pans that
> leaked, but the problem is overblown. What I am saying is that the porosity
> is not common, and it's unlikely that a pan that is pressure tested to 40
> psi with air is leaking ATF at ambient air pressure. Warm ATF molecules
> aren't smaller than air molecules, so temperature won't make a difference.
>
> Jim K told me that the lion's share of returned pans pressure test as
> good. Manny said straight out that the Ragusa pans aren't porous. He said
> that most of the leaks come from the rear 3 bolts so he puts Viton O-rings
> on the bolts before installing them and tightens the bolts to only ~10
> ft-lbs.
>
> So it seems to me that the best advice we can give is to have someone who
> suspects a bad pan contact Ragusa or Jim Kanomata. They're the ones that
> can tell them how to best install the pan to avoid leaks, where the leaks
> commonly occur, and will stand behind the product if it does need
> replacement.
>
> Richard
> --
> '77 Birchaven TZE...777;
> '76 Palm Beach with 18,477 verified miles;
> ‘76 Edgemonte
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Ragusa Aluminum Pan Leaks...? [message #358763 is a reply to message #358759] |
Fri, 18 September 2020 08:10 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Richard,
UV die is an awesome way to find leaks. If you ever run into a tricky situation on a leak.
I would be very nervous about your final drive/transmission. If your final drive pinion seal is leaking, the pinion bearing is probably bad. The scary thing is that can take out the end shaft of the transmission. there are couple gmc'r's that have the end of transmission get tore up by that bad pinion bearing. and not fun to have to swap a final drive and transmission out on the road.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Ragusa Aluminum Pan Leaks...? [message #358782 is a reply to message #358763] |
Sat, 19 September 2020 10:47 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Senior Member |
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|
Jon,
I'm definitely not ignoring the seal failure and intend to open up the final drive ASAP. That's one of the reasons that I'm concerned about chasing porous aluminum (which would just require adding ATF and living with driveway leaks) instead of determining the more likely culprits which might point to much bigger problem$.
I've never tried using UV dye to locate a leak but will do so since you recommend it. Thanks.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ragusa Aluminum Pan Leaks...? [message #358783 is a reply to message #358782] |
Sat, 19 September 2020 11:15 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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The weep hole between the trans and final drive will seep a bit quite
often. The duplex mirror seal that lives between the two cases, is hard to
find. Lot of times, two identical seals are fitted back to back on each
side of the weep hole. Field expediency. It will work in a pinch. But, some
seepage was allowable 40 plus years ago, when no one had white carpets on
the floors in their humidity controlled and air conditioned rv storage
facilities. You do have that, don't you?
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 8:48 AM Richard via Gmclist
wrote:
> Jon,
>
> I'm definitely not ignoring the seal failure and intend to open up the
> final drive ASAP. That's one of the reasons that I'm concerned about
> chasing
> porous aluminum (which would just require adding ATF and living with
> driveway leaks) instead of determining the more likely culprits which might
> point
> to much bigger problem$.
>
> I've never tried using UV dye to locate a leak but will do so since you
> recommend it. Thanks.
>
> Richard
> --
> '77 Birchaven TZE...777;
> '76 Palm Beach with 18,477 verified miles;
> ‘76 Edgemonte
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Ragusa Aluminum Pan Leaks...? [message #358799 is a reply to message #358783] |
Sat, 19 September 2020 17:18 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Richard/,
Should you find that the tran does not leak for a week, then starts after,
the leak is coming from the trans fill tube at the base on the final drive.
Torque converter leaks down and the fluid level creeps up above that point.
Use the RTV sealant and push it down and secure.
On Sat, Sep 19, 2020 at 9:16 AM James Hupy via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> The weep hole between the trans and final drive will seep a bit quite
> often. The duplex mirror seal that lives between the two cases, is hard to
> find. Lot of times, two identical seals are fitted back to back on each
> side of the weep hole. Field expediency. It will work in a pinch. But, some
> seepage was allowable 40 plus years ago, when no one had white carpets on
> the floors in their humidity controlled and air conditioned rv storage
> facilities. You do have that, don't you?
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2020, 8:48 AM Richard via Gmclist >
> wrote:
>
>> Jon,
>>
>> I'm definitely not ignoring the seal failure and intend to open up the
>> final drive ASAP. That's one of the reasons that I'm concerned about
>> chasing
>> porous aluminum (which would just require adding ATF and living with
>> driveway leaks) instead of determining the more likely culprits which
> might
>> point
>> to much bigger problem$.
>>
>> I've never tried using UV dye to locate a leak but will do so since you
>> recommend it. Thanks.
>>
>> Richard
>> --
>> '77 Birchaven TZE...777;
>> '76 Palm Beach with 18,477 verified miles;
>> ‘76 Edgemonte
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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