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| [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67183] |
Fri, 11 December 2009 11:24  |
Barrier
Messages: 11
Registered: August 2004
Location: Long Island New York
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Hi All, When I bought my '77 Palm Beach which I recently sold it was equipped with Dual Propane / Gas power. It had a similar setup to the one just pictured of John Muller's Coach. The propane was located in a tank mounted on an extension that replaced the mounts for the rear bumper. The mount was professionally built to support the Propane tank and the stock bumper cylinders and Bumper.The main problem was that the Propane tank was not baffled correctly as I drove it home from Mn to NY as I went around curves suddenly the liquid propane would shift from one side to the other causing the whole MH to shift and sway dragging the rear with it a very SCARY experience.
When I removed the tank the original Bumper etc just bolted up. I still have the whole set up with the exception of the Tank and lines from front to rear. There was even a solenoid in the fuel line to cut off the fuel when it was run on Propane I left that in the Coach where it served as a fuel cut off anti theft device. The tank I cut up since it was too large to keep. I tried bringing it to the Dump but it was rejected, I was told it had to be de-commissioned??? I cut it up into small parts that was real De-commissioning.
A couple of years ago someone on the Forum wanted the Bumper extension but shipping was a problem so I still have it. I might even have photos some place.
Mark LINY Former '77 Palm Beach & '77 Birchaven.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67225 is a reply to message #67198] |
Fri, 11 December 2009 20:05  |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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| ljdavick wrote on Fri, 11 December 2009 15:09 |
Mark,
What was your experience driving under propane vs gasoline?
The only propane powered rigs I've driven had forks on the front!
Larry Davick
The Mystery Machine
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Larry,
I'm not Mark (you may have guessed), but I have some interesting experience in this venue.
At the same time we (at a contract development lab in Ann Arbor) were building the multi-fuel -OH capable vehicles, we were also contracted to develop and build two dual fuel -LPG vehicles. These were based on a GM platform with a turbo-charged V6. One was a closed loop Impco adapted to the existing throttle body. the other did a step-over conversion to liquid propane at the port injectors.
Both vehicles were scary fast, but the liquid injector had the propensity to be terrifying.
Both would start just fine, but had performance issues when running dead cold (DUH!). Even though the ECU could control maximum boost optimize the spark advance based on a very functional knock detector (slight bow here), the programing had trouble when cold and in the open loop mode until we were just about done with the program.
With the Impco, the problem was withdrawal rate cold. The vapor fuel system had to draw gas of the tank to start and only when the jacket water temperature gets hot enough, can it change over to using the liquid withdrawal system and the vaporizer to feed the engine. This is a good plan unless the cold operation has caused the tank to sub-cool so much that the tank pressure is too low to deliver the liquid to the vaporizer. Then you sit by the side of the road and when you can get it to start you nurse it off to someplace you can warm it up.
The port inject vehicle had its own quirk. You can just imagine the chill of the liquid propane flashing to gas when the injectors were open. This caused a charge air cooling that a sometimes could make the charge in the cold cylinder virtually fire-proof. As above, this also could be worked around with just a little of the patience so rare in young gear-head engineers. NOW, When this vehicle was up to operating temperature, that chilling would cause a charge density increase that allowed it to produce enough horsepower to destroy the first two transmissions.
All the vehicle fuel tanks used were ASTM code and designed for over the road vehicle use and fabricated for us with slosh baffles and an array or fitting not normally found in LP fuel tanks.
There is, in just my humble but experienced opinion) no disadvantage to propane as a vehicle fuel other than the required weight of the fuel tank.
Ah, Memories of spending other peoples money and getting paid to do it. Almost makes me wish I was a Congressman.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67226 is a reply to message #67225] |
Fri, 11 December 2009 20:10 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Wow! You've got my vote.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Colie" <mcolie@chartermi.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 6:05:46 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power
Larry,
I'm not Mark (you may have guessed), but I have some interesting experience in this venue.
At the same time we (at a contract development lab in Ann Arbor) were building the multi-fuel -OH capable vehicles, we were also contracted to develop and build two dual fuel -LPG vehicles. These were based on a GM platform with a turbo-charged V6. One was a closed loop Impco adapted to the existing throttle body. the other did a step-over conversion to liquid propane at the port injectors.
Both vehicles were scary fast, but the liquid injector had the propensity to be terrifying.
Both would start just fine, but had performance issues when running dead cold (DUH!). Even though the ECU could control maximum boost optimize the spark advance based on a very functional knock detector (slight bow here), the programing had trouble when cold and in the open loop mode until we were just about done with the program.
With the Impco, the problem was withdrawal rate cold. The vapor fuel system had to draw gas of the tank to start and only when the jacket water temperature gets hot enough, can it change over to using the liquid withdrawal system and the vaporizer to feed the engine. This is a good plan unless the cold operation has caused the tank to sub-cool so much that the tank pressure is too low to deliver the liquid to the vaporizer. Then you sit by the side of the road and when you can get it to start you nurse it off to someplace you can warm it up.
The port inject vehicle had its own quirk. You can just imagine the chill of the liquid propane flashing to gas when the injectors were open. This caused a charge air cooling that a sometimes could make the charge in the cold cylinder virtually fire-proof. As above, this also could be worked around with just a little of the patience so rare in young gear-head engineers. NOW, When this vehicle was up to operating temperature, that chilling would cause a charge density increase that allowed it to produce enough horsepower to destroy the first two transmissions.
All the vehicle fuel tanks used were ASTM code and designed for over the road vehicle use and fabricated for us with slosh baffles and an array or fitting not normally found in LP fuel tanks.
There is, in just my humble but experienced opinion) no disadvantage to propane as a vehicle fuel other than the required weight of the fuel tank.
Ah, Memories of spending other peoples money and getting paid to do it. Almost makes me wish I was a Congressman.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
SE Michigan
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67235 is a reply to message #67226] |
Fri, 11 December 2009 21:55 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
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A very interesting story from Matt. It parallels my own experience designing and building an LPG system in the Detroit area at about the same time, I'll bet. Our objectives were a little more modest as the system was design to be able to run closed loop, but we never did it. And we (I) decided that even though I had spent a lot of my career designing fuel injectors we would use gaseous carburetion instead of liquid injection. The problem we foresaw was keeping the liquid liquid. Anyway, to recover some of the lost power I went to some trouble to use the latent heat of the fuel to cool the incoming charge. A couple of finned copper tubes were looped around the air filter housing. Worked pretty well and I think I drove the vehicle at temperatures down to 0F with no problem. Similar to what Matt found, the standard IMPCO system we used as a comparison would sometimes quit after a couple of miles and then I had to wait for the heat to soak into the
regulator before I could go again. Interesting project and like Matt said - it's great to be able to paid to do some of those things.
I found a misconception in some of the literature, including a blurb in the Wickepedia. The statement has been made that propane produces less power because of the lower heating value, which is about 20% less than gasoline on a per gallon basis. That doesn't make sense as one merely has to feed in more propane. The real reason is that propane has a molecular weight of about half gasoline and therefore in the gaseous state it takes up more of the volume. To make matters worse, the heat to vaporize gasoline is largely taken from the incoming air, cooling it in the process and increasing the density of the charge. Propane is usually introduced as a gas, so it doesn't cool the charge. Except in the case that Matt described where liquid is injected.
I'm afraid most of these interesting alternative fuels don't fit the GMC operating profile very well. Propane is probably just as expensive or more than gasoline. CNG provides such a low range that it wouldn't be of interest for a vehicle that specializes in taking trips. LNG could provide the range, but there are virtually no refueling stations around.
Gary
________________________________
From: Larry Davick <ljdavick@comcast.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Fri, December 11, 2009 7:10:04 PM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power
Wow! You've got my vote.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Colie" <mcolie@chartermi.net>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2009 6:05:46 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power
Larry,
I'm not Mark (you may have guessed), but I have some interesting experience in this venue.
At the same time we (at a contract development lab in Ann Arbor) were building the multi-fuel -OH capable vehicles, we were also contracted to develop and build two dual fuel -LPG vehicles. These were based on a GM platform with a turbo-charged V6. One was a closed loop Impco adapted to the existing throttle body. the other did a step-over conversion to liquid propane at the port injectors.
Both vehicles were scary fast, but the liquid injector had the propensity to be terrifying.
Both would start just fine, but had performance issues when running dead cold (DUH!). Even though the ECU could control maximum boost optimize the spark advance based on a very functional knock detector (slight bow here), the programing had trouble when cold and in the open loop mode until we were just about done with the program.
With the Impco, the problem was withdrawal rate cold. The vapor fuel system had to draw gas of the tank to start and only when the jacket water temperature gets hot enough, can it change over to using the liquid withdrawal system and the vaporizer to feed the engine. This is a good plan unless the cold operation has caused the tank to sub-cool so much that the tank pressure is too low to deliver the liquid to the vaporizer. Then you sit by the side of the road and when you can get it to start you nurse it off to someplace you can warm it up.
The port inject vehicle had its own quirk. You can just imagine the chill of the liquid propane flashing to gas when the injectors were open. This caused a charge air cooling that a sometimes could make the charge in the cold cylinder virtually fire-proof. As above, this also could be worked around with just a little of the patience so rare in young gear-head engineers. NOW, When this vehicle was up to operating temperature, that chilling would cause a charge density increase that allowed it to produce enough horsepower to destroy the first two transmissions.
All the vehicle fuel tanks used were ASTM code and designed for over the road vehicle use and fabricated for us with slosh baffles and an array or fitting not normally found in LP fuel tanks.
There is, in just my humble but experienced opinion) no disadvantage to propane as a vehicle fuel other than the required weight of the fuel tank.
Ah, Memories of spending other peoples money and getting paid to do it. Almost makes me wish I was a Congressman.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
SE Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67239 is a reply to message #67235] |
Sat, 12 December 2009 01:29 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Even CNG stations are hard for find. There are only two in my county and both are only open day shift Monday thru Friday. They are run by the local gas company's and primarily refuel gas company CNG vehicles. The gas company is abandoning CNG vehicles so their two stations may soon disappear all across the state.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67262 is a reply to message #67225] |
Sat, 12 December 2009 12:34 |
Larry C
Messages: 1168
Registered: July 2004
Location: NE Illinois by the Illino...
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Senior Member |
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Both vehicles were scary fast, but the liquid injector had the propensity to be terrifying.
_____________________________________________________________
Does the propane have to feed by liquid to develope the power to the engine?
I had wondered if a line could be used from the on board propane tank for emergency use, ie you run out of gas or supplement the gasoline system?????
Even if you had to limp down the road, you'd still be moving.
LarC ( Once again pretending to be an engineer, only I don't have a train. )
Gatsbys' CRUISER  08-18-04
74 GLACIER X, 260/455-APC-4 Bagg'r
Remflex Manifold gaskets
CampGrounds needed, Add yours to "PLACES" />
http://www.gmceast.com/travel
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67264 is a reply to message #67262] |
Sat, 12 December 2009 12:45 |
powerjon
Messages: 2446
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
The propane is fed as gas to the carb thru various control units.
Just like it feeds your stove, frig and furnace.
J.R. Wright
>
>
> Both vehicles were scary fast, but the liquid injector had the
> propensity to be terrifying.
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> Does the propane have to feed by liquid to develop the power to the
> engine?
>
> I had wondered if a line could be used from the on board propane
> tank for emergency use, ie you run out of gas or supplement the
> gasoline system?????
>
> Even if you had to limp down the road, you'd still be moving.
>
>
> LarC ( Once again pretending to be an engineer, only I don't have a
> train. )
>
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67267 is a reply to message #67262] |
Sat, 12 December 2009 13:43 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| Larry C wrote on Sat, 12 December 2009 13:34 |
Does the propane have to feed by liquid to develop the power to the engine?
I had wondered if a line could be used from the on board propane tank for emergency use, ie you run out of gas or supplement the gasoline system?????
Even if you had to limp down the road, you'd still be moving.
LarC ( Once again pretending to be an engineer, only I don't have a train. )
|
Larry,
The simple answers are No and No.
A typical LPG fuel system uses a vaporized fuel feed to the metering device (it is nothing like any carburetor your know).
When a dual fuel is assembled, there is a gasoline fuel system and an LPG fuel system that are simply both connected to the same engine.
If you were to try to run the coach on the existing LP tank, you could suck that babe dry in relatively short order. The installation would be a lot to drag around for small gain.
The Impco used on a 455 size engine would add about 4" to the height (iirc), and no sane human should pursue the liquid injector bit. The description in the prior post was a vast simplification.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67272 is a reply to message #67267] |
Sat, 12 December 2009 14:54 |
storm'n
Messages: 492
Registered: April 2007
Location: Ont. Can
Karma: 0
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--- On Sat, 12/12/09, Matt Colie <mcolie@chartermi.net> wrote:
Larry C wrote on Sat, 12 December 2009 13:34
> Does the propane have to feed by liquid to develop the power to the engine?
> Yes the tank would have to changed to 1 with a bottom valve for liquid.
> I had wondered if a line could be used from the on board propane tank for emergency use, ie you run out of gas or supplement the gasoline system?????
> you wouldn't have enough vapour for more than an idle.
> Even if you had to limp down the road, you'd still be moving.
>
> LarC ( Once again pretending to be an engineer, only I don't have a train.. )
Larry,
The simple answers are No and No.
A typical LPG fuel system uses a vaporized fuel feed to the metering device (it is nothing like any carburetor your know).
When a dual fuel is assembled, there is a gasoline fuel system and an LPG fuel system that are simply both connected to the same engine.
If you were to try to run the coach on the existing LP tank, you could suck that babe dry in relatively short order. The installation would be a lot to drag around for small gain.
The Impco used on a 455 size engine would add about 4" to the height (iirc), and no sane human should pursue the liquid injector bit. The description in the prior post was a vast simplification.
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
SE Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67307 is a reply to message #67262] |
Sun, 13 December 2009 01:57 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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To the original question; yes, you could run a gas (as in gaseous instead of liquid) line from the tank, same as currently used to feed appliances. To deliver enough fuel it would have to be fairly large unless it were fed upstream from the pressure regulator. A fuel mixing device could be rigged up that wouldn't increase the engine height any, so in theory it would work. However, if that much gas were pulled from the tank the tank would cool very fast to the point that pressure would drop until not much flow would be available. Propane pressure drops to zero at -43F and is only 10 psig at -20. At 70F it is 110 psig and at 125F itis 245 psig. "Real" propane systems pull liquid from the tank and then use an engine-heated pressure regulator/vaporizer to vaporize the fuel. Is it reasonable to think the tank temperature could drop to -20 on a hot day? You bet. Your idea would work, though. Question is, how much power could be developed for how
long. 25 hp for long enough to get to the next fuel stop? Maybe. Enough to get up any kind of a grade? Maybe not. Interesting idea, though.
Gary
________________________________
From: Larry <slawrence111@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 11:34:53 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power
Both vehicles were scary fast, but the liquid injector had the propensity to be terrifying.
_____________________________________________________________
Does the propane have to feed by liquid to develope the power to the engine?
I had wondered if a line could be used from the on board propane tank for emergency use, ie you run out of gas or supplement the gasoline system?????
Even if you had to limp down the road, you'd still be moving.
LarC ( Once again pretending to be an engineer, only I don't have a train. )
--
Gatsbys' CRUISER :d
74 GLACIER X, 260
455/APC/4 bagg'r(ver3)
Remflex Manifold gaskets
_______________________________________________
Purchased 08-18-04
_
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67308 is a reply to message #67307] |
Sun, 13 December 2009 02:12 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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...and if we wrap the air conditioning condensor around that propane
tank we could freeze beef going up the Grapevine in August!
Ljdavick at comcast.net
On Dec 12, 2009, at 11:57 PM, Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com> wrote:
> To the original question; yes, you could run a gas (as in gaseous
> instead of liquid) line from the tank, same as currently used to
> feed appliances. To deliver enough fuel it would have to be fairly
> large unless it were fed upstream from the pressure regulator. A
> fuel mixing device could be rigged up that wouldn't increase the
> engine height any, so in theory it would work. However, if that
> much gas were pulled from the tank the tank would cool very fast to
> the point that pressure would drop until not much flow would be
> available. Propane pressure drops to zero at -43F and is only 10
> psig at -20. At 70F it is 110 psig and at 125F itis 245 psig.
> "Real" propane systems pull liquid from the tank and then use an
> engine-heated pressure regulator/vaporizer to vaporize the fuel. Is
> it reasonable to think the tank temperature could drop to -20 on a
> hot day? You bet. Your idea would work, though. Question is, how
> much power could be developed for how
> long. 25 hp for long enough to get to the next fuel stop? Maybe.
> Enough to get up any kind of a grade? Maybe not. Interesting idea,
> though.
> Gary
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Larry <slawrence111@yahoo.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Sat, December 12, 2009 11:34:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power
>
>
>
> Both vehicles were scary fast, but the liquid injector had the
> propensity to be terrifying.
> _____________________________________________________________
>
> Does the propane have to feed by liquid to develope the power to the
> engine?
>
> I had wondered if a line could be used from the on board propane
> tank for emergency use, ie you run out of gas or supplement the
> gasoline system?????
>
> Even if you had to limp down the road, you'd still be moving.
>
>
> LarC ( Once again pretending to be an engineer, only I don't have a
> train. )
>
>
> --
> Gatsbys' CRUISER :d
> 74 GLACIER X, 260
> 455/APC/4 bagg'r(ver3)
> Remflex Manifold gaskets
> _______________________________________________
> Purchased 08-18-04
>
> _
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67311 is a reply to message #67183] |
Sun, 13 December 2009 04:10 |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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I'm not an engineer, but I did own a 1976 Ford Van that I had converted to Propane in the early 80's.
The Provincial Govn't at the time (81 or 82) brought out a program to convert commercial vehicles to alternate fuels. They were not taxing propane at the same rates as gasoline and still are not here, propane is about 1/2 the price of gas.
The system had to be single fuel for the Govn't rebate. Liquid came from the tank to a vaporizer which used engine coolant. From there it went to a propane throttle body. The system I remember was Impco.
It was installed by one of the Govn't approved conversion places. On the way home it ran like a dog. If I remember I could not get it much over 50mph.. and 40-45 was more typical.
I took it back several times with no real improvement.
Then I heard of a local mechanic who would make it run. From what I remember he just "recurved" the distributor advance. After that it was driveable, but it certainly never had the power on Propane that it had on Gas. And the mileage dropped if I recall about 20-25%
The BIG BENEFIT... that engine was a DOG, typical of the era. After switching to propane I put another 100K on it without a repair.
Just from my experience, I don't think the 455 would have enough power on propane to be a pleasant driving experience.
However now I imagine electronic controls have been applied to the Propane conversions and they are much better.
At one point around here there was a significant number of vehicles on propane (taxis, delivery vans, contractor's pickups) however I think they have dwindled to near zero now. But 3 of the 7 gas stations in my town can pump vehicle propane by the litre.
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67321 is a reply to message #67311] |
Sun, 13 December 2009 09:04 |
storm'n
Messages: 492
Registered: April 2007
Location: Ont. Can
Karma: 0
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Bruce, I was service manger in a R.V. dealership east of Toronto 1983 - 1987. During that period every MH sold [new- used] was converted to duel fuel. No sales tax so the conversion was free and in some of the more expensive MH the customer actually saved money. Cost was $1500- $2000 depending on tank size & length of hoses. We used Vialle kits because the mixer went between the carb & factory air filter & were easy to install. Most dog houses had enough clearance for the air filter. No changes made to the ignition, They ran very well & in most cases idled smoother on propane than gas. Mileage was at least 10% less. We had 1 service truck with an Impco kit.. Cold winter mornings we had to pour hot water over the convertor to get it running & it wouldn't hold a set-up like the Vialle kits.The other service trucks started fine with the Vialles. We did 1 used GMC EL2. Changed the vapour tank to same size with liquid & vapour valves.Had to build up
the engine cover about 2". Ran very nice but would only travel about 60 mi.. on a tank. But it was duel fuel, therefore no sales tax. I believe the progam ended Jan 1 86 . No more conversions after that. In total I think we did at least 300 MH & camper vans.
Norm
I'm not an engineer, but I did own a 1976 Ford Van that I had converted to Propane in the early 80's.
The Provincial Govn't at the time (81 or 82) brought out a program to convert commercial vehicles to alternate fuels. They were not taxing propane at the same rates as gasoline and still are not here, propane is about 1/2 the price of gas.
The system had to be single fuel for the Govn't rebate. Liquid came from the tank to a vaporizer which used engine coolant. From there it went to a propane throttle body. The system I remember was Impco.
It was installed by one of the Govn't approved conversion places. On the way home it ran like a dog. If I remember I could not get it much over 50mph.. and 40-45 was more typical.
I took it back several times with no real improvement.
Then I heard of a local mechanic who would make it run. From what I remember he just "recurved" the distributor advance. After that it was driveable, but it certainly never had the power on Propane that it had on Gas. And the mileage dropped if I recall about 20-25%
The BIG BENEFIT... that engine was a DOG, typical of the era. After switching to propane I put another 100K on it without a repair.
Just from my experience, I don't think the 455 would have enough power on propane to be a pleasant driving experience.
However now I imagine electronic controls have been applied to the Propane conversions and they are much better.
At one point around here there was a significant number of vehicles on propane (taxis, delivery vans, contractor's pickups) however I think they have dwindled to near zero now. But 3 of the 7 gas stations in my town can pump vehicle propane by the litre.
--
Bruce Hislop,
S. Ontario Canada
77PB, 455
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1906
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| Re: [GMCnet] Propane Power [message #67325 is a reply to message #67311] |
Sun, 13 December 2009 09:33 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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| RF_Burns wrote on Sun, 13 December 2009 05:10 |
I'm not an engineer, but I did own a 1976 Ford Van that I had converted to Propane in the early 80's.
The Provincial Govn't at the time (81 or 82) brought out a program to convert commercial vehicles to alternate fuels. They were not taxing propane at the same rates as gasoline and still are not here, propane is about 1/2 the price of gas.
The system had to be single fuel for the Govn't rebate. Liquid came from the tank to a vaporizer which used engine coolant. From there it went to a propane throttle body. The system I remember was Impco.
It was installed by one of the Govn't approved conversion places. On the way home it ran like a dog. If I remember I could not get it much over 50mph.. and 40-45 was more typical.
I took it back several times with no real improvement.
Then I heard of a local mechanic who would make it run. From what I remember he just "recurved" the distributor advance. After that it was driveable, but it certainly never had the power on Propane that it had on Gas. And the mileage dropped if I recall about 20-25%
The BIG BENEFIT... that engine was a DOG, typical of the era. After switching to propane I put another 100K on it without a repair.
Just from my experience, I don't think the 455 would have enough power on propane to be a pleasant driving experience.
However now I imagine electronic controls have been applied to the Propane conversions and they are much better.
At one point around here there was a significant number of vehicles on propane (taxis, delivery vans, contractor's pickups) however I think they have dwindled to near zero now. But 3 of the 7 gas stations in my town can pump vehicle propane by the litre.
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Bruce,
To clear this situation up, let me assure that the loss of performance you saw was not the result of the conversion to LPG fuel. The increase in fuel rate (reduced fuel economy) is a given, but if the Impco was properly installed and the engine was recalibrated for propane that change should be more like 15%. This is assuming that there are no changes in use or driving style.
The funny story here is that a fleet conversion that we were a party to saw a 20~25% increase in fuel consumption in the converted vehicles. We couldn't explain it. We put "flight recorders with many inputs in some of the fleet.
The data was interesting. The LPG vehicles were always the first out by driver choice, and the area under the road speed curve was just about the same (they traveled similar distances), but the average speed was significantly higher. When drivers were queried, it turned out that the LPG vehicles were much more fun to drive.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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