Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Ethanol
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Ethanol [message #66299 is a reply to message #66273] |
Tue, 01 December 2009 17:58   |
fred v
Messages: 999
Registered: April 2006
Location: pensacola, fl.
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
what they really want to know is if higher levels will destroy older cars and get them off the road!! LOL
Fred V
'77 Royale RB 455
P'cola, Fl
|
|
|
|
| Re: Ethanol [message #66301 is a reply to message #66299] |
Tue, 01 December 2009 18:33 |
Chr$
Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Karma: 1
|
Senior Member |
|
|
My truck gets shitty gas mileage with E85 that we have to use here.. No thanks!
-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ
77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"
|
|
|
|
| Re: Ethanol [message #66314 is a reply to message #66301] |
Tue, 01 December 2009 21:32 |
Bmac91724
Messages: 35
Registered: August 2009
Location: Covina CA
Karma: 0
|
Member |
|
|
| Chr$ wrote on Tue, 01 December 2009 16:33 |
My truck gets shitty gas mileage with E85 that we have to use here.. No thanks!
|
It takes about twice as much alcohol to make the same BTUs as a gallon of gas that's why your mileage goes in the toilet. Now figure in the cost per mile plus the added cost of buying green fuel and you'll really hate those who are feeding us this BS.
Brett Mac Donald
1974 23' Canyon Lands
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66460 is a reply to message #66458] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 08:20 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The parts that we were developing for E85 were all stainless steel. I'm not sure what other manufacturers used for hoses, etc., but for our part (ethanol concentration sensor) the customer required SS. No steel fuel tanks allowed. Of course, ethanol is "carbon neutral", but only because the CO2 that goes into the air is "new" carbon as opposed to the "old" carbon of fossil fuels. The contention is that growing the crop pulled CO2 from the air, balancing it out. But that assumes that there would be nothing growing on the land otherwise. Really?
What do the farmers use for fertilizer? fossil-fuel-derived nitrogen. What does the farmer burn in his equipment? Fossil fuel. What powers the distillery? Fossil fuel, of course. If they used ethanol there would be virtually none left to sell. So if just as much fossil fuel is used to make ethanol as the energy output, why use it at all? Government subsidies, of course. You and I are paying for it.
A reasonable rule of thumb is that fuel economy is reduced not quite half as much as there is ethanol. 10% ethanol in the fuel will reduce your mileage by about 6%. It does increase the octane somewhat, but most engines aren't equipped to take advantage of that. Around here I see E85 selling about 15% less than petroleum fuel, and it will likely result in about 30% less mileage. Sorry, I'll pass.
Gary
________________________________
Jeff said:
E-85 will wear out any rubber hose, fitting or gasket
like florida add up to 10-15% ethanol in standard unleaded fuel. This
will most likely NOT damage your existing hoses and gaskets.
My comprehension this early may be lacking but aren't these statements
contradictory?
Roger Black
Burns, TN
77 Birchaven SB
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66463 is a reply to message #66460] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 08:48 |
Jim Bounds
Messages: 842
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Guys, from the other side of the fence, you can debate this issue all day but I have [people every day calling about bad performance. The most heard thng is sputtering going up a hill then performance really drops off. What I have found in every case-- not just a % but in every one--- the carb filter is clogged. A WIX 33052 filter should be in every glove box. Last nigtht coming from the shop here a guy heading back to SC stalled coming off the highway-- clogged filter. Don T. heading toward me from Arlington Tx is down @ 4 hours from home, clogged filter. I'm telling you this ethanol is the problem. Lostening up crap in the gas station tank-- in the coach tank-- I don;t know where but it is clogging our filters. Fuel hoses I installed 2 years ago are cracked and sucking air. Hoses are coming apart & I am in harms way-- it's coming right at me and I'm hunkered down. I'm installing FI hose and appreciate any professional input-- no
wives tales. We all do have a serious issue here-- with the ZDDP out of the oil, ethanol in our gas I feel we are being attacked from all sides!
Right now I have people doubting this, I tell them just carry extra filters and call if I can help-- and they are calling! Take this threat seriously!
Jim Bounds
------------------------------
----- Original Message ----
From: Gary Casey <casey.gary@yahoo.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thu, December 3, 2009 9:20:05 AM
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
The parts that we were developing for E85 were all stainless steel. I'm not sure what other manufacturers used for hoses, etc., but for our part (ethanol concentration sensor) the customer required SS. No steel fuel tanks allowed. Of course, ethanol is "carbon neutral", but only because the CO2 that goes into the air is "new" carbon as opposed to the "old" carbon of fossil fuels. The contention is that growing the crop pulled CO2 from the air, balancing it out. But that assumes that there would be nothing growing on the land otherwise. Really?
What do the farmers use for fertilizer? fossil-fuel-derived nitrogen. What does the farmer burn in his equipment? Fossil fuel. What powers the distillery? Fossil fuel, of course. If they used ethanol there would be virtually none left to sell. So if just as much fossil fuel is used to make ethanol as the energy output, why use it at all? Government subsidies, of course. You and I are paying for it.
A reasonable rule of thumb is that fuel economy is reduced not quite half as much as there is ethanol. 10% ethanol in the fuel will reduce your mileage by about 6%. It does increase the octane somewhat, but most engines aren't equipped to take advantage of that. Around here I see E85 selling about 15% less than petroleum fuel, and it will likely result in about 30% less mileage. Sorry, I'll pass.
Gary
________________________________
Jeff said:
E-85 will wear out any rubber hose, fitting or gasket
like florida add up to 10-15% ethanol in standard unleaded fuel. This
will most likely NOT damage your existing hoses and gaskets.
My comprehension this early may be lacking but aren't these statements
contradictory?
Roger Black
Burns, TN
77 Birchaven SB
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66469 is a reply to message #66466] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 09:14 |
Dennis S
Messages: 3046
Registered: November 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Steve,
What are the conditions of your new hoses that tell you to replace them? I have some fairly new hoses and fid they seem almost soft -- like they are becoming spongy.
Thanks,
Dennis
Dennis Sexton
73 GMC
Germantown, TN
USA
-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 9:01 am
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
I don't doubt it a bit Jim,
All my new hoses need replacing and as I replace them, it will be
ith steel and the newer FI hose using the high pressure hose clamps.
e'll be burning cow manure in 10 years if the greens have their way.
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
Guys, from the other side of the fence, you can debate this issue all day but
have [people every day calling about bad performance. The most heard thng is
puttering going up a hill then performance really drops off. What I have found
n every case-- not just a % but in every one--- the carb filter is clogged. A
IX 33052 filter should be in every glove box.
-
teve Ferguson
76 EII
ierra Vista, AZ
rethane bushing source
ww.bdub.net/ferguson/
______________________________________________
MCnet mailing list
ist Information and Subscription Options:
ttp://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Dennis S
73 Painted Desert 230
Memphis TN Metro
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66475 is a reply to message #66460] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 09:55 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
| Gary Casey wrote on Thu, 03 December 2009 09:20 |
<known correct but non PC statements snipped>
A reasonable rule of thumb is that fuel economy is reduced not quite half as much as there is ethanol. 10% ethanol in the fuel will reduce your mileage by about 6%. It does increase the octane somewhat, but most engines aren't equipped to take advantage of that. Around here I see E85 selling about 15% less than petroleum fuel, and it will likely result in about 30% less mileage. Sorry, I'll pass.
Gary
|
Gary,
That is all true for a modern closed loop control engine. It has been my experience recently with the coach, that ethanol behaves like a non-reactive filler.
In short, 10% ethanol will give just cause just about 10% increase in fuel consumption.
The few people that I know that have E-85 capable vehicles will not buy it because the cost per mile is higher. (They are all engineers with OE here in Michigan.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66477 is a reply to message #66475] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 10:03 |
Gary Casey
Messages: 448
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Good point, Matt. I was going from an energy per gallon basis. A modern engine will "learn" the energy content of the fuel and adjust things accordingly, at least for up to maybe 15% ethanol (E15). For a carburetor with no compensation it would have the effect of going lean, but I'm not sure how much - that would take some calculation :-(. Anyway, would the things that happen be beneficial? Murphy's Law would say no. We're probably stuck with burning up to 10%, hopefully not more.
Hmm, I remember that not too many years ago working on systems for M15 to M85. What happened? Just another fad? Will E85 follow suit and just disappear? I wonder.
Gary
Gary,
That is all true for a modern closed loop control engine. It has been my experience recently with the coach, that ethanol behaves like a non-reactive filler.
In short, 10% ethanol will give just cause just about 10% increase in fuel consumption.
The few people that I know that have E-85 capable vehicles will not buy it because the cost per mile is higher. (They are all engineers with OE here in Michigan.)
Matt
--
Matt & Mary Colie
'73 Glacier 23 Chaumiere (say show-me-air)
SE Michigan
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66509 is a reply to message #66466] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 18:17 |
 |
ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
BURN COW MANURE?!
Not in California. We biologically digest it. Burning is out of the question.
Any idea how far a Prius will go on a load of cow manuer ;~)
Larry Davick
The Mystery Machine
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Ferguson" <botiemad11@gmail.com>
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2009 7:01:53 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
I don't doubt it a bit Jim,
All my new hoses need replacing and as I replace them, it will be
with steel and the newer FI hose using the high pressure hose clamps.
We'll be burning cow manure in 10 years if the greens have their way.
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Guys, from the other side of the fence, you can debate this issue all day but I have [people every day calling about bad performance. The most heard thng is sputtering going up a hill then performance really drops off. What I have found in every case-- not just a % but in every one--- the carb filter is clogged. A WIX 33052 filter should be in every glove box.
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66524 is a reply to message #66456] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 15:03 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
G'day,
Here's a link to the Goodyear web page that lists the kinds of fuel hose
compatible with Ethanol.
http://www.goodyearep.com/ProductListing.aspx?folderid=1036
Before I picked up Double Trouble from Ken Frey in September of 2008 he:
1) dropped, inspected and cleaned the fuel tanks
2) replaced all the fuel lines with SAE 30R6
3) added an in line fuel filter just upstream of the fuel pump
4) cleaned / replaced the fuel filter in the carb
We drove Double Trouble from Philly - Bangor - Niagara Falls - Orlando -
Houston (3500+ miles) with NO fuel supply system problems.
When I was at the COOP last year I dropped the tanks again as I wanted to
see what they looked like. THEY WERE IMMACULATE! Not a spot of rust or
contamination. We replaced the socks on the pickups and put them back up.
This year we drove from Houston - Duluth - Houston (4000+ miles) with NO
fuel supply problems.
Regards,
Rob Mueller
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion-The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion-Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org
[mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Tripp 33
Sent: Friday, 4 December 2009 12:26 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
Hello everyone. I want to confirm your fears about ethanol in fuel for
older vehicles. Ethanol is a nasty chemical that attacks a lot of common
elastomers (rubber) in fuel systems. E-85 will wear out any rubber hose,
fitting or gasket between the fuel tank and the exhaust pipe if it is not
properly updated with current rubber parts.
I know really stupid stuff like this because I am in the rubber business.
The gaskets and hoses you will need to change out must be made with FKM
(fluoroelastomer) commonly known in the industry as Viton made by dupont.
I would be more than happy to post links to the dupont website about ethanol
in current fuels if anyone is interested.
I do want to add that states like florida add up to 10-15% ethanol in
standard unleaded fuel. This will most likely NOT damage your existing
hoses and gaskets.
I hope I was some help to everyone with questions or concerns about ethanol.
Jeff MacMillan
Toledo, OH
1978 Transmode
"Wild Rover"
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol [message #66527 is a reply to message #66469] |
Thu, 03 December 2009 17:07 |
Steven Ferguson
Messages: 3447
Registered: May 2006
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Cracks in the bends. The kind of hose I used would probably never get
squishy. It was the latest and greatest stuff NAPA carried about 8
years ago. Fortunately, I came off of the pickups with SS lines taped
to the top of the tanks so I probably don't have to drop the tanks.
On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 8:14 AM, <dennisfsexton@aol.com> wrote:
>
> Steve,
> What are the conditions of your new hoses that tell you to replace them? I have some fairly new hoses and fid they seem almost soft -- like they are becoming spongy.
>
> Thanks,
> Dennis
>
>
> Dennis Sexton
> 73 GMC
> Germantown, TN
> USA
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steven Ferguson <botiemad11@gmail.com>
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Sent: Thu, Dec 3, 2009 9:01 am
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Ethanol
>
>
> I don't doubt it a bit Jim,
> All my new hoses need replacing and as I replace them, it will be
> ith steel and the newer FI hose using the high pressure hose clamps.
> e'll be burning cow manure in 10 years if the greens have their way.
> On Thu, Dec 3, 2009 at 7:48 AM, Jim Bounds <gmccoop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Guys, from the other side of the fence, you can debate this issue all day but
> have [people every day calling about bad performance. The most heard thng is
> puttering going up a hill then performance really drops off. What I have found
> n every case-- not just a % but in every one--- the carb filter is clogged. A
> IX 33052 filter should be in every glove box.
> -
> teve Ferguson
> 76 EII
> ierra Vista, AZ
> rethane bushing source
> ww.bdub.net/ferguson/
> ______________________________________________
> MCnet mailing list
> ist Information and Subscription Options:
> ttp://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> List Information and Subscription Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Steve Ferguson
'76 EII
Sierra Vista, AZ
Urethane bushing source
www.bdub.net/ferguson/
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
List Information and Subscription Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Mon Oct 28 07:17:15 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01963 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
