Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Fitting high capacity AGM's (what to buy and how to install? )
| Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367705] |
Fri, 26 November 2021 12:03  |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
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Hi all, I'm in line to get a pair of used (but well within service life) Lifeline 300AH AGM batteries. They are big marine deep-cycle units weighing 90lbs apiece and physically able to fit in the battery compartment (if I can manage to pick them up, that is  )
These batteries
https://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-6ct/https://lifelinebatteries.com/products/marine-batteries/gpl-6ct/
John Lebetski, Bruce Hislop, Billy Massey and I have discussed the implications of installing these beasts, i.e. the effect on the alternator if used as a "drop-in" replacement without any modifications.
I have to admit that I don't understand the science or math behind the problem, but I do get the point that the alternator would be overworked constantly trying to bring the battery bank up from a state of low charge, resulting in a cooked alternator. We don't want that.
Charging from the Onan/shore power via the converter would be ok as my converter has an AGP accessory port.
The solution suggested by Bruce was to install a DC-DC charger and wire it in parallel with the converter. I get that. I plan to get either the 40amp or maybe the 20amp Renogy unit as they seems fairly affordable compared to the others I saw out there.
https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=Renogy+40A+DC+to+DC&i=automotive&ref=nb_sb_nosshttps://www.amazon.ca/s?k=Renogy+40A+DC+to+DC&i=automotive&ref=nb_sb_noss
Even though hooking up the charger "in paralell" to the converter may seem like a fundamental job to an electrician, I'm afraid I find it a mite intimidating, both as far as the physical location and hookup goes. At first I thought I could locate it in the electrical compartment next to the converter but because these Renogy units don't have auto switching and require an "ignition on" connection to switch on, I started thinking maybe the best place would be up front on the firewall?
If that location on the firewall is a possibility, could I also connect the main terminals of the charger there?
Do I need to fit a Yandina combiner too?
As the batteries (chassis lead-acid)are different types, will the AGP's drain the chassis battery or vise-versa? OTOH, am I overthinking this whole thing? 
TIA for any input,
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367714 is a reply to message #367711] |
Sat, 27 November 2021 13:50  |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
Karma: 4
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RF_Burns wrote on Sat, 27 November 2021 07:57Lots of good info on this site re batteries and charging. Its a boating site, but applies to RV's as well
Read here:
https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/
and here
https://marinehowto.com/alternators-voltage-sensing/
and the links here
https://marinehowto.com/category/electrical/batteries/
Well great info but sure a lot to digest for what I initially imagined would be a simple battery swap.
As I don't seem to be any further ahead on placement of the DC-DC charger and the relationship between the Onan/converter/alternator/isolator and how that relates to the existing system, I'm thinking I might just abandon this opportunity of acquiring these AGM batteries (for a song btw) and head over to the local Costco for a couple of 6v golf cart units. I'm not even sure whether the AGM batteries would be fully chargeable even if I added the DC-DC charger.
oh well.
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367719 is a reply to message #367718] |
Sat, 27 November 2021 18:47 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
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Thanks Bruce, appreciate your help and guidance.
If I could see a hookup for adding a DC-DC charger to a system like my own, chassis battery up front connected to an isolator that via the alternator charges both chassis and house bank - and - a converter/shore connection that only charges the house bank then I'd be set.
I can't imagine I'd be the first guy adding AGP batteries to a TZE, but you never know.
All the best
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367722 is a reply to message #367714] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 04:01 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Just another thought for you. Lots of people (including me) have been putting a pair golf batteries in GMCs for years using the the original 80 amp or upgraded 100 amp alternators with no problems. I believe the golf cart batteries are rated around 215 for a 20 hour draw, while your proposed ones are rated around 300. Since both types of batteries should not be discharged more than 50 % the amount of charging current they will draw will probably be withing manageable rates as is.
There are other variables you have not considered including the voltage drop of 20+ feet of cable and the fact that most alternators will not put out their rated current when they get warmed up.
Most batteries will not take a much of charge until they warmed up and the reverse EMF gets higher as they start charging charging rate.
Some alternators also reduce the charging voltage as they warm up.
What about single belt alternator pulley slippage. Will it be a problem?
The GMC as deigned has a 50 amp CB in line to the rear so you should never be able to draw more than that going to your house batteries.
There are just too many variables to guess at and engineer around. I am suggesting that you hold up on the modifications and see if you really have a problem before you try applying a solution to fix it.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| [GMCnet] Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367727 is a reply to message #367722] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 08:52 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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My comments to Larry were essentially the same as Ken's. My combined
battery capacity is similar to two 6V GC batteries (except dual 12V's
connected via an A/B switch - single battery when discharging, dual
batteries when charging) and AFAIK AGM batteries are similar chemistry
as flooded lead acid. I'm thinking about replacing my upfront coach
battery with dual 6V GC batteries when it's time for replacement.
I've never had issues (other than one alternator years ago), even though
we usually dry camp - often for up to 5-7 days at a time.
But I definitely lean towards KISS principles, especially for my camping
vehicle.
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2021-11-28 2:01 a.m., Ken Burton wrote:
> Just another thought for you. Lots of people (including me) have been putting a pair golf batteries in GMCs for years using the the original 80 amp
> or upgraded 100 amp alternators with no problems. I believe the golf cart batteries are rated around 215 for a 20 hour draw, while your proposed ones
> are rated around 300. Since both types of batteries should not be discharged more than 50 % the amount of charging current they will draw will
> probably be withing manageable rates as is.
>
> There are other variables you have not considered including the voltage drop of 20+ feet of cable and the fact that most alternators will not put out
> their rated current when they get warmed up.
>
> Most batteries will not take a much of charge until they warmed up and the reverse EMF gets higher as they start charging charging rate.
>
> Some alternators also reduce the charging voltage as they warm up.
>
> What about single belt alternator pulley slippage. Will it be a problem?
>
> The GMC as deigned has a 50 amp CB in line to the rear so you should never be able to draw more than that going to your house batteries.
>
> There are just too many variables to guess at and engineer around. I am suggesting that you hold up on the modifications and see if you really have a
> problem before you try applying a solution to fix it.
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367729 is a reply to message #367714] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 13:37 |
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Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
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Larry,
AGM batteries are not totally different battery chemistry, like lithium ion - I think of them as basically spill-proof and maintenance-free lead acid batteries. My Birchaven came with two Optima Red Top house batteries that were 5 years old, and I continued using them without issue for another 6 years. I have an isolator and a Blue Sea Combiner with a Progressive Dynamics PD9260.
You might want to change your existing converter/charger setup with the big AGMs because of the battery charging time if they are pretty deeply depleted, but without knowing your boondocking and battery use, it isn't necessarily mandatory.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367730 is a reply to message #367705] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 15:11 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Larry,
AGM is an abbreviation for Absorbed Glass Mat. All that it really means is that there is no loose electrolyte (acid) in the cells.
They get most of their advantage from being tightly packed in the case. Because of this, they can use purer lead than a typical flooded cell. That lack of antimony and calcium means that there is less wrong material in the system to foul thing up. This is why they last longer and outgas much less. It also has the advantage of making the assembled cells have lower internal resistance and that is why they can charge faster of discharge harder than the flooded cells.
It has been my experience that if properly cared for, they will out last flooded cells. It has also been my experience that if allowed to be depleted and left that way, they will loose capacity just like any other lead-acid battery. There is a better chance of recovery if caught quickly and brought back up to density, they may recover. I have only managed to do this once. (The client was delighted.)
If you are going to put them all the way in the rear left corner, do not worry about overloading the alternator. That is a 23ft problem because the run from the engine to the bank is so much shorter. When your system is complete, the line loss to the bank will be enough to limit the charging current.
Chaumière has two converters for the strangest of reasons. When dry camping, I want to be able to recover the house bank with a minimum of generator time.
with the converter where it is installed, it is 20' of wire to the house bank and that is just one way. The best that the 45amp converter could ever do was about 30 (27.8 measured) amps looking at a battery at a 50%SOC. So I was looking at a 5 hour charge to get to 90~95%. That was bad in the campground. So, I added a 60 amp converter that because of the different case size could be really close to the hose bank and now I could charge at 58Amps so it was about 2-1/2 hours to 95%. I only use the high rate when I really need it.
While 100 amperes is a practical limit for a single belt 12V (Nom) alternator, the belt slippage is a 23' problem. Again, that is a combination of things that is the low line loss (short cables) to between the alternator and the bank and the high output machine coupled to the high idle speed of the cold engine. Most coaches never have the problem. I did measure 98 amps at a cold start with a depleted bank and an 80 amp alternator. That was when I knew I had to change things.
All that said, If you can make those guys fit in there, they will be happy and you should be as well for a very long time.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367731 is a reply to message #367705] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 19:27 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
Karma: 4
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Appreciate all the tips guys, maybe I will be ok just sticking them in there and adding the AGM module to my IOTA55 amp converter.
This is my typical usage situation. I have no shore power where I store the coach so charging at home base in a no go. I very rarely camp with hookups at the moment, almost always boondocking within 100 miles of home base. I use the house batteries for interior lighting (all led's), water pump, fridge, charging flashlight/phones/computer and early/late season furnace. That's it.
Back in March, when I knew nothing about TZE's or motorhomes in general, I bought the coach with a dead 12v house battery. My first instinct was to get a new battery in there so I could get the systems up and running.
Because I didn't know any better, I couldn't see the point of buying 2 6v units so I bought the largest single 12v deep-cycle battery that would fit. Keep in mind that I didn't really have a clue what AMP hours meant in practical terms back then.
Fast forward to the summer when I started seriously using the coach. I'd switch on the fridge for a day before taking off and even though it was on propane, overnight the eyebrow control board and fan took enough amps to knock the battery down to the 11v range. After a run of course it came back up but it's been a constant PIA especially when I've left the porch light on and things like that. The biggest draw of course was late in the season when I started running the furnace. Those 8 amps took the battery down to the 9v's and sometimes 8v's, so I'd have to start the Onan using the boost switch.
Basically I don't have enough reserve power with that 120AH 12v battery.
When I was offered the 300AH AGP batteries, I thought I'd be in fine shape next season - perhaps I will!
I just don't want to kill the AGP's by over or undercharging. From what I've gleaned over the last little while, AGP's are very sensitive in that dept. and continuous over or under charge will permanently damage them.
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| [GMCnet] Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367732 is a reply to message #367731] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 19:48 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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I find it interesting that your IOTA has an AGM module and when I look at the specs for my Progressive Dynamics unit - they mention that they fully support proper charging of AGM batteries, out of the box. That tends to follow what I know about them - they are very close to plug-in replacements for flooded lead acid batteries.
My use case is very similar to yours - but when I’m on my first 120 AH battery (true deep cycle - lots of deep cycle batteries are actually hybrid marine starting/deep-cycle batteries) will last for days (probably 5 days, less with furnace usage). My second battery is smaller - 100AH (a #24) and usually when I have to change over, I use that as my trigger to charge (either Onan or engine, depending on the plans).
I get a GOOD charge from relatively short runs (usually 100-200km?) between campgrounds. My 70A PD convertor charges pretty quickly as well - but I’ve never really quantified it.
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
> On Nov 28, 2021, at 5:27 PM, twlldeen@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Appreciate all the tips guys, maybe I will be ok just sticking them in there and adding the AGM module to my IOTA55 amp converter.
>
> This is my typical usage situation. I have no shore power where I store the coach so charging at home base in a no go. I very rarely camp with hookups
> at the moment, almost always boondocking within 100 miles of home base. I use the house batteries for interior lighting (all led's), water pump,
> fridge, charging flashlight/phones/computer and early/late season furnace. That's it.
>
> Back in March, when I knew nothing about TZE's or motorhomes in general, I bought the coach with a dead 12v house battery. My first instinct was to
> get a new battery in there so I could get the systems up and running.
> Because I didn't know any better, I couldn't see the point of buying 2 6v units so I bought the largest single 12v deep-cycle battery that would fit.
> Keep in mind that I didn't really have a clue what AMP hours meant in practical terms back then.
>
> Fast forward to the summer when I started seriously using the coach. I'd switch on the fridge for a day before taking off and even though it was on
> propane, overnight the eyebrow control board and fan took enough amps to knock the battery down to the 11v range. After a run of course it came back
> up but it's been a constant PIA especially when I've left the porch light on and things like that. The biggest draw of course was late in the season
> when I started running the furnace. Those 8 amps took the battery down to the 9v's and sometimes 8v's, so I'd have to start the Onan using the boost
> switch.
>
> Basically I don't have enough reserve power with that 120AH 12v battery.
>
> When I was offered the 300AH AGP batteries, I thought I'd be in fine shape next season - perhaps I will!
> I just don't want to kill the AGP's by over or undercharging. From what I've gleaned over the last little while, AGP's are very sensitive in that
> dept. and continuous over or under charge will permanently damage them.
>
> Larry
>
>
> --
> Larry - Victoria BC -
>
> 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
> exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367733 is a reply to message #367732] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 21:04 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
Karma: 4
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Rob wrote on Sun, 28 November 2021 17:48I find it interesting that your IOTA has an AGM module and when I look at the specs for my Progressive Dynamics unit - they mention that they fully support proper charging of AGM batteries, out of the box. That tends to follow what I know about them - they are very close to plug-in replacements for flooded lead acid batteries.
My use case is very similar to yours - but when I’m on my first 120 AH battery (true deep cycle - lots of deep cycle batteries are actually hybrid marine starting/deep-cycle batteries) will last for days (probably 5 days, less with furnace usage). My second battery is smaller - 100AH (a #24) and usually when I have to change over, I use that as my trigger to charge (either Onan or engine, depending on the plans).
I get a GOOD charge from relatively short runs (usually 100-200km?) between campgrounds. My 70A PD convertor charges pretty quickly as well - but I’ve never really quantified it.
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
Rob - my IOTA has various plug-in gizmos (gizmii?) to suit whatever chemistry you are running, even LiFePo4.
https:// www.iotaengineering.com/products/detail/1195175/iota/iq4-agm-smart-charge-controller/3-stage-smart-charge-controller-for-the-iota-dls-tailored-absorpt ion-charging-for-agm-batteries#specSheet
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| [GMCnet] Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367734 is a reply to message #367733] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 21:11 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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Yes - I saw that when reading about your converter. But Progressive Dynamics indicates their converter works with AGM out of the box:
https://www.progressivedyn.com/service/frequently-asked-questions/
Lithium batteries are VERY different chemistry and have very different charging requirements.
Rob
76 Royale Twin Beds, Dry Bath
Victoria, BC
> On Nov 28, 2021, at 7:04 PM, wrote:
>
> Rob - my IOTA has various plug-in gizmos (gizmii?) to suit whatever chemistry you are running, even LiFePo4.
>
> https://www.iotaengineering.com/products/detail/1195175/iota/iq4-agm-smart-charge-controller/3-stage-smart-charge-controller-for-the-iota-dls-tailored -absorption-charging-for-agm-batteries#specSheet
>
> Larry
>
>
> --
> Larry - Victoria BC -
>
> 1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS
> exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367735 is a reply to message #367705] |
Sun, 28 November 2021 21:35 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
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Anyway Rob, it ain't the converter side of things I'm concerned about, it's the alternator side.
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367736 is a reply to message #367735] |
Mon, 29 November 2021 10:01 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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boybach wrote on Sun, 28 November 2021 22:35Anyway Rob, it ain't the converter side of things I'm concerned about, it's the alternator side.
Larry
OK Larry,
Now that we have the whole story...
Let's start with the fact that you 120AH battery was undersize (all of us with experience know this all to well). What you also may not know is that your current house battery is probably not 120 today. It only takes a couple of runs below 10V to hurt it. Depending on who you read, a 50% discharge is 11.8~12.0V and below that for much time at all is damaging. That be as it may, you now have a good set to cram in there.
Given you specific situation, there are two things to not worry about. Use the OE charging system as it was built. It will be just fine. I do not know if you have the 80 or 100 amp 27SI in there, but that is little matter. Those machines are well enough protected on their own. If it still has a single belt, you can't hurt it. Even with the double belt, that #4 wire and the 50 amp breaker will effectively protect your charging system. It may take a lot of driving time to recover the house bank.
That Iota converter is just what you need, leave it alone. But, you knew that.
As you store the coach without shore power, I suggest that you get some solar onboard. You can start with a 5~10 watt panel in a sunny window just to keep the house bank at full density.
I think you are in good shape on your current track. Most of all, you are enjoying the coach. That is what so many miss getting to.
Matt Colie
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367737 is a reply to message #367736] |
Mon, 29 November 2021 12:10 |
mghamms
Messages: 466
Registered: March 2016
Location: Ware, Massachusetts
Karma: 2
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Go with Matt's advice.
You will not regret the choice.
What are you paying for the batteries?
1977 Kingsley 455 as stock as it gets except lots of Ragusa parts
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367738 is a reply to message #367737] |
Mon, 29 November 2021 18:50 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
Karma: 4
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mghamms wrote on Mon, 29 November 2021 10:10Go with Matt's advice.
You will not regret the choice.
What are you paying for the batteries?
One hundred and twenty five C$ apiece tax incl.
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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| Re: Fitting high capacity AGM's [message #367739 is a reply to message #367736] |
Mon, 29 November 2021 18:53 |
boybach
Messages: 566
Registered: December 2020
Location: Vancouver Island
Karma: 4
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Matt Colie wrote on Mon, 29 November 2021 08:01 It may take a lot of driving time to recover the house bank.
That Iota converter is just what you need, leave it alone. But, you knew that.
As you store the coach without shore power, I suggest that you get some solar onboard. You can start with a 5~10 watt panel in a sunny window just to keep the house bank at full density.
I think you are in good shape on your current track. Most of all, you are enjoying the coach. That is what so many miss getting to.
Matt Colie
Thanks for the vote of confidence Matt. Regarding this solar panel in the window, how to I hook it up to charge the house bank?
Larry
Larry - Victoria BC -
1977 ex-Palm Beach "Ol' Leaky" 40,000 miles, PO said everything working but forgot the word NOT. Atwood helium fridge, water heater & furnace. SS exhaust system, Onan, Iota Converter, R134A, New fuel lines & heat exchange hoses
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