Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering
| Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367041] |
Mon, 04 October 2021 16:56  |
MikeB
Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama
Karma: 1
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I’m not an expert on front suspension dynamics. I’m more of a “replace the part and take it for a front end alignment guy”. So I need suggestions on best path forward. When I bought my coach the PO had rebuilt the steering column and box and had a front in alignment just a few years prior. However the upper ball joint popped loose when I was bringing it home and so I had all new ball joints (lowers were pretty worn as well) installed. Then I had a front end alignment and in doing so my steering wheel and box are off center.
Now that I have it in the air I’m thinking of locking my wheels facing forward, disconnecting drag link from pitman arm then readjusting suspension in order to maintain alignment and return steering box/wheel to center. So would it be better to adjust the tie rod assembly’s or the drag link...or both?
Thanks
M Beam
75’ Avion
TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al
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| [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367044 is a reply to message #367041] |
Mon, 04 October 2021 17:35  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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If it has ever been to a front end alignment shop, both the drag link as
well as the tie rod ends will more than likely need serious attention.
Kinda wondering about your upper ball joint failure. Never seen one fail.
Have seen them loose enough to need replacement, but for the most part, it
is the lowers that break and fail.
Don't know about your steering box either. Alex F. is the go to guy to
center those up I think. A couple of others here on the net also know the
procedure. But, now is the best time to get'er done. Specs are 0 degrees
camber, 3 to 5 degrees (both the same) caster, and start with 1/16" toe in.
How I do them.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Mon, Oct 4, 2021, 2:56 PM wrote:
> I’m not an expert on front suspension dynamics. I’m more of a “replace the
> part and take it for a front end alignment guy”. So I need
> suggestions on best path forward. When I bought my coach the PO had
> rebuilt the steering column and box and had a front in alignment just a few
> years
> prior. However the upper ball joint popped loose when I was bringing it
> home and so I had all new ball joints (lowers were pretty worn as well)
> installed. Then I had a front end alignment and in doing so my steering
> wheel and box are off center.
>
> Now that I have it in the air I’m thinking of locking my wheels facing
> forward, disconnecting drag link from pitman arm then readjusting suspension
> in order to maintain alignment and return steering box/wheel to center.
> So would it be better to adjust the tie rod assembly’s or the drag
> link...or both?
>
> Thanks
> --
> M Beam
> 75’ Avion
> TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
> Zuki Sidekick,
> Dozier Al
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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| Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367046 is a reply to message #367041] |
Mon, 04 October 2021 19:06 |
MikeB
Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama
Karma: 1
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Hi Jim
The upper ball joint popped up due to the bolts coming out. It was an intense moment driving up a steep lakeside mountain road in Montana after it rained (with towed) spinning tires and losing momentum. I had to put new bolts in at the RV park then took it to have them replaced.
I figured since the PO centered the steering wheel and aligned the box that they are still aligned. My thinking was pop the pitman loose, straighten the wheel and adjust everything enough for the drag link to align with the pitman new position.
M Beam
75’ Avion
TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al
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| [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367047 is a reply to message #367041] |
Mon, 04 October 2021 19:16 |
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Here's some pages to explore
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/search.php?searchid=381194
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6588-steering-box.html
On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 4:56 PM wrote:
> I’m not an expert on front suspension dynamics. I’m more of a “replace the
> part and take it for a front end alignment guy”. So I need
> suggestions on best path forward. When I bought my coach the PO had
> rebuilt the steering column and box and had a front in alignment just a few
> years
> prior. However the upper ball joint popped loose when I was bringing it
> home and so I had all new ball joints (lowers were pretty worn as well)
> installed. Then I had a front end alignment and in doing so my steering
> wheel and box are off center.
>
> Now that I have it in the air I’m thinking of locking my wheels facing
> forward, disconnecting drag link from pitman arm then readjusting suspension
> in order to maintain alignment and return steering box/wheel to center.
> So would it be better to adjust the tie rod assembly’s or the drag
> link...or both?
>
> Thanks
> --
> M Beam
> 75’ Avion
> TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
> Zuki Sidekick,
> Dozier Al
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
bdub
bdub.net
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| Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367049 is a reply to message #367041] |
Mon, 04 October 2021 21:00 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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You need to adjust tie rods to get idler and relay straight with wheels straight. By this I mean parallel to frame. Then adjust the drag link so box is centered (equal turns from each side) and input flat parallel to cover flat. You need to pull the intermediate shaft to see the flat. Pull the horn pad or button and make sure the wheel scribe is on the same spline as the upper column scribe and lock the assembly at 12. Now with the steering at 12 and the box on center if you get lucky the intermediate shaft will align to the center of the 3 possible splines at the box (drill bit test) and align to the column so that the bolt fits centered on the relief cut. If it does not, then you have to reclock the incorrectly assembled intermediate shaft on the bench. It can be off by 90° increments at the blue or finer errors at the splines and CV assembly. Once the puzzle is correct it should drop right in. Now you know wheel straight means box is on center. Test drive and if wheel is off adjust tie rods equally to get it straight. The adj drag link should only be used for a couple degrees of final centering. If that is messed with, the box will be on center with wheel centered, but parallelism of steering linkages will be off center.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367053 is a reply to message #367049] |
Mon, 04 October 2021 23:15 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 7:00 PM John R. Lebetski
wrote:
> You need to adjust tie rods to get idler and relay straight with wheels
> straight. By this I mean parallel to frame. Then adjust the drag link so box
> is centered (equal turns from each side) and input flat parallel to cover
> flat. You need to pull the intermediate shaft to see the flat. Pull the
> horn pad or button and make sure the wheel scribe is on the same spline as
> the upper column scribe and lock the assembly at 12. Now with the steering
> at 12 and the box on center if you get lucky the intermediate shaft will
> align to the center of the 3 possible splines at the box (drill bit test)
> and
> align to the column so that the bolt fits centered on the relief cut. If
> it does not, then you have to reclock the incorrectly assembled intermediate
> shaft on the bench. It can be off by 90° increments at the blue or finer
> errors at the splines and CV assembly. Once the puzzle is correct it should
> drop right in. Now you know wheel straight means box is on center. Test
> drive and if wheel is off adjust tie rods equally to get it straight. The
> adj
> drag link should only be used for a couple degrees of final centering. If
> that is messed with, the box will be on center with wheel centered, but
> parallelism of steering linkages will be off center.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367054 is a reply to message #367053] |
Mon, 04 October 2021 23:31 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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One must use the proper upper arm grommets in order to get the proper
caster.
Do not let the alignment shop use their specs in their expensive machine as
it relates to the Bias Belted tires which goes back to the 1970's and
cannot be changed.
Contact me and I will get you info .
By the way Alex Ferrara taught us well till he passed away couple weeks ago.
On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 9:15 PM Jim Kanomata wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 4, 2021 at 7:00 PM John R. Lebetski
> wrote:
>
>> You need to adjust tie rods to get idler and relay straight with wheels
>> straight. By this I mean parallel to frame. Then adjust the drag link so box
>> is centered (equal turns from each side) and input flat parallel to
>> cover flat. You need to pull the intermediate shaft to see the flat. Pull
>> the
>> horn pad or button and make sure the wheel scribe is on the same spline
>> as the upper column scribe and lock the assembly at 12. Now with the
>> steering
>> at 12 and the box on center if you get lucky the intermediate shaft will
>> align to the center of the 3 possible splines at the box (drill bit test)
>> and
>> align to the column so that the bolt fits centered on the relief cut. If
>> it does not, then you have to reclock the incorrectly assembled intermediate
>> shaft on the bench. It can be off by 90° increments at the blue or finer
>> errors at the splines and CV assembly. Once the puzzle is correct it should
>> drop right in. Now you know wheel straight means box is on center. Test
>> drive and if wheel is off adjust tie rods equally to get it straight. The
>> adj
>> drag link should only be used for a couple degrees of final centering.
>> If that is messed with, the box will be on center with wheel centered, but
>> parallelism of steering linkages will be off center.
>> --
>> John Lebetski
>> Woodstock, IL
>> 77 Eleganza II
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata ASE
> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.gmcrvparts.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367055 is a reply to message #367041] |
Tue, 05 October 2021 09:05 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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I call them the ‘Lenzi specs’ as he was my source. He glanced at my 77 and saw all cams were in about center of range. Room to move as needed. You want as much inboard rear cam and neutral front cam as you can get to pull the upper arm rearward adding caster. You can only go so far or camber starts to go negative as they interact. Also one side will be the limiting factor so you have to stop there to keep caster balanced. I ended up just over 4° where the camber would go negative from 0° if I kept going. Then set toe to zero on center. Done. No pull on test drive. I used the Jerry Work alignment kit at home. I did not use offset bushings as a 77.
So as much equal positive caster as you can get, before camber goes negative, then zero toe w steering linkage/ box on center.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367058 is a reply to message #367041] |
Tue, 05 October 2021 10:45 |
MikeB
Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Just FYI this was the alignment specs used:
0 Camber, +3 Caster, 0 Toe
I know it’s not ideal but I think it’s close.
John
Thanks for all the instructions. Currently it’s a little bit of a foreign Language to me but I’ll do some studying up and try to follow the steps.
M Beam
75’ Avion
TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al
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| [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367063 is a reply to message #367061] |
Tue, 05 October 2021 15:05 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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No, the OEM bushings were NOT offset -- the center tube, through which the
"pivot pins" pass are in the center of the bushings . They are equipped
with adjustable cams, which are used to adjust the pivot pins for the
bushings toward or away from the frame. Offset bushings have the center
tube off center, so that, by positioning the bushing toward or away from
the frame, the range of the still-used adjustable cams is relocated toward
or away from the frame by the amount of the offset.
In other words, if the adjustable cams can change caster between 0 and +3
degrees, the use of one degree offset bushings would change that range to
+1 to +4 degrees (or, if installed "backward", to -1 to +2 degrees).
HTH rather than adds to the confusion,
Ken H.
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 3:10 PM wrote:
> Did the factory not have offset bushings? Mine appears to have adjustable
> cams.
> --
> M Beam
> 75’ Avion
> TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
> Zuki Sidekick,
> Dozier Al
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367064 is a reply to message #367041] |
Tue, 05 October 2021 15:20 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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In addition to what Ken correctly said, remember also that these coaches
were designed around bias ply tires. For the most part, we are all driving
on radial tires now. The contact spot with the road on radials is about 4"
towards the rear of the coach when compared to the bias ply tires. So
alignment specs for radials are a bit different than bias ply. More to it
than that, but that is enough confusion for one visit.
Jim Hupy
Salem,Oregon
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 1:06 PM Ken Henderson wrote:
> No, the OEM bushings were NOT offset -- the center tube, through which the
> "pivot pins" pass are in the center of the bushings . They are equipped
> with adjustable cams, which are used to adjust the pivot pins for the
> bushings toward or away from the frame. Offset bushings have the center
> tube off center, so that, by positioning the bushing toward or away from
> the frame, the range of the still-used adjustable cams is relocated toward
> or away from the frame by the amount of the offset.
>
> In other words, if the adjustable cams can change caster between 0 and +3
> degrees, the use of one degree offset bushings would change that range to
> +1 to +4 degrees (or, if installed "backward", to -1 to +2 degrees).
>
> HTH rather than adds to the confusion,
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 3:10 PM wrote:
>
>> Did the factory not have offset bushings? Mine appears to have adjustable
>> cams.
>> --
>> M Beam
>> 75’ Avion
>> TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
>> Zuki Sidekick,
>> Dozier Al
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367065 is a reply to message #367064] |
Tue, 05 October 2021 16:14 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Caster is the most important, we have found 3-4 degrees were good and
slight negative toe. Camber can be slightly negative
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:21 PM James Hupy wrote:
> In addition to what Ken correctly said, remember also that these coaches
> were designed around bias ply tires. For the most part, we are all driving
> on radial tires now. The contact spot with the road on radials is about 4"
> towards the rear of the coach when compared to the bias ply tires. So
> alignment specs for radials are a bit different than bias ply. More to it
> than that, but that is enough confusion for one visit.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem,Oregon
>
> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021, 1:06 PM Ken Henderson wrote:
>
>> No, the OEM bushings were NOT offset -- the center tube, through which
> the
>> "pivot pins" pass are in the center of the bushings . They are equipped
>> with adjustable cams, which are used to adjust the pivot pins for the
>> bushings toward or away from the frame. Offset bushings have the center
>> tube off center, so that, by positioning the bushing toward or away from
>> the frame, the range of the still-used adjustable cams is relocated
> toward
>> or away from the frame by the amount of the offset.
>>
>> In other words, if the adjustable cams can change caster between 0 and +3
>> degrees, the use of one degree offset bushings would change that range to
>> +1 to +4 degrees (or, if installed "backward", to -1 to +2 degrees).
>>
>> HTH rather than adds to the confusion,
>>
>> Ken H.
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 3:10 PM wrote:
>>
>>> Did the factory not have offset bushings? Mine appears to have
> adjustable
>>> cams.
>>> --
>>> M Beam
>>> 75’ Avion
>>> TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
>>> Zuki Sidekick,
>>> Dozier Al
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
--
Jim Kanomata ASE
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.gmcrvparts.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367068 is a reply to message #367065] |
Tue, 05 October 2021 18:52 |
Bill Van Vlack
Messages: 419
Registered: September 2015
Location: Guemes Island, Washington
Karma: 14
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Senior Member |
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Here's a procedure that I think will work while the wheels are up to see if the box is centered. First, turn the steering wheel lock to lock and count turns - checking that the LCAs do not hit the knuckle (this proves that the steering box has the proper internal stops) and then return the steering wheel to center and see if the relay and idler arms are pointing directly fore and aft. If they are, then no matter where the wheels are pointing the steering wheel, lower steering column, and steering box are clocked correctly. If they aren't, you can follow John L's procedure to fix that.
(Comments welcome from the experts here)
Assuming you find that things are centered you now have to address the wheels. If the wheels are not pointing straight down the road, clamp the steering wheel so that it doesn't turn and then use the tie rod ends and drag link to get them straight while making sure that the tie rods end up about in the middle of their adjustment span. If toe is way out, it's probably best to do a preliminary toe adjustment first before clamping the steering wheel so that when you end up with everything in line you don't have to ruin your perfectly balanced tie rod positions to get proper toe.
Bill Van Vlack
'76 Royale; Guemes Island, Washington; Twin bed, full (DS) side bath, Brazilian Redwood counter and settee tops,455, 6KW generator; new owner a/o mid November 2015.
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| Re: Readjustment to return to correctly aligned steering [message #367079 is a reply to message #367041] |
Wed, 06 October 2021 10:19 |
MikeB
Messages: 133
Registered: December 2018
Location: South Bama
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Thanks to all.
John
Thanks for the detailed description. I’m not sure I have to start from scratch but I may just to ensure it’s all correct.
Bill M
Thanks for the links
JimK
I’ll probably be getting those offset bushings if I can’t get current set up running. satisfactory. Thanks
Ken
Thanks for that description. My initial quick scan of your response I thought ...uh...nope. Then actually reading it made perfect sense. Very clear description of the offset bushings.
Bill V
Thanks for your post. It’s what I was hoping to read. The PO had the steering rack and box rebuilt and had COOP do the clocking of both. So I hoping it’s a drag link, tie rod adjustment deal before I dive in.
Thanks again
M Beam
75’ Avion
TBI EBL , 3.70 LSD and other stuff
Zuki Sidekick,
Dozier Al
[Updated on: Wed, 06 October 2021 10:20] Report message to a moderator |
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