Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Re: Distributor seized up, ( DATA )
[GMCnet] Re: Distributor seized up, ( DATA ) [message #366701] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 10:43 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465 Registered: October 2010 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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I told Ken Shaffer last night. To mark a stick. As to the distance from the top of the intermediate oil pump shaft. To the top of the engine block. At the distributor hole. He then came to my house this morning. So, we could compare the distance between his 455. And a rebuilt 455 that I have laying around here. On an engine stand. Ken's shaft is .470-inch higher in the block than mine. Ken S intermediate shaft is 8.062 in. Ken H has measured two shafts. At 8.125, and 8.187 in. So, Ken S saft is the shortest already. Then there's another issue. By shimming the distributor up. The distributor drive gear is running .470 in higher than it should be. In relationship to the cam gear. Not good. I need to put some bluing on the driven gear. Just to see how bad it is. (The gear pattern will be on the very end of that driven gear.)
As another note. When the engine is running. The distributor drive gears. Are pulling the distributor main shaft down. So, what stop/stops? Are keeping that main shaft. Down ward forces. From damaging the pick-up coil? I need to take a good distributor apart. I use to have some around. But Ken Saffer has destroyed ALL of them. GRIN. I've said for about a year now. That something is up with that new oil pump. That Ken S installed back then.
Engines, drivetrains, and suspensions are my thing. With all the engines that I've built over a lot of years. This is truly a new one.
Bob Dunahugh
78 Royale since 2003
4 real COPO Yenkos
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[GMCnet] Re: Distributor seized up, ( DATA ) [message #366705 is a reply to message #366701] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 12:46 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Problem is NOT in the distributor! It is the drive shaft, and the spring
clip that is supposed to be located in that free zone between the top of
the oil pump and the engine block. I suspect that you could just get hold
of the distributor drive shaft, and a slight pull could have it in your
hand. Which is NOT HOW it should be. It should remain in the engine when
you invert the engine like you do when torquing the crank bearings, etc. It
is usually the next to the last thing that I install when buttoning up the
lower end of an engine.
Been bitten by that gremlin once, a long time ago in a far away land
known as my foray into the automotive machine shop business with an
alcoholic partner. But, that is at least a two beer story!
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 8:43 AM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
> I told Ken Shaffer last night. To mark a stick. As to the distance from
> the top of the intermediate oil pump shaft. To the top of the engine block.
> At the distributor hole. He then came to my house this morning. So, we
> could compare the distance between his 455. And a rebuilt 455 that I have
> laying around here. On an engine stand. Ken's shaft is .470-inch higher in
> the block than mine. Ken S intermediate shaft is 8.062 in. Ken H has
> measured two shafts. At 8.125, and 8.187 in. So, Ken S saft is the shortest
> already. Then there's another issue. By shimming the distributor up. The
> distributor drive gear is running .470 in higher than it should be. In
> relationship to the cam gear. Not good. I need to put some bluing on the
> driven gear. Just to see how bad it is. (The gear pattern will be on the
> very end of that driven gear.)
> As another note. When the engine is running. The distributor drive
> gears. Are pulling the distributor main shaft down. So, what stop/stops?
> Are keeping that main shaft. Down ward forces. From damaging the pick-up
> coil? I need to take a good distributor apart. I use to have some around.
> But Ken Saffer has destroyed ALL of them. GRIN. I've said for about a year
> now. That something is up with that new oil pump. That Ken S installed
> back then.
> Engines, drivetrains, and suspensions are my thing. With all the
> engines that I've built over a lot of years. This is truly a new one.
> Bob Dunahugh
> 78 Royale since 2003
> 4 real COPO Yenkos
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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[GMCnet] Re: Distributor seized up, ( DATA ) [message #366706 is a reply to message #366701] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 12:46 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465 Registered: October 2010 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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Ken S had to go to a wedding today. When he gets free. I'm going to use my inspection camera. To get a closer look in there from the top. May need to look inside the oil pan.
Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 10:43 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: RE: Distributor seized up, ( DATA )
I told Ken Shaffer last night. To mark a stick. As to the distance from the top of the intermediate oil pump shaft. To the top of the engine block. At the distributor hole. He then came to my house this morning. So, we could compare the distance between his 455. And a rebuilt 455 that I have laying around here. On an engine stand. Ken's shaft is .470-inch higher in the block than mine. Ken S intermediate shaft is 8.062 in. Ken H has measured two shafts. At 8.125, and 8.187 in. So, Ken S saft is the shortest already. Then there's another issue. By shimming the distributor up. The distributor drive gear is running .470 in higher than it should be. In relationship to the cam gear. Not good. I need to put some bluing on the driven gear. Just to see how bad it is. (The gear pattern will be on the very end of that driven gear.)
As another note. When the engine is running. The distributor drive gears. Are pulling the distributor main shaft down. So, what stop/stops? Are keeping that main shaft. Down ward forces. From damaging the pick-up coil? I need to take a good distributor apart. I use to have some around. But Ken Saffer has destroyed ALL of them. GRIN. I've said for about a year now. That something is up with that new oil pump. That Ken S installed back then.
Engines, drivetrains, and suspensions are my thing. With all the engines that I've built over a lot of years. This is truly a new one.
Bob Dunahugh
78 Royale since 2003
4 real COPO Yenkos
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[GMCnet] Re: Distributor seized up, ( DATA ) [message #366707 is a reply to message #366705] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 13:05 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Jim,
You're correct: I examined a brand new shaft today, which had the stop in
place (actually 2 push-on spring washers back-to-back). Since Ken Shaffer
can pull his shaft out, those washers are no longer in place. Then I found
among my jump a used shaft with those washers also missing (including scars
where they'd been pulled off). That shaft shows, below the previous stop
washers' location, wear where it seated about 1/2" into the oil pump. At
the other end, there are scars from about 1" seated in the distributor
shaft.
My question now is, WHY is the stop necessary, other than for assembly, as
you described? With the oil pump limiting downward motion and the
distributor preventing upward travel, WHY are the washers essential?
Just curious, really,
Ken H.
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 1:46 PM James Hupy wrote:
> Problem is NOT in the distributor! It is the drive shaft, and the spring
> clip that is supposed to be located in that free zone between the top of
> the oil pump and the engine block. I suspect that you could just get hold
> of the distributor drive shaft, and a slight pull could have it in your
> hand. Which is NOT HOW it should be. It should remain in the engine when
> you invert the engine like you do when torquing the crank bearings, etc. It
> is usually the next to the last thing that I install when buttoning up the
> lower end of an engine.
> Been bitten by that gremlin once, a long time ago in a far away land
> known as my foray into the automotive machine shop business with an
> alcoholic partner. But, that is at least a two beer story!
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Oregon
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 8:43 AM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
>
>> I told Ken Shaffer last night. To mark a stick. As to the distance from
>> the top of the intermediate oil pump shaft. To the top of the engine
> block.
>> At the distributor hole. He then came to my house this morning. So, we
>> could compare the distance between his 455. And a rebuilt 455 that I have
>> laying around here. On an engine stand. Ken's shaft is .470-inch higher
> in
>> the block than mine. Ken S intermediate shaft is 8.062 in. Ken H has
>> measured two shafts. At 8.125, and 8.187 in. So, Ken S saft is the
> shortest
>> already. Then there's another issue. By shimming the distributor up. The
>> distributor drive gear is running .470 in higher than it should be. In
>> relationship to the cam gear. Not good. I need to put some bluing on the
>> driven gear. Just to see how bad it is. (The gear pattern will be on the
>> very end of that driven gear.)
>> As another note. When the engine is running. The distributor drive
>> gears. Are pulling the distributor main shaft down. So, what stop/stops?
>> Are keeping that main shaft. Down ward forces. From damaging the pick-up
>> coil? I need to take a good distributor apart. I use to have some around.
>> But Ken Saffer has destroyed ALL of them. GRIN. I've said for about a
> year
>> now. That something is up with that new oil pump. That Ken S installed
>> back then.
>> Engines, drivetrains, and suspensions are my thing. With all the
>> engines that I've built over a lot of years. This is truly a new one.
>> Bob Dunahugh
>> 78 Royale since 2003
>> 4 real COPO Yenkos
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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[GMCnet] Re: Distributor seized up, ( DATA ) [message #366710 is a reply to message #366707] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 14:18 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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They are only there to keep the shaft from falling out when the engine is
inverted, as I previously described.
Now the $64,000 dollar question is, Do we really need those washers?
Short answer is, no, if you are not inverting the engine. So, we
probably are good to install the shaft with NO WASHERS, drop in the
distributor and check for end play. If you have some, button it up and
fuggitabout it.
If you are anal like me, and strive for perfection in engine
building, you would pull the pan and oil pump, install the shaft with the
spring washers in the correct position, button it back up, and be not 1 bit
better off for the effort. But that is just me. Please use your best
judgment here.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 11:06 AM Ken Henderson wrote:
> Jim,
>
> You're correct: I examined a brand new shaft today, which had the stop in
> place (actually 2 push-on spring washers back-to-back). Since Ken Shaffer
> can pull his shaft out, those washers are no longer in place. Then I found
> among my jump a used shaft with those washers also missing (including scars
> where they'd been pulled off). That shaft shows, below the previous stop
> washers' location, wear where it seated about 1/2" into the oil pump. At
> the other end, there are scars from about 1" seated in the distributor
> shaft.
>
> My question now is, WHY is the stop necessary, other than for assembly, as
> you described? With the oil pump limiting downward motion and the
> distributor preventing upward travel, WHY are the washers essential?
>
> Just curious, really,
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 1:46 PM James Hupy wrote:
>
>> Problem is NOT in the distributor! It is the drive shaft, and the spring
>> clip that is supposed to be located in that free zone between the top of
>> the oil pump and the engine block. I suspect that you could just get hold
>> of the distributor drive shaft, and a slight pull could have it in your
>> hand. Which is NOT HOW it should be. It should remain in the engine when
>> you invert the engine like you do when torquing the crank bearings, etc.
> It
>> is usually the next to the last thing that I install when buttoning up
> the
>> lower end of an engine.
>> Been bitten by that gremlin once, a long time ago in a far away
> land
>> known as my foray into the automotive machine shop business with an
>> alcoholic partner. But, that is at least a two beer story!
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Oregon
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 8:43 AM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
>>
>>> I told Ken Shaffer last night. To mark a stick. As to the distance from
>>> the top of the intermediate oil pump shaft. To the top of the engine
>> block.
>>> At the distributor hole. He then came to my house this morning. So, we
>>> could compare the distance between his 455. And a rebuilt 455 that I
> have
>>> laying around here. On an engine stand. Ken's shaft is .470-inch higher
>> in
>>> the block than mine. Ken S intermediate shaft is 8.062 in. Ken H has
>>> measured two shafts. At 8.125, and 8.187 in. So, Ken S saft is the
>> shortest
>>> already. Then there's another issue. By shimming the distributor up.
> The
>>> distributor drive gear is running .470 in higher than it should be. In
>>> relationship to the cam gear. Not good. I need to put some bluing on
> the
>>> driven gear. Just to see how bad it is. (The gear pattern will be on
> the
>>> very end of that driven gear.)
>>> As another note. When the engine is running. The distributor
> drive
>>> gears. Are pulling the distributor main shaft down. So, what
> stop/stops?
>>> Are keeping that main shaft. Down ward forces. From damaging the
> pick-up
>>> coil? I need to take a good distributor apart. I use to have some
> around.
>>> But Ken Saffer has destroyed ALL of them. GRIN. I've said for about a
>> year
>>> now. That something is up with that new oil pump. That Ken S installed
>>> back then.
>>> Engines, drivetrains, and suspensions are my thing. With all the
>>> engines that I've built over a lot of years. This is truly a new one.
>>> Bob Dunahugh
>>> 78 Royale since 2003
>>> 4 real COPO Yenkos
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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[GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling ) [message #366716 is a reply to message #366713] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 16:44 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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To be sure I don't drop something, like a nut driver, into the engine, I've
got a piece of thin PVC pipe, 1-1/4" IIRC, with small notch in one side to
clear the cam gear. I put that down in the "distributor hole" to keep
anything dropped in there accessible for recovery.
JWID,
Ken H.
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 3:54 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
> Put a 5/16 nut driver in a drill. With distributors out. Drove the oil
> pumps in both engines. Good oil flow in each.
> Bob Dunahugh
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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[GMCnet] RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling ) [message #366718 is a reply to message #366716] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 19:20 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465 Registered: October 2010 Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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I agree with Ken H. 100%. DO NOT take chances. That nut driver was very well secured. Bob Dunahugh
________________________________
From: Ken Henderson
Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 4:44 PM
To: GMC Mail List
Subject: [GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling )
To be sure I don't drop something, like a nut driver, into the engine, I've
got a piece of thin PVC pipe, 1-1/4" IIRC, with small notch in one side to
clear the cam gear. I put that down in the "distributor hole" to keep
anything dropped in there accessible for recovery.
JWID,
Ken H.
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 3:54 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
> Put a 5/16 nut driver in a drill. With distributors out. Drove the oil
> pumps in both engines. Good oil flow in each.
> Bob Dunahugh
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
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[GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling ) [message #366721 is a reply to message #366718] |
Sat, 11 September 2021 20:16 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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I use a socket that fits the hex drive, 1/4" drive. I grind an old
distributor drive shaft square th fit the socket drive end, and weld the
socket onto the oil pump drive shaft. I Chuck the shaft into my 3/8"
cordless drill and turn it onto counterclockwise direction. Then, I engage
the shaft in the engine with the socket and drive the oil pump for a few
minutes until I see oil flowing everywhere including the distributor drive
area.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Sep 11, 2021, 5:21 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
> I agree with Ken H. 100%. DO NOT take chances. That nut driver was very
> well secured. Bob Dunahugh
>
> ________________________________
> From: Ken Henderson
> Sent: Saturday, September 11, 2021 4:44 PM
> To: GMC Mail List
> Subject: [GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling )
>
> To be sure I don't drop something, like a nut driver, into the engine, I've
> got a piece of thin PVC pipe, 1-1/4" IIRC, with small notch in one side to
> clear the cam gear. I put that down in the "distributor hole" to keep
> anything dropped in there accessible for recovery.
>
> JWID,
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Sat, Sep 11, 2021 at 3:54 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
>
>> Put a 5/16 nut driver in a drill. With distributors out. Drove the oil
>> pumps in both engines. Good oil flow in each.
>> Bob Dunahugh
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling ) [message #366724 is a reply to message #366721] |
Sun, 12 September 2021 04:05 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030 Registered: January 2004 Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Does the direction that the distributor turns have anything to do with the upwards or downwards pull on the shaft and slinging of oil slinging up along the shaft? Are the shafts different between clock clock wise and counter clockwise rotation distributors?
I am out of my league here but I believe Olds distributors turn counter clockwise while Chevy and Cadillac distributors turn clockwise. Would it be possible to install a Chevy / Cadillac distributor in an Olds?
I can not see how it would work with a vacuum advance / centrifugal advance distributor. They would have to pull the opposite direction. On one without vacuum advance (computer controlled advance) Maybe.
Feel free to tell me that I am all wrong.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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[GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling ) [message #366758 is a reply to message #366745] |
Mon, 13 September 2021 14:08 |
Ken Shaffer
Messages: 89 Registered: September 2017 Location: Marion Iowa
Karma: -1
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Member |
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What I finally discovered is that the intermediate shaft was not dropping
all the way down in the oil pump. The new oil pump must have tighter
tolerances or maybe just off a little on mine. The shaft would drop down
and sound solid like it should... but I discovered that it was actually
sticking up almost 1/2". Bob D had a spare rebuilt 455 that I could
compare the height of this shaft. After learning that it wasn't seated
down all the way, I got onto this shaft with a needle nose pliers and while
wiggling back and forth and putting downward pressure on it..... It went
down!!
I hope nobody else ever has to jump on the distributor roller coaster that
I have been on, but if you do.... and need that measurement on how far the
shaft should stick up, call me.
On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 7:57 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
> Problem resolved. All working well. Ken Shaffer will post the details.
> Bob Dunahugh
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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Ken Shaffer
Marion Iowa
73 Canyon Lands, 455, Micro-level, Alum radiator, Alcoa wheels, Lenzi hubs/bearings, Howell EFI/EBL, Rostra Cruise, Custom interior
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[GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling ) [message #366760 is a reply to message #366758] |
Mon, 13 September 2021 14:35 |
Len Novak
Messages: 676 Registered: February 2004 Location: Las Vegas, NV
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Think I’ll take a trip to the men’s mall and pull a distributor off an
Oldsmobile 403
On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:08 Ken Shaffer wrote:
> What I finally discovered is that the intermediate shaft was not dropping
> all the way down in the oil pump. The new oil pump must have tighter
> tolerances or maybe just off a little on mine. The shaft would drop down
> and sound solid like it should... but I discovered that it was actually
> sticking up almost 1/2". Bob D had a spare rebuilt 455 that I could
> compare the height of this shaft. After learning that it wasn't seated
> down all the way, I got onto this shaft with a needle nose pliers and while
> wiggling back and forth and putting downward pressure on it..... It went
> down!!
> I hope nobody else ever has to jump on the distributor roller coaster that
> I have been on, but if you do.... and need that measurement on how far the
> shaft should stick up, call me.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 7:57 PM Bob Dunahugh wrote:
>
>> Problem resolved. All working well. Ken Shaffer will post the details.
>> Bob Dunahugh
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
--
*Len and Pat Novak*
*1978 GMC Kingsley*
*The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!*
*Las Vegas, NV* new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
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Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
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[GMCnet] Re: RE" Distributor seized up, ( Oiling ) [message #366761 is a reply to message #366760] |
Mon, 13 September 2021 15:49 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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The only significant spare in "Tweety Bird" is a full-up distributor.
FWIW,
Ken H.
On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 3:35 PM Len Len wrote:
> Think I’ll take a trip to the men’s mall and pull a distributor off an
> Oldsmobile 403
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:08 Ken Shaffer wrote:
>
>> What I finally discovered is that the intermediate shaft was not dropping
>> all the way down in the oil pump. The new oil pump must have tighter
>> tolerances or maybe just off a little on mine. The shaft would drop down
>> and sound solid like it should... but I discovered that it was actually
>> sticking up almost 1/2". Bob D had a spare rebuilt 455 that I could
>> compare the height of this shaft. After learning that it wasn't seated
>> down all the way, I got onto this shaft with a needle nose pliers and
> while
>> wiggling back and forth and putting downward pressure on it..... It went
>> down!!
>> I hope nobody else ever has to jump on the distributor roller coaster
> that
>> I have been on, but if you do.... and need that measurement on how far
> the
>> shaft should stick up, call me.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 7:57 PM Bob Dunahugh
> wrote:
>>
>>> Problem resolved. All working well. Ken Shaffer will post the details.
>>> Bob Dunahugh
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>
> --
>
> *Len and Pat Novak*
>
> *1978 GMC Kingsley*
>
> *The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!*
>
> *Las Vegas, NV* new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
>
>
>
> www.bdub.net/novak/
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>
_______________________________________________
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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