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LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365310] Fri, 09 July 2021 18:37 Go to next message
Tom Katzenberger is currently offline  Tom Katzenberger   United States
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Guys,

I was all in on LiFePo4 Batteries until I discovered they can not be charged below 32F. Those who have time with the Lithium batteries please let me know your thought? Thanks.

Tom K.


Tom & Oki Katzenberger, Kingsville, Maryland, 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D., Micro Level, Howell EBL-EFI Spark Control, Macerator, York Air Compressor, 6 Wheel Disc, Quadra Bag, Onan W/Bovee Ignition
[GMCnet] Re: LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365312 is a reply to message #365310] Fri, 09 July 2021 19:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stu@97381.com, Emery  is currently offline  stu@97381.com, Emery   United States
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I believe they can still be charged if you reduce the charging rate. How do they charge electric autos at low temps?
There are also new lithium batteries that automatically heat the batteries at low ambient temps.

Emery Stora

> On Jul 9, 2021, at 5:37 PM, tomkatz3@comcast.net wrote:
>
> Guys,
>
> I was all in on LiFePo4 Batteries until I discovered they can not be charged below 32F. Those who have time with the Lithium batteries please let me
> know your thought? Thanks.
>
> Tom K.
> --
> Tom & Oki Katzenberger,
> Kingsville, Maryland,
> 1977 23' Birchaven, 455 C.I.D.
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> GMCnet mailing list
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Re: [GMCnet] Re: LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365313 is a reply to message #365312] Fri, 09 July 2021 19:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carl S. is currently offline  Carl S.   United States
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Yes, there are LiFePo4 batteries with heaters.

I have been looking at them as well and I'm wondering why there are batteries with the same basic specs all over E-bay and Amazon that are half the price of the brand name ones (Battle Born, Briter, etc.)?


Carl Stouffer '75 ex Palm Beach Tucson, AZ. Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
Re: LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365316 is a reply to message #365310] Fri, 09 July 2021 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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I’d be more worried about charging during the hot weather we experience more often than cold. Remember all the 787 Dreamliner fires? That’s bad.
Cooling them would be harder than simply adding resistance heat in cold weather. No expert here, just looking at raising the obvious questions.


John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
[GMCnet] Re: LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365322 is a reply to message #365316] Sat, 10 July 2021 00:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ljdavick is currently offline  ljdavick   United States
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One of the beauties of lithium is that they can be housed inside no off-gassing. Heated lithium batteries can also help maintain charge ability, but if you are living at 32 degrees then you might want to start the coach and run the heater for a bit!

Larry Davick
Who lives near San Francisco where 32 degrees is reserved for margarita machines.
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
Re: LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365326 is a reply to message #365310] Sat, 10 July 2021 08:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
RF_Burns is currently offline  RF_Burns   Canada
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The Battery Management System (BMS) within the LiFePO4 (LFP) battery should be designed to prevent charging below freezing. Some batteries have a built-in heater that uses the available charging current to warm the battery before switching that current to charge the battery. LPF batteries don't off-gas so you can install them inside. One 100Ahr LPF battery (smaller than a group 27 and weighing less than 30lbs) is roughly equivalent to two golf-cart LA batteries and will outlast them by many years.

You can discharge the battery down to -20C. Some say they operate up to +60C, but most say avoid operation above +40C

There are a number of Lithium battery chemistries. The higher charge concentration chemistries as used in Tesla's are much more unstable and susceptible to catching than LPF. LPF is a very stable battery chemistry. You can find videos on YouTube where they are dropped, shorted, over-charged etc and not much happens compared to Lead-Acid (LA) and other lithium chemistries.

There seems to be a handful of companies in China that make virtually all of the LPF cells. There are a number of companies that assemble these cells into batteries. They will custom build and private label the batteries for you. If you look at the various US lithium battery companies, they say "designed in USA" or "Designed and assembled" not "Made in USA".

You can also buy the cells and the BMS and assemble your own battery to your own specs. There is lots of info on-line about how to do this and the pit-falls. Google Will Prowse for some good info.

I just installed two 100Ahr batteries in my coach and so far I really like them. They charge much faster than LA batteries and have a very flat voltage discharge curve. The Murray sleeps in a heated shop all winter so I'm not much worried about freezing temps.



Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
Re: LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365331 is a reply to message #365326] Sat, 10 July 2021 10:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rjw   United States
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RF_Burns wrote on Sat, 10 July 2021 09:12
The Battery Management System (BMS) within the LiFePO4 (LFP) battery should be designed to prevent charging below freezing. Some batteries have a built-in heater that uses the available charging current to warm the battery before switching that current to charge the battery. LPF batteries don't off-gas so you can install them inside. One 100Ahr LPF battery (smaller than a group 27 and weighing less than 30lbs) is roughly equivalent to two golf-cart LA batteries and will outlast them by many years.

You can discharge the battery down to -20C. Some say they operate up to +60C, but most say avoid operation above +40C

There are a number of Lithium battery chemistries. The higher charge concentration chemistries as used in Tesla's are much more unstable and susceptible to catching than LPF. LPF is a very stable battery chemistry. You can find videos on YouTube where they are dropped, shorted, over-charged etc and not much happens compared to Lead-Acid (LA) and other lithium chemistries.

There seems to be a handful of companies in China that make virtually all of the LPF cells. There are a number of companies that assemble these cells into batteries. They will custom build and private label the batteries for you. If you look at the various US lithium battery companies, they say "designed in USA" or "Designed and assembled" not "Made in USA".

You can also buy the cells and the BMS and assemble your own battery to your own specs. There is lots of info on-line about how to do this and the pit-falls. Google Will Prowse for some good info.

I just installed two 100Ahr batteries in my coach and so far I really like them. They charge much faster than LA batteries and have a very flat voltage discharge curve. The Murray sleeps in a heated shop all winter so I'm not much worried about freezing temps.

I am intrigued by the concept of getting rid of LA house batteries. My GMC also spends the winter in its own heated/air conditioned garage. Can you share with us approximate cost of your battery upgrade? I know my "new" converter/charger etc. would need to be replaced.


Richard
76 Palm Beach
SE Michigan
www.PalmBeachGMC.com

Roller Cam 455, TBI+EBL, 3.42 FD, 4 Bag, Macerator, Lenzi (brakes, vacuum system, front end stuff), Manny Tranny, vacuum step, Tankless + OEM water heaters.
Re: LiFePo4 Below Freezing Temps [message #365335 is a reply to message #365331] Sat, 10 July 2021 11:30 Go to previous message
Carl S. is currently offline  Carl S.   United States
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Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
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Check out Jerry Work's presentation on the subject. It is very good:

http://gmcws.org/blog/lithium-battery-presentation-gmcws-2019-fall-rally/


Carl Stouffer '75 ex Palm Beach Tucson, AZ. Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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