Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » No Go (Silence after a big click)
| No Go [message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 15:25  |
dsmithy
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
Karma: 0
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Hey Gang,
After a winter of fixing and upgrades, tires/wheels/bogie greasers/new fuel&vent lines/mech fuel pump & electric boost fuel pump/oil/filter change/(((much more)).
I hooked up the batteries and went to spin the motor without setting the choke to get oil pressure on the guage.
What I got was a nice clunk as the bendix engaged and then nothing, everything was silent.
The radio has power still.
Turning the key does nothing, even kills the radio until I release the key.
Nothing to the starter, nothing to the air pump.
No change when I go to boost position (although I can hear the solenoid click)
No history of problems with the starter, though it was replaced by me in 1996.
I have plugged it in to charge the batteries (with a Yandina Combiner) until tomorrow.
But I got nothing, not even a chatter indicating a low battery.
It anyone has a suggested diagnostic path for tomorrow morning, I'd love to hear it.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Doug
Douglas & Virginia Smith,
dsmithy18 at gmail,
Lincoln Nebraska,
’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo";
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
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| Re: No Go [message #362728 is a reply to message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 15:35  |
blur911
Messages: 166
Registered: December 2020
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Karma: 4
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Check the big cable going to the starter, is there 12v and a good connection at each end?
The Bendix is like the coil to a relay, it just pulls in and makes the bigger contacts connect which go to the starter motor. Those contacts can get corroded or worn as well and are internal to the Bendix (solenoid), which could also be the problem.
BTW, I'm speaking of starters in general, I'm assuming the Olds starter is similar.
Who here has had to whap a starter with a soft faced hammer to make it work? 
Burl Vibert
Kingston, Ontario
1976 GMC 26 foot, Sheridan reno, don't know original model but we call her Roxie
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| Re: No Go [message #362729 is a reply to message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 15:52 |
blur911
Messages: 166
Registered: December 2020
Location: Kingston, Ontario
Karma: 4
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I just re-read your post. By "Bendix", do you mean a Bendix drive on the starter?
There's neutral/park safety switch between the ignition switch and the starter. Might be that if your starter isn't pulling in.
I also might not know what I'm talking about as I'm looking at my electrical prints in the manual (that I can barely see, where's my glasses?) and at my actual wiring and realizing things are not the same. Soooo, YMMV.
Burl Vibert
Kingston, Ontario
1976 GMC 26 foot, Sheridan reno, don't know original model but we call her Roxie
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| Re: No Go [message #362731 is a reply to message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 16:45 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Do you have a meter? You should have a meter before you buy a GMC. If not, turn on your headlights. If they go out when you turn to Crank it’s not your starter. You have a bad/ discharged battery or a dirty connection between battery and starter or battery and ground. Repair accordingly.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: No Go [message #362732 is a reply to message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 17:19 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Douglas,
Even if you don't have a meter and do not know the condition of the main engine start battery, if you are on shore power (I am guessing you are from what I have read) put a jumper (any piece of wire - clips or no) between the upper and lower terminals of the isolator. Wait until tomorrow to try again. What you are describing is a lot like either a battery that is way down on charge (but might recover given a chance) and a bad connection before the starter cable.
You will have to do a little bit more diagnosis before we can be sure.
If you try again tomorrow and get the same result, after a couple of tries, run around to the front hatch and put a finger tip (one at a time)on both battery terminals and every place else that is a power junction that you can reach. If one is warm, disassemble and clean that one first.
There is an unfortunate thing about the 10MT starters we have. In engineering terms, it is too robust. In common parlance, it waits too long to quit. Most other starters give you more warning that they are about to give up. The 10MT, not so. It will keep working until there is just NO HOPE.
Fortunately, the parts are inexpensive and they are not difficult to rebuild without special tooling.
Matt
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: No Go [message #362735 is a reply to message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 18:09 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I believe the radio doesn't work in start position, only in run and acc. (Don't have the schematics in front of me). Someone please look and report back. The reason for not powering the radio is to keep it from seeing the solenoid kickback, which can spike and break things in the radio.
Meantime, you're describing a poor connection as someone noted.
==johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] No Go [message #362738 is a reply to message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 19:39 |
Nelson
Messages: 120
Registered: August 2014
Karma: 0
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Have someone hold the key in the start position while you go out and give the starter a hard hit with a hammer or a tire iron. This has got me going on more than one occasion.
HTH
Nelson
78 Royal Rear Bath
Belle Isle Fl.
Sent from my iPad
> On Mar 8, 2021, at 4:26 PM, Douglas Smith via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Hey Gang,
> After a winter of fixing and upgrades, tires/wheels/bogie greasers/new fuel&vent lines/mech fuel pump & electric boost fuel pump/oil/filter
> change/(((much more)).
> I hooked up the batteries and went to spin the motor without setting the choke to get oil pressure on the guage.
> What I got was a nice clunk as the bendix engaged and then nothing, everything was silent.
> The radio has power still.
> Turning the key does nothing, even kills the radio until I release the key.
> Nothing to the starter, nothing to the air pump.
> No change when I go to boost position (although I can hear the solenoid click)
> No history of problems with the starter, though it was replaced by me in 1996.
> I have plugged it in to charge the batteries (with a Yandina Combiner) until tomorrow.
> But I got nothing, not even a chatter indicating a low battery.
>
> It anyone has a suggested diagnostic path for tomorrow morning, I'd love to hear it.
> Thanks in advance for your help.
> Doug
> --
> Douglas & Virginia Smith
> dsmithy18 at gmail
> Lincoln Nebraska
> ’73 “Canyonlands” since ‘95: "Wanabizo";
> Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels(finally!)/Sundry other
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: No Go [message #362739 is a reply to message #362727] |
Mon, 08 March 2021 20:28 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Senior Member |
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Yes the radio on most GM shuts off during crank. It also does not play with no keys like it does in the MH! Probably so guests could have entertainment and yet the driver retain the keys. If radio goes away with crank attempt it ain’t the starter. Same as headlamp test mentioned earlier. .
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: No Go [message #362741 is a reply to message #362727] |
Tue, 09 March 2021 07:13 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I missed the headlight test, it's more definitive anyway. If they go out, poor connection somewhere. I have about fifty bucks worth of battery cables to install in my coach. I'll run battery direct to the starter, then back to the boost solenoid and feeds.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: No Go [message #362746 is a reply to message #362731] |
Tue, 09 March 2021 16:11 |
dsmithy
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Cheeze John, I have several good meters and a brain, I just don't have a lot of experience with automotive diagnostics. As it turns out, you were right about a loose connection. It was at the starter and tightened right up. That did not solve the problem however. I checked all the positive and ground connections and metered those I could isolate for high resistance but found good connections. The coach had been plugged in overnight and I had 13.5 volts at the batteries, isolator and boost solenoid. Still no headlights.
While excercising the ignition switch and listening I heard a "solenoid" or something engage when the switch was in the "run" position and I went to off and back to run several times, hearing the "whatever" also click on in the run position. When I advanced the key to the start position the engine started right up, even without setting the choke. The coach has started and run normally several times since.
So, thank you all for your suggestions, several of them proved true and fixable. But I'm left with a problem solved yet unsolved. I mean, sometimes I have trouble waking up in the morning as well so I have sympathy for the coach, but this seems electrical. I don't recall anyone saying that a relay engages when the ignition switch hits run, just before starting, yet that's what I "think" I heard. I have had the occasional starting problem like this before, both hot and cold, where I would get nothing from a key turn, or multiple key turns. I'd just open up the passenger engine door, poke around for hot connections or something not normal, maybe rap on something with my knuckle, and the coach would start and run normally. I might expect some weird PO stuff on a coach built 10/5/73, but everything looks stock and undisturbed. So the search continues.
Douglas & Virginia Smith,
dsmithy18 at gmail,
Lincoln Nebraska,
’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo";
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
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| Re: [GMCnet] No Go [message #362747 is a reply to message #362746] |
Tue, 09 March 2021 16:37 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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You have overlooked the fact that you have a "boost" switch on the dash. On
later coaches, that boost switch is just an A - B switch and is NOT spring
loaded to the "run" position. It can easily be left in "boost". Earlier
coaches, are equipped with a spring loaded boost switch. It defaults to the
"run" position when released.
Anyway, when you activate that switch, it closes a relay that looks
very much like a starter relay on early Fords and other makes as well. When
that relay fails, you still hear the click you describe, but the internal
high amperage contacts do not "make" and you have a no start if your engine
battery is bad, because your house batteries do not connect properly.
So, I still vote for a bad connection or that solenoid relay as your
culprit. It is where I would look first.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Tue, Mar 9, 2021, 2:12 PM Douglas Smith via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Cheeze John, I have several good meters and a brain, I just don't have a
> lot of experience with automotive diagnostics. As it turns out, you were
> right about a loose connection. It was at the starter and tightened right
> up. That did not solve the problem however. I checked all the positive and
> ground connections and metered those I could isolate for high resistance
> but found good connections. The coach had been plugged in overnight and I
> had
> 13.5 volts at the batteries, isolator and boost solenoid. Still no
> headlights.
>
> While excercising the ignition switch and listening I heard a "solenoid"
> or something engage when the switch was in the "run" position and I went to
> off and back to run several times, hearing the "whatever" also click on in
> the run position. When I advanced the key to the start position the engine
> started right up, even without setting the choke. The coach has started
> and run normally several times since.
>
> So, thank you all for your suggestions, several of them proved true and
> fixable. But I'm left with a problem solved yet unsolved. I mean, sometimes
> I
> have trouble waking up in the morning as well so I have sympathy for the
> coach, but this seems electrical. I don't recall anyone saying that a relay
> engages when the ignition switch hits run, just before starting, yet
> that's what I "think" I heard. I have had the occasional starting problem
> like
> this before, both hot and cold, where I would get nothing from a key turn,
> or multiple key turns. I'd just open up the passenger engine door, poke
> around for hot connections or something not normal, maybe rap on something
> with my knuckle, and the coach would start and run normally. I might expect
> some weird PO stuff on a coach built 10/5/73, but everything looks stock
> and undisturbed. So the search continues.
> --
> Douglas & Virginia Smith
> dsmithy18 at gmail
> Lincoln Nebraska
> ’73 “Canyonlands” since ‘95: "Wanabizo";
> Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy
> wheels(finally!)/Sundry other
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: No Go [message #362749 is a reply to message #362727] |
Tue, 09 March 2021 18:51 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Doug, I've been following this thread and just thinking about it. It took a while for my pea brain to call this up. This same thing happened to me back in the early 70's on and old Oldsmobile that I had. Did many of the things noted by others to no avail. Then after spending a good bit of time on it, for no apparent reason after several turning of the key, it just started. I then got to looking at the solenoid. Just replaced it and it never did a no start again. I took that solenoid apart and the large contact washer in there was badly corroded from repeated contacts over the years. So I theorized that the corrosion was so bad that the corrosion was not allowing electrical contact. Then with repeated turning of the key, it eventually broke through the corrosion and made enough contact to start the engine. I suppose I could have just flipped that washer over or 180* and use the clean part of that contact washer, but the solenoid was already replaced. If you haven't already, try pulling that solenoid apart, or just change it out.
Just my relatively informed, off the cuff, back yard mechanic, gut level, eyeball it up and guestimate, opinion....that's all...
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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| Re: No Go [message #362753 is a reply to message #362749] |
Tue, 09 March 2021 23:50 |
dsmithy
Messages: 210
Registered: July 2012
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
Thanks for your suggestions, but I am acutely aware of the boost switch and its function. As I have never perceived a benefit from it, other than excercise it now and then I leave it alone. At the start of this mini-saga i exercised it, heard the click in both directions and left it on normal. So I don't think it's a part of the problem, but I'm certainly willing to be corrected.
Larry,
Thanks again for your help. I presume you are referring to the starter solenoid attached to the starter itself. I would be inclined to pull the starter and rebuild it and replace the solenoid but it seems the problem is upstream of the starter. When the problem happens, there is no action whatsoever even before the ignition switch gets to the start position, none. And when the problem isn't there, there's the obvious noise of the air pump, etc. in the run position before it gets to the start position
A few years ago, the key cylinder gave up and I ordered a new one from JimK. Everything works normally, but I lost the ACC position because the cylinder would not turn in reverse to the ACC position. It's on my list to replace the key cylinder but I've not had a problem using the "run" position to run the air pump till I can drive away. I would sooner suspect that my problem is with the slider switch on the steering column than elseware. But I am too ignorant of what happens downstream of that switch to know. If you suggest that nothing happens downstream of the ignition switch on the steering column except the starter solenoid and ignition circuitry then I'll go find the correct key cylinder, adjust (or replace) that switch and move on.
I really am grateful for your help on this.
Douglas & Virginia Smith,
dsmithy18 at gmail,
Lincoln Nebraska,
’73 “Sequoia” since ‘95: "Wanabizo";
Quadrabag/6 wheel disks/3:70 final/Paterson QuadraJet/Thorley’s/Alloy wheels/Sundry other
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| Re: No Go [message #362757 is a reply to message #362727] |
Wed, 10 March 2021 05:58 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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You need to go do some diagnosing BEFORE you start trying some of the fixes posted here. Prove what is wrong FIRST. I can give you three of four more ideas but without diagnosing the problem first, they are just wild guesses. Start with the headlight test and listen for the starter solenoid to click.
I do not like running a new cable between the battery to the starter because that terminal on the starter is soft brass or copper. Putting two cables on it is an invitation for it to break off from vibration of the battery cable in the future. Thousands of GMCs out there run just fine without this unnecessary modification. Fix the real problem rather than mask it with a modification.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: No Go [message #362774 is a reply to message #362753] |
Thu, 11 March 2021 19:31 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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dsmithy wrote on Wed, 10 March 2021 00:50<SNIP>
A few years ago, the key cylinder gave up and I ordered a new one from JimK. Everything works normally, but I lost the ACC position because the cylinder would not turn in reverse to the ACC position. It's on my list to replace the key cylinder but I've not had a problem using the "run" position to run the air pump till I can drive away. I would sooner suspect that my problem is with the slider switch on the steering column than elseware. But I am too ignorant of what happens downstream of that switch to know. If you suggest that nothing happens downstream of the ignition switch on the steering column except the starter solenoid and ignition circuitry then I'll go find the correct key cylinder, adjust (or replace) that switch and move on.
I really am grateful for your help on this.
Doug (aka Dsmithy)
With the help of friends, I found my way back to you......
I had the same problem with no ACC position available. I changed all kinds of parts in my well worn '73. When I pull the steering wheel and signal switch out again (please remember that this is also the guy that had his fuel tanks down 5 times all for different reasons). I started really looking at all the parts.
The problem was nothing that I had or could easily have replaced.
When you remove and install a lock cylinder there is a slot that a blade from the cylinder goes into to retain the cylinder. The inner end of mine had cracked and so the outer shell of the cylinder set could side in too far for the lock to clear to the accessory position. Fortunately, the bored hole that the cylinder resides in was not too much deeper and I was able to make a spacer with the OD of the outer cylinder, the ID a little large than the inner cylinder and a length to make that tab just clear the outer edge of the slot.
I may have written this up as a short subject and if I did and if I can find it (three HDD crashes ago), I will send it to you.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: No Go [message #362776 is a reply to message #362753] |
Thu, 11 March 2021 20:00 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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dsmithy wrote on Tue, 09 March 2021 23:50
Larry,
Thanks again for your help. I presume you are referring to the starter solenoid attached to the starter itself. I would be inclined to pull the starter and rebuild it and replace the solenoid but it seems the problem is upstream of the starter. When the problem happens, there is no action whatsoever even before the ignition switch gets to the start position, none. And when the problem isn't there, there's the obvious noise of the air pump, etc. in the run position before it gets to the start position
A few years ago, the key cylinder gave up and I ordered a new one from JimK. Everything works normally, but I lost the ACC position because the cylinder would not turn in reverse to the ACC position. It's on my list to replace the key cylinder but I've not had a problem using the "run" position to run the air pump till I can drive away. I would sooner suspect that my problem is with the slider switch on the steering column than elseware. But I am too ignorant of what happens downstream of that switch to know. If you suggest that nothing happens downstream of the ignition switch on the steering column except the starter solenoid and ignition circuitry then I'll go find the correct key cylinder, adjust (or replace) that switch and move on.
I really am grateful for your help on this.
Ahhh...I am completely ignorant of what happens in that steering column...accept maybe something happens in there when I turn the steering wheel and the coach changes direction.  So, glad to see Matt could help. Hope you can work it out.
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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