| No start - Corrected to No Crank - update [message #355916] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 18:27  |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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Ok, this is a bit weird. Got in to start the GMC and ust got a click so I pulled the battery and put it on the charger and the charger showed within a hour it was fully charged. Put it back in snd same click. Pulled the battery and took it up to walmart, they checked it and said it was good. Replaced and cleaned cables and made sure they were clamped down tight. All good there. So I do hear a click on the starter but it won’t turn the motor. Is it time for a new starter?
TG
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
[Updated on: Tue, 23 June 2020 15:35] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: No start [message #355919 is a reply to message #355916] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 18:35  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Does it click the second, third, and 4th time you turn the key to start?
Turn on the headlights, then turn the key to start. Do the headlights dim or go off?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: No start [message #355920 is a reply to message #355916] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 18:36 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Sir, if you smack the starter a couple times on its side kinda solid with a hammer and it works, yes it’s time to at least get it cleaned and checked by a competent rebuilder. OEM starter is a little longer and more stronger than car starter so try to keep it if you still got it.
tgeiger wrote on Sat, 20 June 2020 19:27Ok, this is a bit weird. Got in to start the GMC and ust got a click so I pulled the battery and put it on the charger and the charger showed within a hour it was fully charged. Put it back in snd same click. Pulled the battery and took it up to walmart, they checked it and said it was good. Replaced and cleaned cables and made sure they were clamped down tight. All good there. So I do hear a click on the starter but it won’t turn the motor. Is it time for a new starter?
TG
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: No start [message #355924 is a reply to message #355916] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 20:00 |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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Guys, just went out and checked. Headlights remain strong and the starter did make a clunk sound each time I turned the ignition in multiple times in succession.
TG
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
[Updated on: Sat, 20 June 2020 20:01] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] No start [message #355926 is a reply to message #355925] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 20:56 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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There is a third possibility. Your engine is locked up solid, and the
starter cannot spin it. Bad, bad, ju-ju. I hope this is not the problem. It
is hyper expensive to fix.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 6:24 PM D C _Mac_ Macdonald via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> The starter solenoid simply may not be applying battery
> voltage to the starter motor. Check for continuity between
> battery and the starter (big heavy wires) and starter wire
> to the actual starter. It's probably a two person job.
>
> If voltage does not show up at the solenoid output terminal,
> replace the starter solenoid. If battery voltage then shows
> up at the starter, replace the starter.
>
> Don't forget to also check all the negative/ground wires!
>
> D C "Mac" Macdonald
> Amateur Radio K2GKK
> Since 30 November '53
> USAF and FAA, Retired
> Member GMCMI & Classics
> Oklahoma City, OK
> "The Money Pit"
> TZE166V101966
> '76 ex-Palm Beach
> k2gkk + hotmail dot com
>
> ________________________________
> From: Gmclist on behalf of tom geiger
> via Gmclist
> Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2020 20:00
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Cc: tom geiger
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] No start
>
> Guys, just went out and checked. Headlights remain strong and the started
> did make a clunk sound each time I turned the ignition in multiple times in
> succession.
>
> TG
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] No start [message #355927 is a reply to message #355926] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 21:07 |
Melbo
Messages: 144
Registered: August 2018
Location: Albuquerque NM
Karma: 0
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James H
You are typically right on topic and I read ANYTHING you post BUT wouldn't the headlights dim if the engine was locked?
Just asking and trying to be helpful. I had a similar experience and took my starter out and to the local rebuilder and now all is well.
HTH
Melbo
Albuquerque NM Bus Conversion 1978 MCI 1973 GMC
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| Re: [GMCnet] No start [message #355928 is a reply to message #355927] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 21:26 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Tom,
Remove the starter. Remove the solenoid from it. Disassemble the switch
end of the solenoid. You'll probably find that the two large copper studs
have badly eroded "heads" inside the housing, where the disc attached to
the solenoid's plunger contacts those two heads. You should be able to
turn the disc over and rotate the studs so that new contact surfaces can
engage. Reassembled, the solenoid and starter should work normally. If
new surfaces can't be used, clean up those that are necessary -- or go
spend $15 or so for a new solenoid.
JWID,
Ken H.
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020 at 10:08 PM melmull--- via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> James H
>
> You are typically right on topic and I read ANYTHING you post BUT wouldn't
> the headlights dim if the engine was locked?
>
> Just asking and trying to be helpful. I had a similar experience and took
> my starter out and to the local rebuilder and now all is well.
>
> HTH
>
> Melbo
> --
> Albuquerque NM Bus Conversion 1978 MCI 1973 GMC
>
> _______________________________________________
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: No start [message #355930 is a reply to message #355916] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 21:49 |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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Guess I could drop off ghe starter and check if it works. Or can I take a break over bar on the crank to see if the engine turns? Can’t see how the engine would suddenly sieze? How’s that happen without any warning?
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
[Updated on: Sat, 20 June 2020 22:12] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: No start [message #355932 is a reply to message #355924] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 22:42 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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OK you have:
1. a bad starter solenoid. There is a big copper ring inside that touches two copper studs. Odds are the studs are worn down. the solenoid can easily be taken apart, and the studs reversed 180 degrees. I just replaced one of these The solenoid was $21.00 at the local starter rebuild shop. Unfortunately is was not as good as an original one because some of the contacts were plated steel not solid copper or bass.
2. There is a possibility that the bendix gear is not engaging the gear on the flywheel. You can turn the engine slightly to move the flywheel (Flex Plate) slightly by putting a socket on the big bolt in front of the crank shaft. Then try again.
3. The third possibility is the starter itself. Usually this is just a worn down brush. If you do not feel comfortable talking it apart, then take it to a local starter repair place. They can can quickly diagnose, repair, and lube only the specific things that are wrong with it.
That usually costs me $25 to $35 depending on what parts they replace.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: No start [message #355933 is a reply to message #355930] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 22:51 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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The engine is NOT locked or the lights would have dimmed. Thaat is oneof the reasons I ask you to turnon the lights. The click with out dimming the lights tells us that probably the solenoid contacts are worn and Colonel Ken's previous description on how to fix it without any new parts is right on.
Ken B.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] No start [message #355935 is a reply to message #355933] |
Sat, 20 June 2020 23:58 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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The solenoid contactor, as it is known, used to be reversible and made of
solid copper. Alas, it is not made out of copper any more. Some kind of
"mystery metal" that is copper covered with a foil like material, and is no
longer either replaceable or reversible. With today's labor rates, quicker
and easier to merely replace the solenoid. I guess it makes some cockeyed
sense to someone.
All that I am saying here is, Either good or bad, replacement is your only
option. Sucks, for sure. Kinda makes some of us long for the "good 'ol
days".
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Jun 20, 2020, 8:52 PM Ken Burton via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> The engine is NOT locked or the lights would have dimmed. Thaat is oneof
> the reasons I ask you to turnon the lights. The click with out dimming the
> lights tells us that probably the solenoid contacts are worn and Colonel
> Ken's previous description on how to fix it without any new parts is right
> on.
> Ken B.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: No start [message #355939 is a reply to message #355916] |
Sun, 21 June 2020 07:22 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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You can short across the solenoid to determine whether it or the starter itself has a problem, but either way you have to unship it to fix it. If it is the original and you have a trusted shop, have it rebuilt. Otherwise build it yourself - new solenoid, new brushes, new front bushing and rear bearing, new bendix if needed, clean the armature contact ring with crocus cloth, and undercut the spaces between the segments slightly with a thin hacksaw blade. Put it back and go another 40 years.
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: No start [message #355941 is a reply to message #355916] |
Sun, 21 June 2020 08:20 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Tom,
First Things First:
What you have is not a no-start.
What you have is a No Crank. Big difference.
Now, before you do anything rash (like spend money), take apart each and every cable connection between the engine battery and the starter and back again. There are two sides to this and they both have to be good. So, if you have not broken and cleaned every connection between the positive post and the solenoid, (that is only half) and then from the engine block back to the negative post, you still do not know what you have.
That 10MY starter was used on all GM products from the end of the pony express until about last week. It has a know issue in that in engineering terms, it is too robust. In short, when it actually finally quits working, there is no minor issue. Several times now, I have opened one of these up (hoping I could just pop in new brushes) and the next thing I wanted to do is put a rag over it and go get a drink. They have to be really shot up to not draw enough current to dim the headlights.
There is another small inconvenience. The nose on our starter is unique to the 425 transmission that has now been out of production for a little less than 40 years. So, picking up a fast rebuild can sometimes be another problem.
If you don't have a local automotive electrical shop that is inhabited by a old guy that has been at this a while, you can actually do about an 90% rebuild without anything you don't have in you toolbox. The kit is available for less than 20$us from Ebay if it does not need a new bendix.
So, guarantee that the power to it is good first.
Be sure to come back and tell us what you found.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: No start [message #355944 is a reply to message #355916] |
Sun, 21 June 2020 11:09 |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Will do Matt. I’ve checked the cables from the battery but will check all cabling and clean their connections. I have already order the same starter I had on there. I don’t believe it was the original starter. It was 70$ and the O’Reilly counter guy said if the solenoid went bad the rest may be close behind. So it made enough sense to me for 70$ to just replace the whole thing. It’s coming up from Springfield Mo on Tuesday. So I’ll clean all the rest of the connections and make sure they are good and tight.
Thanks guy, I’ll keep you posted on the results.
TG
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
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| Re: No start [message #355971 is a reply to message #355939] |
Sun, 21 June 2020 23:41 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Odds are it is not the starter but the solenoid mounted on the starter. Save the removed one and look at it. You might be able to have a good spare for $20 by replacing the solenoid.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: No start [message #356016 is a reply to message #355916] |
Tue, 23 June 2020 11:01 |
tgeiger
Messages: 518
Registered: February 2006
Location: kansas city
Karma: -1
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Senior Member |
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Just checking, got the new starter and seem to remember my ignition wire is suppose to go to the S terminal and not the R, correct?
TG
Tom Geiger
76 Eleganza II
KCMO
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| Re: No start [message #356027 is a reply to message #356016] |
Tue, 23 June 2020 12:51 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I do not know S or R but, the wire to the ignition key goes on the terminal closest to the engine (I think). The other terminal goes to the + side of the Ignition coil on points ignition systems only.
Easy way to check prior to install is to ground a 12 volt battery to the starter case and apply +12 to the terminal. The correct one will energize the solenoid and it will move. The incorrect one will do nothing. You could also check it with an ohm meter.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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