Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help
| [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #354977] |
Thu, 21 May 2020 18:32  |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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It's been a while since I was an active participant, but I've kept up
with the list for the whole time. Just haven't been goofing around with
the GMC except to run it once a month or so, and put a few inches on the
new tires moving it around the driveway. Too busy bulking up the
retirement investments. Now that I have crossed the threshold of my
Biblical allotment of time, I figure it's worth getting back to the GMC
projects.
I have an urgent problem for which I can't remember the solution. And
combing through the hundreds of thousands of archived words from the
list and other sources just doesn't seem like fun. So here goes -- I'll
try to keep the syllable count as low as possible (I won't go into the
detail with each item).
-- I have both electric (EP) and mechanical (MP) fuel pumps (plumbed in
the "classic" way, electric pushing through the mechanical). I use EP to
prime carburetor (that's another project).
-- Last time I ran the GMC, engine missed and sputtered and puked out
horrendous smoke. Turned off (but probably not quickly enough) - hasn't
been run since.
-- Thinking EP punched a hole or tear in MP diaphragm, I drained oil.
Yielded about 2-1/2 gallons of lovely gasoline-scented oil (or was it
oil-tinted gasoline?)
OK, GMC veterans know the story. I'm replacing the MP this weekend.
That's not the problem. What I need is a plumbing arrangement to bypass
the output of the EP around the MP. I seem to recall some years ago
someone had come up with a solution. I've sketched something out using
tees and a couple of check valves, but the routing would do Rube
Goldberg proud.
I'm open to suggestions. I would love to have a dual electric setup, but
that is not in the cards right now. I need to get this engine running at
least as well as it did before (which was actually quite good). With
115,000+ miles, I may be looking at some other major fixes, so the fuel
pump luxury will have to wait. How I miss the music only an Olds 455 can
make.
So, there you go. I'll take whatever medicine is prescribed, although a
Ron White quote might be appropriate.
Sidebar note: I occasionally get requests for the Onan maintenance video
with Duane Simmons. It is still available, and will be as long as I have
the digital master.
Thanks for any help. I'm glad to be able to participate again with the
GMC family.
Toby "sure hope my engine isn't hosed" Maki
73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #354978 is a reply to message #354977] |
Thu, 21 May 2020 20:19  |
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Hi Toby
Wow, so glad to see ya posting again. Been way too long.
I went totally submerged electric so don't have anything to offer ya. Just
so glad to see ya back!
bdub
On Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:27 PM TMaki via Gmclist
wrote:
> It's been a while since I was an active participant, but I've kept up
> with the list for the whole time. Just haven't been goofing around with
> the GMC except to run it once a month or so, and put a few inches on the
> new tires moving it around the driveway. Too busy bulking up the
> retirement investments. Now that I have crossed the threshold of my
> Biblical allotment of time, I figure it's worth getting back to the GMC
> projects.
>
> I have an urgent problem for which I can't remember the solution. And
> combing through the hundreds of thousands of archived words from the
> list and other sources just doesn't seem like fun. So here goes -- I'll
> try to keep the syllable count as low as possible (I won't go into the
> detail with each item).
>
> -- I have both electric (EP) and mechanical (MP) fuel pumps (plumbed in
> the "classic" way, electric pushing through the mechanical). I use EP to
> prime carburetor (that's another project).
>
> -- Last time I ran the GMC, engine missed and sputtered and puked out
> horrendous smoke. Turned off (but probably not quickly enough) - hasn't
> been run since.
>
> -- Thinking EP punched a hole or tear in MP diaphragm, I drained oil.
> Yielded about 2-1/2 gallons of lovely gasoline-scented oil (or was it
> oil-tinted gasoline?)
>
> OK, GMC veterans know the story. I'm replacing the MP this weekend.
> That's not the problem. What I need is a plumbing arrangement to bypass
> the output of the EP around the MP. I seem to recall some years ago
> someone had come up with a solution. I've sketched something out using
> tees and a couple of check valves, but the routing would do Rube
> Goldberg proud.
>
> I'm open to suggestions. I would love to have a dual electric setup, but
> that is not in the cards right now. I need to get this engine running at
> least as well as it did before (which was actually quite good). With
> 115,000+ miles, I may be looking at some other major fixes, so the fuel
> pump luxury will have to wait. How I miss the music only an Olds 455 can
> make.
>
> So, there you go. I'll take whatever medicine is prescribed, although a
> Ron White quote might be appropriate.
>
> Sidebar note: I occasionally get requests for the Onan maintenance video
> with Duane Simmons. It is still available, and will be as long as I have
> the digital master.
>
> Thanks for any help. I'm glad to be able to participate again with the
> GMC family.
>
>
> Toby "sure hope my engine isn't hosed" Maki
>
> 73 Glacier 230
> Riverside, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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bdub
bdub.net
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #354980 is a reply to message #354977] |
Thu, 21 May 2020 20:59 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Toby,
Mine is set up like yours. I know it's not ideal, but I'm hoping that with a fresh mechanical pump on the engine, with hopefully ethanol resistant diaphragms, I will be safe. I have heard of this happening but have never experienced it in any vehicle I have had with a pusher electric pump on it (several). I think a ruptured pump diaphragm is really rare.
I haven't had time to think about it, but I can't think of a way to do it with check valves while still maintaining the function of the mechanical pump.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #354983 is a reply to message #354977] |
Thu, 21 May 2020 21:00 |
Len Novak
Messages: 676
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I can tell you what I did.
Elect pump with a cockpit switch for starting only. Once she fires I turn
off the elect pump. The mechanical pump takes over. If there is a burp
while under way I click on the elect pump. This way the elect pump is only
used for starting or in an emergency (vapor lock). I have two rollover
switches installed in series with the elect pump. If we are ever in an
accident and the elect pump is on the rollover switched should cut the fuel
supply to the engine.
Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of TMaki
via Gmclist
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2020 4:32 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: TMaki
Subject: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help
It's been a while since I was an active participant, but I've kept up
with the list for the whole time. Just haven't been goofing around with
the GMC except to run it once a month or so, and put a few inches on the
new tires moving it around the driveway. Too busy bulking up the
retirement investments. Now that I have crossed the threshold of my
Biblical allotment of time, I figure it's worth getting back to the GMC
projects.
I have an urgent problem for which I can't remember the solution. And
combing through the hundreds of thousands of archived words from the
list and other sources just doesn't seem like fun. So here goes -- I'll
try to keep the syllable count as low as possible (I won't go into the
detail with each item).
-- I have both electric (EP) and mechanical (MP) fuel pumps (plumbed in
the "classic" way, electric pushing through the mechanical). I use EP to
prime carburetor (that's another project).
-- Last time I ran the GMC, engine missed and sputtered and puked out
horrendous smoke. Turned off (but probably not quickly enough) - hasn't
been run since.
-- Thinking EP punched a hole or tear in MP diaphragm, I drained oil.
Yielded about 2-1/2 gallons of lovely gasoline-scented oil (or was it
oil-tinted gasoline?)
OK, GMC veterans know the story. I'm replacing the MP this weekend.
That's not the problem. What I need is a plumbing arrangement to bypass
the output of the EP around the MP. I seem to recall some years ago
someone had come up with a solution. I've sketched something out using
tees and a couple of check valves, but the routing would do Rube
Goldberg proud.
I'm open to suggestions. I would love to have a dual electric setup, but
that is not in the cards right now. I need to get this engine running at
least as well as it did before (which was actually quite good). With
115,000+ miles, I may be looking at some other major fixes, so the fuel
pump luxury will have to wait. How I miss the music only an Olds 455 can
make.
So, there you go. I'll take whatever medicine is prescribed, although a
Ron White quote might be appropriate.
Sidebar note: I occasionally get requests for the Onan maintenance video
with Duane Simmons. It is still available, and will be as long as I have
the digital master.
Thanks for any help. I'm glad to be able to participate again with the
GMC family.
Toby "sure hope my engine isn't hosed" Maki
73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #354992 is a reply to message #354977] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 06:50 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I have exactly the same set up as you do. Yours is only the second person I have ever heard of that had a verified diaphragm failure. Every low wing gasoline airplane that I have ever seen uses the same arrangement.
In the GMC I use the electric pump prior to start up primarily to hear it run while the coach is quiet, and then next to never for running down the road. In the airplane we turn on the electric fuel pump prior to starting and read the fuel pressure. Then we shut it off and start the engine. With it still off we let the engine warm up and taxi out to the runway. On take off we run the electric pump until reaching a few thousand feet and shut it off for the remainder of the flight.
So in both cases we only use the electric as a back up emergency device. Doing it this way pretty much eliminates your chances of putting much fuel in the crankcase.
We could design something with a few check valves and reworked gas lines, but by the time we got done you could have spent the money on a second pump, an oil pressure switch, and a block off plate to cover the hole where the mechanical pump was. So if that is what you want, just go to a two electric pump system. There are many different ways to plumb and wire it.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
[Updated on: Sat, 23 May 2020 12:57] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #354999 is a reply to message #354980] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 11:06 |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Carl for sharing that. I remember you mentioning in the recent
fuel pump thread that you have this setup. Over the years I've read a
number of cautions re: the possibility of MP failures resulting from the
EP pushing through. The pump failure itself isn't that big a deal. It's
the flooding of the oil pan with gas that ruins your day.
Your experience with never having had this happen gives me confidence
that perhaps it's a statistically far outlier.
I've seen your beautiful GMC at a couple of rallies and, I think, out at
Quartzsite some time back. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't jeopardize it
with a compromising setup.
Thanks again.
Toby Maki
73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
On 5/21/2020 6:59 PM, Carl Stouffer via Gmclist wrote:
> Mine is set up like yours. I know it's not ideal, but I'm hoping that with a fresh mechanical pump on the engine, with hopefully ethanol resistant
> diaphragms, I will be safe. I have heard of this happening but have never experienced it in any vehicle I have had with a pusher electric pump on it
> (several). I think a ruptured pump diaphragm is really rare.
>
> I haven't had time to think about it, but I can't think of a way to do it with check valves while still maintaining the function of the mechanical
> pump.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #355003 is a reply to message #355000] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 11:43 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Thank you for the compliment Toby.
I actually do not use the electric pump very much. Usually I switch to the aux tank, activating the pump before starting, to prime the carb, then switch back to Main. I generally only use it to help with vapor lock type symptoms while driving up a long grade in the Summer time or when I let my main tank get too low.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #355004 is a reply to message #354992] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 11:47 |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks, Ken, for your thoughts.
I run my EP just like you do. Sitting quiet, I can hear the pump and its
changing sound when the carb is full. And, like you, I don't run it
while driving.
Your comments re: airplane use is encouraging. I don't remember the fuel
plumbing details of the Piper Cherokees I flew 35 years ago, but what
you describe sounds familiar.
And you're right -- cobbling up a piping system would not be time or
money well spent at this time.
I'm feeling a lot better about this. I have to consider that I bought
this GMC from the original owner 21 years ago. He had put on the EP and
run it for years before he sold the coach to me. So, although not
perfectly fail safe, it is generally reliable.
I'm going to carry on with it this weekend. After I clean up the spark
plugs and do the filter/oil drain and refresh, I'll give it a try.
Hopefully, all will be well.
Next, I've got to replace the dipstick tube. Got a new one from Jim K.,
but have to get the old one out first. (I feel a Roseann Roseannadana
moment coming on . . . )
Thanks again.
Toby Maki
73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
On 5/22/2020 4:50 AM, Ken Burton via Gmclist wrote:
> I have exactly the same set up as you do. Yours is only the second person I have ever heard of that had a verified diaphragm failure. Every low wing
> gasoline airplane that I have ever seen uses the same arrangement.
>
> In the GMC I use the electric pump prior to start up primarily to hear it run while the coach is quiet, and then next to never for running down the
> road. In the airplane we turn on the electric fuel pump prior to starting and read the fuel pressure.
>
> We could design something with a few check valves and reworked gas lines, but by the time we got done you could have spent the money on a second pump,
> an oil pressure switch, and a block off plate
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #355007 is a reply to message #355000] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 12:15 |
Len Novak
Messages: 676
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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Going to the Pacific Cruisers rally next month?
Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of TMaki
via Gmclist
Sent: Friday, May 22, 2020 9:21 AM
To: Len Novak via Gmclist
Cc: TMaki
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help
Thanks Len.
That's what I do, although I've never had a vapor lock problem. I use
the EP only to get gas to the carburetor (separate switch). I turn it
off even before cranking the engine. It usually only takes a few seconds
to fill the carb bowl. When the sound of the pump changes, I turn it
off. I guess my first clue to something being wrong was a much longer
prime time -- actually, the sound really never changed like it always
had. Hmmm . . .
Well, at least I've found another use for two of my best diagnostic
tools -- my ears. (Memo to self: "Listen to that pump.")
Thanks again, Len. I appreciate your thoughts.
Toby Maki
73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
On 5/21/2020 7:00 PM, Len Novak via Gmclist wrote:
> Elect pump with a cockpit switch for starting only. Once she fires I turn
> off the elect pump. The mechanical pump takes over. If there is a burp
> while under way I click on the elect pump. This way the elect pump is
only
> used for starting or in an emergency (vapor lock).
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Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #355010 is a reply to message #354977] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 12:54 |
 |
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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tmaki wrote on Thu, 21 May 2020 19:32It's been a while since I was an active participant, but I've kept up with the list for the whole time. Just haven't been goofing around with the GMC except to run it once a month or so, and put a few inches on the new tires moving it around the driveway. Too busy bulking up the retirement investments. Now that I have crossed the threshold of my Biblical allotment of time, I figure it's worth getting back to the GMC projects. (See Response #1 below)
I have an urgent problem for which I can't remember the solution. And combing through the hundreds of thousands of archived words from the list and other sources just doesn't seem like fun. So here goes -- I'll try to keep the syllable count as low as possible (I won't go into the detail with each item).
-- I have both electric (EP) and mechanical (MP) fuel pumps (plumbed in the "classic" way, electric pushing through the mechanical). I use EP to prime carburetor (that's another project).
-- Last time I ran the GMC, engine missed and sputtered and puked out horrendous smoke. Turned off (but probably not quickly enough) - hasn't been run since.
-- Thinking EP punched a hole or tear in MP diaphragm, I drained oil. Yielded about 2-1/2 gallons of lovely gasoline-scented oil (or was it oil-tinted gasoline?) <See Response #2 below)
OK, GMC veterans know the story. I'm replacing the MP this weekend. That's not the problem. What I need is a plumbing arrangement to bypass the output of the EP around the MP. I seem to recall some years ago someone had come up with a solution. I've sketched something out using tees and a couple of check valves, but the routing would do Rube Goldberg proud.
I'm open to suggestions. I would love to have a dual electric setup, but that is not in the cards right now. I need to get this engine running at least as well as it did before (which was actually quite good). With 115,000+ miles, I may be looking at some other major fixes, so the fuel pump luxury will have to wait. How I miss the music only an Olds 455 can make.
So, there you go. I'll take whatever medicine is prescribed, although a Ron White quote might be appropriate.
Sidebar note: I occasionally get requests for the Onan maintenance video with Duane Simmons. It is still available, and will be as long as I have the digital master. <see Response #3 below)
Thanks for any help. I'm glad to be able to participate again with the GMC family.
Toby "sure hope my engine isn't hosed" Maki
73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
Toby,
#1 - You should at least stop and say hello once in a while.
#2 - Your engine is most likely unharmed. But, you will want to change the oil twice after you replace the engine's pump. The first is just to put good oil in it and the second is to get any remaining alcohol from the fuel out of the engine.
#3 - As long as it is a digital master, you should pick someone to pass a copy to so it is not lost in the case of some disaster.
Not an actual question, but a response to what you may be doing.
If you are starting any engine on an irregular basis and not running it loaded to get to full operating temperatures, you are much better off leaving it alone. This is particularly true of little engines. They are much better off if the gas is run out of or drained from the carburetor. If you don't know how long you might be leaving it, learn how to "fog" the engine.
And one silly question... Is your Glacier a White Glacier or a Blue Glacier. Something I read said that the blue did not sell well in either 23 or 26 and there may have been fewer than a dozen 23s in blue.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #355013 is a reply to message #355010] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 13:26 |
tmaki
Messages: 200
Registered: September 2005
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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On 5/22/2020 10:54 AM, Matt Colie via Gmclist wrote:
> #1 - You should at least stop and say hello once in a while.
Yeah, that's probably true. Just haven't had anything to contribute.
Besides, I can't compete with the width, breadth, scope and fascination
factor of many of the topics posted :-)
> #2 - Your engine is most likely unharmed. But, you will want to change the oil twice after you replace the engine's pump. The first is just to put
> good oil in it and the second is to get any remaining alcohol from the fuel out of the engine.
That's the plan. Just going out today to get 12 qts of new oil and two
more filters. Glad to hear that my engine is probably OK.
> If you are starting any engine on an irregular basis and not running it loaded to get to full operating temperatures, you are much better off leaving
> it alone.
Mea culpa, mea culpa. But it's a little like me and my cello. I can't
play it in any way describable as music, but not getting it out once in
a while to at least tune it and play a scale is better than looking at
it in the corner. On the other hand, the last time I got it out, I broke
a string, split the bridge, and lost all the hair in the bow. Hmm . . .
gotta be a lesson in there somewhere.
> And one silly question... Is your Glacier a White Glacier or a Blue Glacier?
Blue. S/N 837. Ooh, ooh maybe it's got rarity value (?) . A little like
a YouTube I saw this morning about the Chevy HHR SS. Only 216 or so
built -- folks asking $15,000 for a $3000 car. Naaahh!
Toby Maki
73 Glacier 230
Riverside, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Hi again, but need some help [message #355017 is a reply to message #355013] |
Fri, 22 May 2020 14:26 |
|
Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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tmaki wrote on Fri, 22 May 2020 14:26<snip>
> #2 - Your engine is most likely unharmed. But, you will want to change the oil twice after you replace the engine's pump. The first is just to put
> good oil in it and the second is to get any remaining alcohol from the fuel out of the engine.
That's the plan. Just going out today to get 12 qts of new oil and two more filters. Glad to hear that my engine is probably OK.
<snip>
Toby Maki
Toby,
Don't bother with the filters. Just dump them between changes. If you are still concerned, find a local speed shop that has a filter cutter (they are a bear to open with normal tools) and take the last filter to them. If it is full of silver flakes, I was wrong. (Hint, it won't be.)
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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