Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » General wiring question
| General wiring question [message #353146] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 08:43  |
uprooted
Messages: 72
Registered: December 2019
Location: Hilliard, OH
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What gauges do you all keep on hand and what type of wire is best? As I go through and replace sketchy-looking wiring as needed, I'm wondering if anyone has any suggestions on what gauges I will come across the most, and what type of wire is best to use in our applications (heat resistant? Silicone? Copper clad aluminum?)
Thanks
Corey P /
Hilliard, OH /
1974 Glacier 26' /
3.70 FD /
ION Wheels
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353147 is a reply to message #353146] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 11:08  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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The gauges vary for 10 to 18 depending on the circuit. The wiring diagram show the gauges for each circuit. I do not like copper clad aluminum. I am talking about the 12VDC stuff. The 120 volt stuff I believe is all 14 gauge. except the main feeds from the generator and shore power.
Everything should be stranded copper. No Aluminum.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353148 is a reply to message #353146] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 11:14 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Stranded copper rather then solid the more strands the better. Tachometer , voltmeter, temperature gages oil and water , vacuum is where I would start any others if you feel a need. If you are a flat lander maybe less.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
[Updated on: Thu, 26 March 2020 11:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353152 is a reply to message #353148] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 12:16 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
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For most applications GPT is probably fine. That being said, TXL,GXL,and SXL are better wire choices for under hood areas where you have more heat and contaminates like gas and oil. I use the better/more expensive stuff in applications such as wiring harnesses. Gauges 10 through 18 are typical although I seldom use 18.
Be careful buying from EB or the like stores. Del City or Waytek do carry the good stuff (as well as others).
Have fun, Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353159 is a reply to message #353146] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 14:08 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
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And just remember you can double up or triple up smaller gauge wires if you need to but it's pretty hard to go the other way.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353161 is a reply to message #353146] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 16:52 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Corey,
Where the harness usually is, on top of and in front of the engine, the only place that is too hot for normal wire grades is the exhaust cross over in the intake manifold. So, if you go over or around that, no problems. You can copy the wire gauges from the diagrams and not go wrong. This is particularly true because the wire sizes call out are SAE and not AWG. SAE is 85~90% of AWG. If you buy marine grade wire, that is find stranded for vibration and tinned for corrosion protection.
One last thing that I have learned. There are crimping tools that save the insulation, avoid them. There are some that mostly work, but those are expensive and have to be used with specific lugs and wire sizes. Get a tool that has a distinct tooth. Put that tooth away from where the ferrule is joined. That join can split open and release the conductors. Insulated terminals are OK, but if it is something that really matters, slide a piece of heat shrink on before the lug gets staked then slide it up and shrink it.
Best of luck guy
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353162 is a reply to message #353146] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 18:50 |
uprooted
Messages: 72
Registered: December 2019
Location: Hilliard, OH
Karma: 0
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Thanks for all of the replies. I GPT, TXL, GXL are all new terms to me. Any automotive electrical I've done in the past has been radios and easy stuff, and I typically buy whatever wore they're selling at autozone. This is insightful. Additionally, i do know how to solder (worked in electronics for a short time) and try to solder and heat shrink all of my joints.
Corey P /
Hilliard, OH /
1974 Glacier 26' /
3.70 FD /
ION Wheels
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353163 is a reply to message #353162] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 20:02 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Actually, and I'm sure this will start quite a 'conversation' but solder is not always the best approach. Metal to metal in a good crimp will have lower resistance than a soldered connection. The solder will tend to crack in vibration prone areas especially when not properly supported. This condition is only exasperated when the solder wicks up under the insulation. Of course you need to use quality seamless connectors and the right crimping tool and use the correct methods when crimping. I'm not saying there are't lots of soldered connections out there that have worked but...
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] General wiring question [message #353164 is a reply to message #353163] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 20:59 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 1
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Like Hal said. I cannot remember the last soldered OE wire end I saw was.
It’s all crimped.
Sully
Bellevue wa.
On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 6:03 PM Hal StClair via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Actually, and I'm sure this will start quite a 'conversation' but solder
> is not always the best approach. Metal to metal in a good crimp will have
> lower resistance than a soldered connection. The solder will tend to crack
> in vibration prone areas especially when not properly supported. This
> condition is only exasperated when the solder wicks up under the
> insulation. Of course you need to use quality seamless connectors and the
> right
> crimping tool and use the correct methods when crimping. I'm not saying
> there are't lots of soldered connections out there that have worked but...
> Hal
> --
> 1977 Royale 101348,
>
> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>
> 1975 Eleganza II, 101230,
>
> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
>
> Rio Rancho, NM
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] General wiring question [message #353165 is a reply to message #353164] |
Thu, 26 March 2020 22:08 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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I think it comes back to time spent per connection. Crimping is fast, less
expensive and most of the time effective enough to outlive the warranty. Is
it electrically superior to a properly soldered, heat shrunk connector? In
all my years of experience, I have had many, many crimped connections get
full of corrosion and develop high resistance in automotive service. Worse
in marine service, particularly salt water.
Soldered connections? Can't remember very many that were well soldered.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Thu, Mar 26, 2020, 7:00 PM Todd Sullivan via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Like Hal said. I cannot remember the last soldered OE wire end I saw was.
> It’s all crimped.
>
> Sully
> Bellevue wa.
>
> On Thu, Mar 26, 2020 at 6:03 PM Hal StClair via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>
>> Actually, and I'm sure this will start quite a 'conversation' but solder
>> is not always the best approach. Metal to metal in a good crimp will have
>> lower resistance than a soldered connection. The solder will tend to
> crack
>> in vibration prone areas especially when not properly supported. This
>> condition is only exasperated when the solder wicks up under the
>> insulation. Of course you need to use quality seamless connectors and the
>> right
>> crimping tool and use the correct methods when crimping. I'm not saying
>> there are't lots of soldered connections out there that have worked
> but...
>> Hal
>> --
>> 1977 Royale 101348,
>>
>> 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
>>
>> 1975 Eleganza II, 101230,
>>
>> 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
>>
>> Rio Rancho, NM
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353167 is a reply to message #353146] |
Fri, 27 March 2020 07:44 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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In my experience, slight though it may be, the problem with solder occurs when the wire is simply floated in the conncector and thenthe void filled with solder. As Hal says, this will crystallize and give problems under vibration. Use the new solder which is about half crystallized anyway, and it gets worse. A proper crimp with the correct tool and wire size and connector then soldered will last and the solder will forestall corrosion. On big connections I use split bolts, and neither twist nor solder the conductors, just place them through the bolt and then tighten it down with two long wrenches, cover in rubber and tape. This for battery cables and the like.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353170 is a reply to message #353146] |
Fri, 27 March 2020 10:29 |
Greg C.
Messages: 224
Registered: October 2019
Location: Knoxville, TN
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I agree with Ken. Having restored a few boats, I always use tinned copper wire suitable for marine use even on vehicles.
I have a good Ancor crimping tool, and I crimp, then solder, then apply adhesive filled shrink tubing. This makes a very sturdy, waterproof connection.
This connection will outlast the wire. You will pay a little more up front, but you will never have a problem with those connections and wire if it is properly sized for the amp load.
Don't buy the wire at West Marine, it will cost you double. There are several vendors on ebay that provide good wire for a good price.
I used tinned marine wire on the battery cables as well. If you peel back the insulation on an old battery cable, you will see black corrosion for several inches beyond where the insulation was. This corrosion
wicks in under the jacket. Since electricity travels on the outside of the strands of wire, this really increases the resistance of the wire, causing voltage drop and heat. An adhesive filled heat shrink over a
crimped and soldered connection will prevent this.
Greg Crawford
KM4ZCR
Knoxville, TN
"Ruby Sue"
1977 Royale
Rear Bath
403 Engine
American Eagle Wheels
Early Version Alex Sirum Quad bags
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| Re: [GMCnet] General wiring question [message #353171 is a reply to message #353170] |
Fri, 27 March 2020 11:34 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Don't get me wrong. Crimped connections are universally accepted across
many industries as the cat's meow. But companies like Tektronics still
absolutely use soldered connections.
My first wife Mary had a friend who managed a company who hired
mentally challenged people, and trained them for self supporting jobs
within their capabilities. Some of the tasks involved simple sorting and
packaging hardware and printed instruction manuals to include in packaging
of products for sale.
One of their products involved some precision soldering of wire harnesses,
which proved too difficult for the skill sets of his employees. So, her
friend sub contracted the harness soldering to folks like Mary and I who
did have the skills to perform those tasks. I had a heated shop in the back
yard with great lighting and work stations that we worked in. We soldered
components to circuit boards under 10 power magnification lenses. Touchy
stuff that had to pass vigorous inspection and testing. Tek was a stickler
for quality control. That is where I refined my soldering skills.
So, yes, I have some experience with soldering. Cleanliness is next to
Godliness in this. Any corrosion or dirt will lead to a cold soldered
joint. Also, proper cleanup and insulating is a must. And it takes time
from skilled workers. That equals $$$$ every time.
So, crimping has it's place, as does soldering. Which method is
better? Heck, I don't know with certainly.
I guess it is a quest for another day.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 8:30 AM Greg Crawford via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> I agree with Ken. Having restored a few boats, I always use tinned copper
> wire suitable for marine use even on vehicles.
>
> I have a good Ancor crimping tool, and I crimp, then solder, then apply
> adhesive filled shrink tubing. This makes a very sturdy, waterproof
> connection.
>
> This connection will outlast the wire. You will pay a little more up
> front, but you will never have a problem with those connections and wire if
> it is
> properly sized for the amp load.
>
> Don't buy the wire at West Marine, it will cost you double. There are
> several vendors on ebay that provide good wire for a good price.
>
> I used tinned marine wire on the battery cables as well. If you peel back
> the insulation on an old battery cable, you will see black corrosion for
> several inches beyond where the insulation was. This corrosion
>
> wicks in under the jacket. Since electricity travels on the outside of the
> strands of wire, this really increases the resistance of the wire, causing
> voltage drop and heat. An adhesive filled heat shrink over a
>
> crimped and soldered connection will prevent this.
> --
> Greg Crawford
> Knoxville, TN
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353175 is a reply to message #353146] |
Fri, 27 March 2020 15:16 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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As a graduate (!) of the NASA Standards High Reliability Soldering and Connection classes, I shall speak. Either methodology works correctly when properly applied. Either can be screwed up by poor understanding and workmanship. Both methods were tested in the same manner in the class - the wire was pulled off the connection or connector. The wire must break rather than leave the connector. Properly done either way, it will. Vibration resistance was proofed on a shake table. Flexion will cause the wire to break eventually, stranded stuff takes much much longer to succumb to vibration. It will pretty much always break at the connector, unless it was stripped using an illegal stripper in which case it will break where the stripper nicked the conductor EVERY time.
One of several classes God's Great Air Farce fronted me to, and probably the most useful one in civilian life.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] General wiring question [message #353176 is a reply to message #353161] |
Fri, 27 March 2020 16:27 |
richshoop
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2017
Karma: 0
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Wiring has to be understood as a system. It was designed as a system. Wiring in my coach is 45 years old with the crimps still intact.
Quality parts, that are from Molex or AMP are what is in the coach now. Crimped with tooling that also says Molex or AMP. Are there cheaper tools/supplies? yes, but will they provide you with 45 years of service?
As to the suggestion to use heat shrink over uninsulated terminals. Make SURE to use the adhesive lined type shrink, as it is the ONLY shrink tube that is waterproof. Get clear so that you can inspect the crimp connection.
Solder? not a good choice in the auto world, never has been.
> On March 26, 2020 at 2:52 PM Matt Colie via Gmclist wrote>
>
> Corey,
>
> Where the harness usually is, on top of and in front of the engine, the only place that is too hot for normal wire grades is the exhaust cross over in
> the intake manifold. So, if you go over or around that, no problems. You can copy the wire gauges from the diagrams and not go wrong. This is
> particularly true because the wire sizes call out are SAE and not AWG. SAE is 85~90% of AWG. If you buy marine grade wire, that is find stranded for
> vibration and tinned for corrosion protection.
>
> One last thing that I have learned. There are crimping tools that save the insulation, avoid them. There are some that mostly work, but those are
> expensive and have to be used with specific lugs and wire sizes. Get a tool that has a distinct tooth. Put that tooth away from where the ferrule is
> joined. That join can split open and release the conductors. Insulated terminals are OK, but if it is something that really matters, slide a piece
> of heat shrink on before the lug gets staked then slide it up and shrink it.
>
> Best of luck guy
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353205 is a reply to message #353146] |
Sat, 28 March 2020 12:03 |
uprooted
Messages: 72
Registered: December 2019
Location: Hilliard, OH
Karma: 0
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A lot of great info here. So no solder! As I dig in, the first egregious thing I see is that the black "RESISTANCE DO NOT CUT" wire that runs from the engine front wire harness to the ignition coil has clearly been cut in the past and spliced back together using larger gauge wire. Also there is a melted spot where it appear some one has tried to make another splice repair and it has gotten hot. What's the most logical way to replace this wire?
Corey P /
Hilliard, OH /
1974 Glacier 26' /
3.70 FD /
ION Wheels
[Updated on: Sat, 28 March 2020 12:05] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353206 is a reply to message #353146] |
Sat, 28 March 2020 12:21 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Since lead free ROHS solder is now the norm, I am more likely to just crimp and shrink. But I use a Kline crimper with the pointed tang designed for non insulated terminals. Much more aggressive than the flat squeeze type. They won't pull off.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353210 is a reply to message #353205] |
Sat, 28 March 2020 16:29 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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uprooted wrote on Sat, 28 March 2020 12:03A lot of great info here. So no solder! As I dig in, the first egregious thing I see is that the black "RESISTANCE DO NOT CUT" wire that runs from the engine front wire harness to the ignition coil has clearly been cut in the past and spliced back together using larger gauge wire. Also there is a melted spot where it appear some one has tried to make another splice repair and it has gotten hot. What's the most logical way to replace this wire?
The resistance wire was used with points ignition only. Do you have HEI or points distributor? If someone changed from points to HEI in the past they would have eliminated that resistance wire.
If you still need the resistance wire because you have points ignition, I would clean up those connections by installing butt style crimp connectors and covering them with shrink tubing. Nichrome resistance wire does no like solder very well.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: General wiring question [message #353213 is a reply to message #353146] |
Sat, 28 March 2020 18:40 |
uprooted
Messages: 72
Registered: December 2019
Location: Hilliard, OH
Karma: 0
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It is the points distributor and coil but with pertronix upgrade to eliminate the points.
Corey P /
Hilliard, OH /
1974 Glacier 26' /
3.70 FD /
ION Wheels
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