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| [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345768] |
Fri, 26 July 2019 18:04  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
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As part of the research I have been doing for a presentation I am giving at GMCWS in October on whether or not to upgrade a GMC to Lithium based batteries and if so, how to do it properly, I have been examining alternatives for our stock alternators. Anything larger than a 100ah LiFePO4 house battery bank could really tax our stock alternators. There are electronic devices that can resolve the issues surrounding the two different voltage regimes in which lead/acid and LiFePO4 batteries function, and even a few designed to lighten the load on the sub 100 amp alternators like those in most of our coaches. Those generally operate by limiting the alternator duty cycle by allowing the alternator to send charge current to the house battery bank for something like 10 to 15 minutes out of every 30 or so minutes the engine is running. The reasoning is that will allow the alternator to cool down sufficiently to prevent over heating the alternator during the relatively short time it takes to recharge lithium house batteries which accept way higher charge current than their lead/acid counterparts - basically everything the alternator can put out. These have no effect on recharging of the starting battery. They also serve as a battery isolator when the engine is turned off.
Given the recent dialog about serial alternator failures I am wondering whether these $200 smart duty cycle control isolators might not also be a good idea for all our GMCs, even the ones with lead/acid house battery banks. Yes, it might lengthen the time required to fully recharge the house batteries if you kept your lead/acid battery bank, but it wouldn’t matter if you were charging lithium batteries which charge in a fraction of the time it takes lead/acid batteries to recharge anyway. Would they cool off the alternators enough to keep even the cheap rebuilt units alive a lot longer?
One question for the whole group. Have any of you found a higher output alternator that will fit the stock mounting supports that can be successfully driven off of our stock one or two pulley V belt drive? Or, have you found a way to add a second alternator without too much fabrication or having to spin the water pump the wrong direction?
Within the last couple of years appropriate lithium battery technology has changed a lot with the addition of sophisticated, on-board battery management at the cell level and automatic cell balancing that makes these a safe and reliable choice for our application. And, prices have come down to the point that it will be hard for many of our GMC owners to resist the many, many benefits of lithium over lead/acid house batteries, but I am still concerned about how to solve the issues surrounding keeping our 40 year old, sub 100 amp first generation alternators alive. So, I am all ears on your suggestions.
PS - I really don’t want to debate lithium vs lead/acid batteries in this thread, so wait until after the presentation to do that. I would like to keep this thread focused just on the alternator question. Thanks.
Jerry
Jerry Work
The Dovetail Joint
Fine furniture designed and hand crafted in the 1907 former Masonic Temple building in historic Kerby, OR
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345769 is a reply to message #345768] |
Fri, 26 July 2019 21:43  |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
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Jerry,
Supposedly a company in Cleveland, called Tuff Stuff performance, has our style GM single wire alternator that will put out 200 amps.
Other than that, I don't know the specifics....
Scott.
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345771 is a reply to message #345769] |
Fri, 26 July 2019 22:10 |
richshoop
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2017
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If you do such an upgrade, be sure to upgrade, as in size, the power wiring from alternator, all the way back to the engine battery! Triple check all of the crimp connections. Anything that is loose will fail.
> On July 26, 2019 at 7:43 PM Scott Nutter via Gmclist wrote:
>
>
> Jerry,
> Supposedly a company in Cleveland, called Tuff Stuff performance, has our style GM single wire alternator that will put out 200 amps.
> Other than that, I don't know the specifics....
> Scott.
> --
> Scott Nutter
> 1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera
> installed MSD Atomic EFI
> Houston, Texas
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345779 is a reply to message #345768] |
Sat, 27 July 2019 10:54 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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With a single wire alternator and an isolator, all systems wll be running.7V low. This makes everything slow and dim and will lengthen the charge times significantly as well as sulfate the batteries in short order. Not good
Also a 10 min dwell time seems way too long. Heat saturation will happen way before that. In my mind 30 seconds high load on and 1 min off to cool seems more reasonable. The diodes temp rise will happen faster than the rotor and stator due to mass, and cool down rates would be inverse.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345780 is a reply to message #345768] |
Sat, 27 July 2019 11:02 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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GM offered a 145 amp Delco alternator on some of our coaches. You can find it in a 1978 parts book or also looking at the chassis wiring diagram for a 1978 transmode. Roger Black had one on his coach. I tried to talk him out of it one time but I was not successful.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345783 is a reply to message #345781] |
Sat, 27 July 2019 13:11 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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We need to clarify some commonly held beliefs.
1. A lead acid storage batter's ideal state of charge at 70°
farenheit, corrected to 30.0 inches of mercury, with a specific gravity of
1.260 should be 2.2 volts d.c. So, a 6 cell battery should have an ideal
state of charge of 13.2 volts d.c.
So to overcome the counterelectromotive forces present in the on board
systems, a charging voltage of sufficient strength to overcome that CEMF
will be required to overcome it.
G.M. decided to set that regulated voltage to a minimum of 14 volts to
take care of things like voltage drops. An accurate VOM that will read to
the 3rd decimal point is very useful to diagnose charging system issues.
A healthy GM DELCO charging system will show at least 14.5 on the low
side, and not much over 15.0 volts under any conditions.
End result is, ".7 volt drops do not cause any problems when it comes
to charging lead acid wet cell batteries. So, my best advice is, to forget
about it.
Oh yes, I learned all that in General Motors Technical Training School.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
On Sat, Jul 27, 2019, 9:21 AM Randy Hecht via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> What was the model number for the 145amp Delco?
>
>> On Jul 27, 2019, at 11:54 AM, John R. Lebetski via Gmclist gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
>>
>> With a single wire alternator and an isolator, all systems wll be
> running.7V low. This makes everything slow and dim and will lengthen the
> charge
>> times significantly as well as sulfate the batteries in short order. Not
> good
>> Also a 10 min dwell time seems way too long. Heat saturation will happen
> way before that. In my mind 30 seconds high load on and 1 min off to cool
>> seems more reasonable. The diodes temp rise will happen faster than the
> rotor and stator due to mass, and cool down rates would be inverse.
>> --
>> John Lebetski
>> Woodstock, IL
>> 77 Eleganza II
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345785 is a reply to message #345768] |
Sat, 27 July 2019 16:29 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Hmmm a while back Matt had posted otherwise. It took forever to charge banks. And do you want your blower to run slower? There is more to it and that is temperature. Charge voltage needs to increase cold and decrease hot to match battery needs. Fortunately the Delco voltage regulators are thermal compensating inverse to temperature. Engine compartment temp estimates batt temp. Mopar used actual battery temp sensor in the tray on my 99 Jeep. Only downside is the VR is the ECM, if it fails.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345928 is a reply to message #345768] |
Thu, 01 August 2019 19:33 |
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SeanKidd
Messages: 747
Registered: June 2012
Location: Northern Neck Virginia
Karma: 4
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I found this:
https://www.qualitypowerauto.com/item_66/J-Mount-Conversion-Kits.htm
Since the 27SI frame is hard to find, this could allow a 10SI, but I can't find dimensions. BTW, Jim Bounds just published a similar paper in his "daily pose" addressing the need for a more modern alternator.
I'm at 98 Amps, which includes dash blower, Ac clutch, 2 cheekwall auxillary evaporators and solenoids, twin dash trucker fans, electric fuel pump, lights, radio, HEI, viair air compressor, house loads include 12v 3 way fridge, and misc.
I lost my 3rd alternator in 3 years. And looking to update alternator, main feeder, isolator, etc.
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
Colonial Travelers
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345930 is a reply to message #345928] |
Thu, 01 August 2019 20:46 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Bite the bullet, buy what Jim B offers, and don't look back!
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Sean Kidd via Gmclist
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 19:33
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Sean Kidd
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Alternators
I found this:
https://www.qualitypowerauto.com/item_66/J-Mount-Conversion-Kits.htm
Since the 27SI frame is hard to find, this could allow a 10SI, but I can't find dimensions. BTW, Jim Bounds just published a similar paper in his
"daily pose" addressing the need for a more modern alternator.
I'm at 98 Amps, which includes dash blower, Ac clutch, 2 cheekwall auxillary evaporators and solenoids, twin dash trucker fans, electric fuel pump,
lights, radio, HEI, viair air compressor, house loads include 12v 3 way fridge, and misc.
I lost my 3rd alternator in 3 years. And looking to update alternator, main feeder, isolator, etc.
--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
Colonial Travelers
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345936 is a reply to message #345768] |
Thu, 01 August 2019 22:32 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
Karma: 4
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Mac might be right.. I'm biting the bullet!,
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345946 is a reply to message #345768] |
Fri, 02 August 2019 11:05 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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In my circumstance the stock 80 - 100 amp alternators work fine as long as they work, and then they give me a freebie 'nother one. The house system has only to hold the icebox and stuff till I get it parked and shore powered or the genset running and happy. The rest of the time the 12v supply has a battery minder in it.
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #345949 is a reply to message #345930] |
Fri, 02 August 2019 11:23 |
6cuda6
Messages: 975
Registered: June 2019
Karma: -6
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k2gkk wrote on Thu, 01 August 2019 21:46Bite the bullet, buy what Jim B offers, and don't look back!
D C "Mac" Macdonald
Amateur Radio K2GKK
Since 30 November '53
USAF and FAA, Retired
Member GMCMI & Classics
Oklahoma City, OK
"The Money Pit"
TZE166V101966
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of Sean Kidd via Gmclist
Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 19:33
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Cc: Sean Kidd
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Alternators
I found this:
https://www.qualitypowerauto.com/item_66/J-Mount-Conversion-Kits.htm
Since the 27SI frame is hard to find, this could allow a 10SI, but I can't find dimensions. BTW, Jim Bounds just published a similar paper in his
"daily pose" addressing the need for a more modern alternator.
I'm at 98 Amps, which includes dash blower, Ac clutch, 2 cheekwall auxillary evaporators and solenoids, twin dash trucker fans, electric fuel pump,
lights, radio, HEI, viair air compressor, house loads include 12v 3 way fridge, and misc.
I lost my 3rd alternator in 3 years. And looking to update alternator, main feeder, isolator, etc.
--
Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
Colonial Travelers
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If you decide to go down the "add-on" bracket route i would recommend looking at the pieces in person because if they dont have stopper bosses on the side that touches the alternator bracket they will rotate or become missaligned.....played with this sort of thing many years ago.
Rich Mondor,
Brockville, ON
77 Hughes 2600
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #346712 is a reply to message #345949] |
Wed, 21 August 2019 16:25 |
amansfield1104
Messages: 80
Registered: August 2009
Karma: 0
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I went thru 3 alternators. I found out that the rebuilt alternator were the real problem. Make sure the alternator was rebuilt in the US or have one rebuilt. My last one was rebuilt in USA and has been working fine.
I lost a starter motor in mid PA and no one had one. I found a rebuilt shop. He rebuilt right away and got me on the road. I talked the the owner and asked him if all these new suppliers were hurting his business. He said they help his business as rebuilt are not rebuilt. They are just fix so the may operate for a short while. I told him about my alternator problem and he said yes they are not properly repaired. Alternators are the worst as to quick fix.
All I know is that rebuilt starter spins the 455 like it nothing.
Art
> On Aug 2, 2019, at 11:23 AM, tonka6cuda6--- via Gmclist wrote:
>
> k2gkk wrote on Thu, 01 August 2019 21:46
>> Bite the bullet, buy what Jim B offers, and don't look back!
>>
>> D C "Mac" Macdonald
>> Amateur Radio K2GKK
>> Since 30 November '53
>> USAF and FAA, Retired
>> Member GMCMI & Classics
>> Oklahoma City, OK
>> "The Money Pit"
>> TZE166V101966
>> ________________________________
>> From: Gmclist on behalf of Sean Kidd via Gmclist
>> Sent: Thursday, August 1, 2019 19:33
>> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
>> Cc: Sean Kidd
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Alternators
>>
>> I found this:
>> https://www.qualitypowerauto.com/item_66/J-Mount-Conversion-Kits.htm
>>
>> Since the 27SI frame is hard to find, this could allow a 10SI, but I can't find dimensions. BTW, Jim Bounds just published a similar paper in
>> his
>> "daily pose" addressing the need for a more modern alternator.
>>
>> I'm at 98 Amps, which includes dash blower, Ac clutch, 2 cheekwall auxillary evaporators and solenoids, twin dash trucker fans, electric fuel
>> pump,
>> lights, radio, HEI, viair air compressor, house loads include 12v 3 way fridge, and misc.
>>
>> I lost my 3rd alternator in 3 years. And looking to update alternator, main feeder, isolator, etc.
>> --
>> Sean and Stephanie
>> 73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
>> Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
>>
>> Colonial Travelers
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
> If you decide to go down the "add-on" bracket route i would recommend looking at the pieces in person because if they dont have stopper bosses on the
> side that touches the alternator bracket they will rotate or become missaligned.....played with this sort of thing many years ago.
>
> --
> Rich Mondor,
>
> Brockville, ON
>
> 77 Hughes 2600
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Alternators [message #346713 is a reply to message #345768] |
Wed, 21 August 2019 17:25 |
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ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
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Senior Member |
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I'm really looking forward to your presentation, Jerry. It seems to me that charging from the alternator poses part of the puzzle, the converter completes the puzzle. If some kind of "choke" could be placed between the new batteries and the charging sources - enough to protect the old charging source - then the problem of over current would be solved without the need to rewire the coach and replace the alternator. When we're driving it's usually for a significant distance, these aren't grocery getters, so a slow charge isn't a hindrance. This diminishes the benefits of the new batters a little.
The Ram Truck mild hybrid system is interesting - a large motor / generator attached to a 48v battery bank. I suspect the generator is substantial. I doubt it would fit in our rigs, though.
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
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