Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter solenoid?
| [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter solenoid? [message #345179] |
Fri, 12 July 2019 10:54  |
Ek_Lektro
Messages: 167
Registered: March 2011
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Hey GMC friends,
We’re temporarily stranded, but fortunately with some tools and parts onboard, but a bit puzzled here:
The RV won’t start, despite a new starter installed a year ago, and a battery reading 12.6 volts,
plus good cables and connections from battery to post to starter, etc.
Last year, before replacing the starter, it always took 2 turns of the key before the RV would turn over at all.
I thought that maybe it was an old failing solenoid needing more time to engage, but after changing out the starter
and solenoid, this "2 turns” problem remained. but it ALWAYS started on the 2nd key turn, so it was put on my “fix later” list,
and, i carried around my rebuilt starter as a spare just in case.
Well last week, after a hot highway drive, i noticed on the 2nd turn of the key, the turn-over of the engine was slow and weak, despite the battery
showing good voltage; but fortunately battery boost got the job done.
This is when i checked battery connections, cables, and starter cable as well… no issues.
The next day (on cold engine), it still required battery boost to start, but i was confident enough to take this little trip to the beach,
with my tools of course. Well last night even battery boost couldn’t give us more than just a click… after 2 turns of the key (sometimes 3).
So the solenoid is getting power (enough power?)… , but my questions are:
Is it more likely to be the ignition switch or the ignition key switch that is causing the need for 2 turns of the key?
Seems the ignition key switch is a bit wobbly, but when inspecting the ignition switch on the steering column, nothing looks loose.
Does the click of the solenoid suggest that the ignition switch(es) are doing their job, delivering all the power they can?
or could this 2-turn issue suggest that there’s also extreme resistance going on, and perhaps its the switches that are the fault,
not delivering enough power? If the ignition key switch might be failing, can the “reach” of the ignition switch be adjusted, so the metal arm raises higher, for better connection? All i need is to get the coach home, and then i’ll install a new $15 ignition switch as a matter of troubleshooting if needed. (BTW: i know i bypassed the neutral safety switch years ago, and all its wiring looks fine )
I remember there’s a way to over-ride the ignition switch (and the ignition key switch at the same time? and hot-wire the coach,
but i don’t remember the steps involved. Would this be the next thing to try?
I also recall that its possible to put a screwdriver to the starter solenoid, but would like to make this the last resort test if possible.
(as well as swapping the starter and solenoid, roadside! i’ve never been able to do it without doing an oil change at the same time,
with that filter in the way, and i don’t have all those supplies with me! but hey, whatever it takes to avoid a 40 mile tow home...
BTW: The voltmeter shows a 1/2 volt drop at the battery, when i tested it yesterday;
both without battery boost (when it only gave a click), and with battery boost, when it actually started up; and with a 1/2 volt drop, believe this shows normal battery?
OK, i’m on the digest version of the forum, so due to the time sensitive nature (cops are giving me to 1pm before talking about towing),
so if you could email me directly with any tips, i’ll be quite obliged
and many thanks!
Greg Weber
’78 Eleganza II and ’76 Birchhaven custom cut-down 21’ footer
(considering selling it, and maybe that’s why its acting up!)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter solenoid? [message #345180 is a reply to message #345179] |
Fri, 12 July 2019 11:10  |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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A battery reading of 12.6 volts indicates a low battery. A fully charged good battery should have 13.1 to 13.3 volts. You likely need a new battery. That is probably you had to use the boost in the past.
Having to turn the key twice is indicative of a failing ignition switch. The switch down at the bottom of the steering column. It could just be out of adjustment so the rod from the key isn’t pushing the switch to the correct position for starting.
You could bypass that by turning on the key and lying under the motorhome touching a jumper from the battery to the small wire on the solenoid. You might also be able to just short from the large wire in the solenoid to the small wire with a screwdriver.
Emery Stora
> On Jul 12, 2019, at 9:54 AM, Ek Lektro via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Hey GMC friends,
> We’re temporarily stranded, but fortunately with some tools and parts onboard, but a bit puzzled here:
> The RV won’t start, despite a new starter installed a year ago, and a battery reading 12.6 volts,
> plus good cables and connections from battery to post to starter, etc.
>
> Last year, before replacing the starter, it always took 2 turns of the key before the RV would turn over at all.
> I thought that maybe it was an old failing solenoid needing more time to engage, but after changing out the starter
> and solenoid, this "2 turns” problem remained. but it ALWAYS started on the 2nd key turn, so it was put on my “fix later” list,
> and, i carried around my rebuilt starter as a spare just in case.
>
> Well last week, after a hot highway drive, i noticed on the 2nd turn of the key, the turn-over of the engine was slow and weak, despite the battery
> showing good voltage; but fortunately battery boost got the job done.
> This is when i checked battery connections, cables, and starter cable as well… no issues.
> The next day (on cold engine), it still required battery boost to start, but i was confident enough to take this little trip to the beach,
> with my tools of course. Well last night even battery boost couldn’t give us more than just a click… after 2 turns of the key (sometimes 3).
> So the solenoid is getting power (enough power?)… , but my questions are:
>
> Is it more likely to be the ignition switch or the ignition key switch that is causing the need for 2 turns of the key?
> Seems the ignition key switch is a bit wobbly, but when inspecting the ignition switch on the steering column, nothing looks loose.
> Does the click of the solenoid suggest that the ignition switch(es) are doing their job, delivering all the power they can?
> or could this 2-turn issue suggest that there’s also extreme resistance going on, and perhaps its the switches that are the fault,
> not delivering enough power? If the ignition key switch might be failing, can the “reach” of the ignition switch be adjusted, so the metal arm raises higher, for better connection? All i need is to get the coach home, and then i’ll install a new $15 ignition switch as a matter of troubleshooting if needed. (BTW: i know i bypassed the neutral safety switch years ago, and all its wiring looks fine )
>
> I remember there’s a way to over-ride the ignition switch (and the ignition key switch at the same time? and hot-wire the coach,
> but i don’t remember the steps involved. Would this be the next thing to try?
>
> I also recall that its possible to put a screwdriver to the starter solenoid, but would like to make this the last resort test if possible.
> (as well as swapping the starter and solenoid, roadside! i’ve never been able to do it without doing an oil change at the same time,
> with that filter in the way, and i don’t have all those supplies with me! but hey, whatever it takes to avoid a 40 mile tow home...
> BTW: The voltmeter shows a 1/2 volt drop at the battery, when i tested it yesterday;
> both without battery boost (when it only gave a click), and with battery boost, when it actually started up; and with a 1/2 volt drop, believe this shows normal battery?
>
> OK, i’m on the digest version of the forum, so due to the time sensitive nature (cops are giving me to 1pm before talking about towing),
> so if you could email me directly with any tips, i’ll be quite obliged
> and many thanks!
> Greg Weber
> ’78 Eleganza II and ’76 Birchhaven custom cut-down 21’ footer
> (considering selling it, and maybe that’s why its acting up!)
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter solenoid? [message #345190 is a reply to message #345179] |
Fri, 12 July 2019 13:14 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Can't see what email address to email.
If you tried turning key in neutral.
Get a 3/8 or 10mm if someone changed them and remove passenger wheel liner.
Make sure it stays in park with someone holding the brake. Have someone inside
And have them start it, and someone else reach over the tire and you will see the starter solenoid and carefully touch the inner small lug to the outer big lug(where battery connects) It should crank. If not, it is time to swap starter or you have bad battery/cables.
Get somewhere safe and then figure out ignition switch or neutral safety switch problems.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter solenoid? [message #345205 is a reply to message #345179] |
Fri, 12 July 2019 21:45 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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Sir: Ek Lektro sounds like an electronics super hero with a cape.. so this should be simple.... a double tumbler turn is not right. Try raising the tilt wheel to make the rod pull further. Next remove the lower dash cover and try loosening the 2 screws that hold the ignition switch vertically to the column under the dash and slide the switch down toward the floor bout 1/4" or so and tighten the 2 screws back down. You can also try holding the key in the start position as you move the tranny leaver thru the gears from full park to low and see if it turns over anywhere. If you are still experiencing problems chances are you have an internal problem. The plastic gear or the rack gear is broke or the housing is busted or the tumbler is broke. If you have to you can remove the 2 screws that hold the ignition switch and raise it up and off the control rod and insert a small screwdriver or strong piece of wire like coat hanger in hole in ignition switch where control rod was and operate ignition switch manually by hand. If you find you need parts send me a pm or email or message or call me. Contact info is on the Black list and I can send you parts.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/s-10-steering-wheel-caddy-conversion/p47937-dsc00284.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/s-10-steering-wheel-caddy-conversion/p48874-ignition-switch.html
Ek_Lektro wrote on Fri, 12 July 2019 11:54Hey GMC friends,
We're temporarily stranded, but fortunately with some tools and parts onboard, but a bit puzzled here:
The RV won't start, despite a new starter installed a year ago, and a battery reading 12.6 volts,
plus good cables and connections from battery to post to starter, etc.
Last year, before replacing the starter, it always took 2 turns of the key before the RV would turn over at all.
I thought that maybe it was an old failing solenoid needing more time to engage, but after changing out the starter
and solenoid, this "2 turns" problem remained. but it ALWAYS started on the 2nd key turn, so it was put on my "fix later" list,
and, i carried around my rebuilt starter as a spare just in case.
Well last week, after a hot highway drive, i noticed on the 2nd turn of the key, the turn-over of the engine was slow and weak, despite the battery
showing good voltage; but fortunately battery boost got the job done.
This is when i checked battery connections, cables, and starter cable as well... no issues.
The next day (on cold engine), it still required battery boost to start, but i was confident enough to take this little trip to the beach,
with my tools of course. Well last night even battery boost couldn't give us more than just a click... after 2 turns of the key (sometimes 3).
So the solenoid is getting power (enough power?)... , but my questions are:
Is it more likely to be the ignition switch or the ignition key switch that is causing the need for 2 turns of the key?
Seems the ignition key switch is a bit wobbly, but when inspecting the ignition switch on the steering column, nothing looks loose.
Does the click of the solenoid suggest that the ignition switch(es) are doing their job, delivering all the power they can?
or could this 2-turn issue suggest that there's also extreme resistance going on, and perhaps its the switches that are the fault,
not delivering enough power? If the ignition key switch might be failing, can the "reach" of the ignition switch be adjusted, so the metal arm raises higher, for better connection? All i need is to get the coach home, and then i'll install a new $15 ignition switch as a matter of troubleshooting if needed. (BTW: i know i bypassed the neutral safety switch years ago, and all its wiring looks fine )
I remember there's a way to over-ride the ignition switch (and the ignition key switch at the same time? and hot-wire the coach,
but i don't remember the steps involved. Would this be the next thing to try?
I also recall that its possible to put a screwdriver to the starter solenoid, but would like to make this the last resort test if possible.
(as well as swapping the starter and solenoid, roadside! i've never been able to do it without doing an oil change at the same time,
with that filter in the way, and i don't have all those supplies with me! but hey, whatever it takes to avoid a 40 mile tow home...
BTW: The voltmeter shows a 1/2 volt drop at the battery, when i tested it yesterday;
both without battery boost (when it only gave a click), and with battery boost, when it actually started up; and with a 1/2 volt drop, believe this shows normal battery?
OK, i'm on the digest version of the forum, so due to the time sensitive nature (cops are giving me to 1pm before talking about towing),
so if you could email me directly with any tips, i'll be quite obliged
and many thanks!
Greg Weber
'78 Eleganza II and '76 Birchhaven custom cut-down 21' footer
(considering selling it, and maybe that's why its acting up!)
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter [message #345211 is a reply to message #345179] |
Sat, 13 July 2019 01:36 |
Ek_Lektro
Messages: 167
Registered: March 2011
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
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OK, progress update: I put in the new ignition switch, and it helped… somewhat. With battery boost, i can start the engine, in certain tilt positions. Now there’s no more need to turn the key 2x, however, the "sweet spot" is very elusive, definitely affected by wheel tilt,
So i’m not out of the woods yet. And... its starting to look like i have (4) separate minor issues that all finally added up to the major fail, last night.
1) Ignition switch, I’m gonna try adjusting it tomorrow, based on Charles’ suggestions
> Try raising the tilt wheel to make the rod pull further. Next remove the lower dash cover and try loosening the 2 screws that hold the ignition switch vertically to the column under the dash and slide the switch down toward the floor bout 1/4" or so and tighten the 2 screws back down. You can also try holding the key in the start position as you move the tranny leaver thru the gears from full park to low and see if it turns over anywhere. If you are still experiencing problems chances are you have an internal problem. The plastic gear or the rack gear is broke or the housing is busted or the tumbler is broke.
2) the tumbler was always a little bit “loose”… But now, the whole mechanism moves about 3/4” with the turn of the key
(maybe part of this is because the new ignition switch needs some adjustment?)
I don’t see any way to tighten the tumbler(?)… so maybe i should replace this while i’m at it (not expensive)
Autozone has the tumbler in stock, and they also loan out the steering wheel removal tool.
Any caveats on doing this job? I watched it being done, years ago, but didn’t take notes.
> Did you cross the small terminal on the solenoid with the large terminal on there?
> --- If you did and it cranked. then the starter is not your issue. (today)
hey Matt, backing up, Yes, large to small terminal and it started. So… both the starter and solenoid are probably OK?
3) I’m a bit concerned about the small wire terminal, turning internally when i tried to tighten it.
I’m guessing this is a causing a bit more resistance.
4) Lastly, the one battery cell that was super low on water… i brought it up to the proper level, and i have the battery
on a 10 amp charge tonight. Its an old reliable Sears charger, and the light goes green when it detects a fully charged battery. (Do engine start batteries respond to 15.2 volt Equalization charges, same as deep cycle batteries do?)
We’ll see if i can get it to crank without battery boost tmrw. If not, then i’m gonna have to look more closely at replacing the starter/solenoid. The Duralast starter/solenoid combo has the lifetime warranty, and i have a spare here at home anyway, so no need to swap just the solenoid, since it’d surely void the warranty
Recapping the (4) different problems: Its hard to believe that up until last week, the worst thing i experienced was having to turn the key twice, ha! But long story / short, i’m getting ready to possibly sell this custom 21’ Birchhaven (and get back to simple one-coach Eleganza living), So gotta start by making it turn-key!
Thanks again, everybody, More news tomorrow, cheers
Greg / SolarSonic / Los Angeles
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter [message #345410 is a reply to message #345179] |
Tue, 16 July 2019 14:35 |
Ek_Lektro
Messages: 167
Registered: March 2011
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Well here’s the update,… and i wish it was better news.
Having now tried the 3 main suspects in the system
1) good/working battery swapped from other RV
2) new ignition switch
3) new starter / new solenoid (needed to be swapped eventually, due to a stripped solenoid connection, the nut on the small post just turns..
(i really thought this iffy connection was gonna be my problem!)
All that, and we get nothing more than a solenoid click, even with battery boost.
So,,, assuming (and this is a big assumption) that Autozone gave me a good starter, and good ignition switch,,
What’s the next step?
1) the ignition key tumbler?
(would like to avoid embarking on this project if at all possible, pulling the steering wheel,)…,
so is there a test i can do to rule the ignition tumbler out?) (or is the click enough to prove its doing its job?
or does this also pass electricity, might have internal resistance?)
2) further experimenting with adjusting the ignition switch(?)
but i’ve adjusted it up and down, and with different wheel tilt positions and not experiencing any difference.. just the click
3) something else in the wiring?? i’m going to take a closer look at the alarm kill switch,
but i don’t think this is it, since i don’t think it would even pass power for a solenoid click.
And forgive my ignorance, but the "ignition module"(?)… This would not prevent the motor from turning over, right?
just stop it from firing up?
Unrelated issue? After i jumped the solenoid posts with a screwdriver, and started driving it home; 10 miles into the drive,
i noticed that the idle was extraordinarily high. sitting at a traffic light, had to hold the brake down tight. put it in neutral and it was racingd crazy. couldn’t diagnose it on the road, especially since i wasn’t sure i could get the thing started again! made it home. started it up that evening with warm engine. idled 10 minutes in the driveway with no issue. inspected the accelerator cable, spring, carb adjusting screw (on a 1yr old rebuilt carb); everything looks normal! Weird.
OK, Any new insights or tests to perform would be well appreciated!
Many thanks,l
Greg / Los Angeles
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter [message #345411 is a reply to message #345410] |
Tue, 16 July 2019 14:42 |
emerystora
Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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Be sure to check your battery posts for a good clean connection. Also check the negative battery cable where it connects to the passenger side of the engine block.
Emery Stora
> On Jul 16, 2019, at 1:35 PM, Ek Lektro via Gmclist wrote:
>
> Well here’s the update,… and i wish it was better news.
> Having now tried the 3 main suspects in the system
> 1) good/working battery swapped from other RV
> 2) new ignition switch
> 3) new starter / new solenoid (needed to be swapped eventually, due to a stripped solenoid connection, the nut on the small post just turns..
> (i really thought this iffy connection was gonna be my problem!)
>
> All that, and we get nothing more than a solenoid click, even with battery boost.
> So,,, assuming (and this is a big assumption) that Autozone gave me a good starter, and good ignition switch,,
> What’s the next step?
>
> 1) the ignition key tumbler?
> (would like to avoid embarking on this project if at all possible, pulling the steering wheel,)…,
> so is there a test i can do to rule the ignition tumbler out?) (or is the click enough to prove its doing its job?
> or does this also pass electricity, might have internal resistance?)
>
> 2) further experimenting with adjusting the ignition switch(?)
> but i’ve adjusted it up and down, and with different wheel tilt positions and not experiencing any difference.. just the click
>
> 3) something else in the wiring?? i’m going to take a closer look at the alarm kill switch,
> but i don’t think this is it, since i don’t think it would even pass power for a solenoid click.
> And forgive my ignorance, but the "ignition module"(?)… This would not prevent the motor from turning over, right?
> just stop it from firing up?
>
> Unrelated issue? After i jumped the solenoid posts with a screwdriver, and started driving it home; 10 miles into the drive,
> i noticed that the idle was extraordinarily high. sitting at a traffic light, had to hold the brake down tight. put it in neutral and it was racingd crazy. couldn’t diagnose it on the road, especially since i wasn’t sure i could get the thing started again! made it home. started it up that evening with warm engine. idled 10 minutes in the driveway with no issue. inspected the accelerator cable, spring, carb adjusting screw (on a 1yr old rebuilt carb); everything looks normal! Weird.
>
> OK, Any new insights or tests to perform would be well appreciated!
> Many thanks,l
> Greg / Los Angeles
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter solenoid? [message #345412 is a reply to message #345179] |
Tue, 16 July 2019 14:55 |
 |
Michael Leipold
Messages: 318
Registered: April 2011
Location: Greensboro NC
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I also suffered from the 2 twists and it starts with some hesitation so this is what I did:
The starter was dying, I guess you can only hit it so many times with a hammer...
So I put in a new starter.
Then to fix the key...
I ran 12 volts to a momentary push button, fused of course.
I disconnected the neutral safety switch.
Determined which lead went to the starter solenoid.
Connected the momentary switch to that lead.
Now, I turn the key on, and push the button.
Cranks immediately with no hesitation.
I know, technically, you could engage the starter while running, but I am the only one that drives it and the button is flush with the dash so you really have to push it to engage it.
And yes, I can crank it without the key, but it will not start.
Someday I will rewire it, but for now, it works great.
1973 GMC 26' Glacier - Unknown Mileage - Has a new switch pitch transmission with Powerdrive 
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded: Ignition switch, key switch or starter solenoid? [message #345413 is a reply to message #345412] |
Tue, 16 July 2019 15:26 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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The ignition key absolutely has NO ELECTRICAL connection to anything. The
operating rod that moves the actual ignition switch located inside the
coach near the floor on the base of the steering column, is moved up and
down the column by a couple of VERY CRUDE spur gears and some Mickey mouse
linkages that work poorly when new, and worse as they age and get tinkered
with by people. You can check the rod function by turning the ignition key
and observation of the rod at the bottom of the column. If it works, my
advice would be to leave it alone.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019, 1:13 PM Michael via Gmclist
wrote:
> I also suffered from the 2 twists and it starts with some hesitation so
> this is what I did:
>
> The starter was dying, I guess you can only hit it so many times with a
> hammer...
> So I put in a new starter.
>
> Then to fix the key...
> I ran 12 volts to a momentary push button, fused of course.
> I disconnected the neutral safety switch.
> Determined which lead went to the starter solenoid.
> Connected the momentary switch to that lead.
>
> Now, I turn the key on, and push the button.
> Cranks immediately with no hesitation.
>
> I know, technically, you could engage the starter while running, but I am
> the only one that drives it and the button is flush with the dash so you
> really have to push it to engage it.
> And yes, I can crank it without the key, but it will not start.
>
> Someday I will rewire it, but for now, it works great.
>
> --
> 1973 GMC 26' Glacier - Unknown Mileage - Has a new switch pitch
> transmission with Powerdrive
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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