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| [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335252] |
Mon, 16 July 2018 11:59  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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G'day,
I am working on the start system on the Kingsley with the Caddy 500. As noted earlier I will be replacing the cable that connects
the rear house battery with the front house battery. I'll replace the whole section that goes from the boost solenoid to the
connection behind the driver side panel.
The Kingsley had two start batteries wired in parallel wired directly to the starter solenoid, it did not have a deep cycle battery.
The battery ground was wired directly to the block.
When I turned the ignition switch to the start position the starter labored to turn the engine over with two start batteries!
I cleaned all the connections and it made a bit of difference still the starter labored. When compared to the 455 Olds in the Avion
the Caddy starter is lame. I've removed the starter and was going to take it to be rebuilt, however, that might be a waste of money
as it might not be the correct starter for a Caddy 500.
I'd appreciate it if those of you who have Caddy 500's in their coach please advise what starter you are running and where you got
it.
Oh yeah, I have printed out ALL of Gene Fisher's articles on this subject from the GMCWS Website and will incorporate his
suggestions.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335254 is a reply to message #335252] |
Mon, 16 July 2018 12:21  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
If there's a difference between the Cad500 and the Olds455 starters, I've
never noticed it.
I just checked Rockauto for '76 Eldorado & '76 Toronado -- Same P/N:
3361845 $41.79+$15 core.
Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, Troy-Bilt APU, etc., etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 1:00 PM Rob Mueller wrote:
> G'day,
>
> I am working on the start system on the Kingsley with the Caddy 500. As
> noted earlier I will be replacing the cable that connects
> the rear house battery with the front house battery. I'll replace the
> whole section that goes from the boost solenoid to the
> connection behind the driver side panel.
>
> The Kingsley had two start batteries wired in parallel wired directly to
> the starter solenoid, it did not have a deep cycle battery.
> The battery ground was wired directly to the block.
>
> When I turned the ignition switch to the start position the starter
> labored to turn the engine over with two start batteries!
>
> I cleaned all the connections and it made a bit of difference still the
> starter labored. When compared to the 455 Olds in the Avion
> the Caddy starter is lame. I've removed the starter and was going to take
> it to be rebuilt, however, that might be a waste of money
> as it might not be the correct starter for a Caddy 500.
>
> I'd appreciate it if those of you who have Caddy 500's in their coach
> please advise what starter you are running and where you got
> it.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335259 is a reply to message #335252] |
Mon, 16 July 2018 13:19 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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When I changed from 455 to 500, I used the starter that came off of the 455. Have had it rebuilt by a Starter/motor rebuilder once. The only issue I've had, is not running large enough cables. As soon as I replaced the existing cables with the largest I could find, my slow start hot, resolved itself. So, run the largest diameter cable you can find in shortest length you can get away with from negative to a shut-off switch, to the block, and from positive, to the solenoid. JWID
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 July 2018 13:21] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335261 is a reply to message #335259] |
Mon, 16 July 2018 14:02 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Rob, the starter is the same in the cad 500 as the Olds 455. Make sure the
battery cables are as big as your index finger, and as short as possible.
Hook it up like Gene Fisher Says. Make sure the transmission to frame
ground strap is present. Those get left off sometimes on engine swaps. They
are important. Batteries should be checked for amperage as well as voltage.
Simple check would be to turn on headlights, heater blower on high, and
anything else on the engine battery, then try to start it. If it cranks
slow, the lights dim, heater blower slows, etc. Then you either have a
dragging starter armature, discharged or faulty batteries, loose battery
cables, or an engine issue of some kind.
Jim Hupy
On Mon, Jul 16, 2018, 11:20 AM Larry wrote:
> When I changed from 455 to 500, I used the starter that came off of the
> 455. Have had it rebuilt by a Starter/motor rebuilder once. The only issue
> I've had, is not running large enough cables. As soon as I replaced the
> existing cables with the largest I could find, my slow start hot, resolved
> itself. So, run the largest diameter cable you can find in shortest length
> you can get away with from negative to the block, and from positive to a
> shut-off switch, to the solenoid. JWID
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335267 is a reply to message #335252] |
Mon, 16 July 2018 15:24 |
Kosier
Messages: 834
Registered: February 2008
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
The motor always started perfectly in the original Cadillac. So, if you
make everything perfect, it will do the same for you.
I don't like to do anything over, so I try to get it right the first time
start with an Optima battery, big new cables connected
as per GM and make the starter new. New, lubricated bushings in each end.
Everything the current passes through must
make a good connection. Twelve years and I've not had to touch anything.
Gary Kosier
77PB w/500Cad
Newark, Ohio
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Rob Mueller"
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 12:59 PM
To:
Subject: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter
> G'day,
>
> I am working on the start system on the Kingsley with the Caddy 500. As
> noted earlier I will be replacing the cable that connects
> the rear house battery with the front house battery. I'll replace the
> whole section that goes from the boost solenoid to the
> connection behind the driver side panel.
>
> The Kingsley had two start batteries wired in parallel wired directly to
> the starter solenoid, it did not have a deep cycle battery.
> The battery ground was wired directly to the block.
>
> When I turned the ignition switch to the start position the starter
> labored to turn the engine over with two start batteries!
>
> I cleaned all the connections and it made a bit of difference still the
> starter labored. When compared to the 455 Olds in the Avion
> the Caddy starter is lame. I've removed the starter and was going to take
> it to be rebuilt, however, that might be a waste of money
> as it might not be the correct starter for a Caddy 500.
>
> I'd appreciate it if those of you who have Caddy 500's in their coach
> please advise what starter you are running and where you got
> it.
>
> Oh yeah, I have printed out ALL of Gene Fisher's articles on this subject
> from the GMCWS Website and will incorporate his
> suggestions.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335281 is a reply to message #335279] |
Mon, 16 July 2018 22:24 |
hal kading
Messages: 642
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Cruces NM
Karma: 4
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
Heat shrink with integral adhesive/sealer for the cable terminals. Red and Black split wire loom sized for the cable.
Hal Kading 1978 Buskirk Stretch 502 Las Cruces NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335285 is a reply to message #335279] |
Mon, 16 July 2018 23:55 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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USAussie wrote on Mon, 16 July 2018 21:38G'day,
Thanks Mates!
Plan of attack:
1) have the starter rebuilt at Fred's Automotive (John Sharpe's recommendation)
2) buy enough red 2/0 cable to:
a) replace the wire from the boost solenoid to the terminal stud behind the drivers side panel
b) run a cable directly from the battery to the positive terminal on the starter solenoid
3) buy enough black 2/0 cable to:
a) run a ground cable from the battery to the engine block
b) run a ground cable from the battery to the frame
4) make sure the transmission ground strap is connected to the frame
5) review Gene's presentations to see if there's anything else I should do
Anything else?
Regards,
Rob M.
Rob, You are proposing to do a few extra things here that will not buy you anything. The battery is an accessory much like a lot of other things. It has one main function in life and that is to provide high cranking current to the starter and voltage to the ignition system DURING STARTING ONLY. Once the engine is started all 12 vdc power is supplied by the engine mounted alternator not the battery. And in fact the battery can be disconnected and removed once the engine is running.
So if your intention is to make the starter run efficiently then work only on what runs the starter.
1. A good condition short heavy battery cable from cable from engine battery negative to engine block. A second cable running from battery negative to the frame will buy you nothing as there is nothing attached to the frame that is powered from the battery.
2. A good condition short as practical heavy battery cable from Engine battery positive to the starter solenoid. This can be one piece or 2 pieces as GM deigned it. The important thing here is a good condition cable(s) with good electrically clean connections. A few feet difference in length between the single cable and the OEM 2 cable approach provides an insignificant difference in resistance and voltage drop but clean connections are everything.
That is it for engine starting cable integrity.
There is a big difference in cranking current and load current paths once the engine is running. After starting the battery becomes a current user just like the heater fan or headlights. This current is consumed in recharging the battery. This current for charging and everything else 12vdc is supplied by the alternator. The alternator also supplies charging current to the house battery(s) throught as separate path. This is where the frame electrical connection comes in.
The house battery(s) are negative connected to the aluminum body. In order to have a ground path from the engine driven alternator, which is attached and grounded to the engine, and the aluminum body a connection could have been done with a single heavy cable. GM instead chose to use another big conductor they already had available. They used the steel coach frame. So to complete the path they installed one ground strap on the rear of the trans to the frame and a second strap from the frame to the aluminum body. There actually is another parallel strap between the body and the frame if you have an Onan generator installed.
Since none of this above stuff other than item 1 and 2 have anything to do with the battery, starter, or high current draw when starting, none of it needs to be "upgraded".
That is my story and I'm standing by it.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Caddy 500 Starter [message #335479 is a reply to message #335285] |
Sun, 22 July 2018 23:31 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
Progress report:
1) I disassembled the starter and noted that the connecting bars that go from the solenoid to the starter were REALLY close to the starter housing and the insulator had perished, it fell apart when I disconnected the connecting bars from the solenoid. The starter is now at Fred's being rebuilt.
2a) I got the driver side panel out today (not without breaking it) and lo and behold there isn't a stud behind it with the large cable connected to it! DAMN! I'll just cut the cable somewhere convenient and splice a new piece to connect to the batteries.
I ordered 4 Trojan T-145 6VDC batteries (two up front and two down the back, that will provide more DC power than I'll ever need.
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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