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| [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334469] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 01:04  |
richshoop
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2017
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Found a very good wiring related resource.http://www.waytekwire.com and their very useful blog wired2serve.
Every time I hear someone suggesting to solder larger size wire to lugs it sends shivers down my back! It reminds me yet again of just that sort of connection that exploded inside a power supply. Listen to the manufacturers of the lugs and ONLY use the recommended termination tools, especially on larger wire.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334471 is a reply to message #334469] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 06:33  |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Richard,
I wish you'd amplify your comments on soldered terminals. I've been
fooling with such stuff for over 60 years, including an MSEE, yet I've
never heard any problem with soldered terminal lugs -- generally
considering them the best possible termination.
Ken H.
On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 2:05 AM RICHARD/MARLI SHOOP
wrote:
> ...
>
> Every time I hear someone suggesting to solder larger size wire to lugs it
> sends shivers down my back! It reminds me yet again of just that sort of
> connection that exploded inside a power supply. Listen to the manufacturers
> of the lugs and ONLY use the recommended termination tools, especially on
> larger wire.
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334478 is a reply to message #334469] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 07:35 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I can't amplify but I can say one of the transmitter manufacturers noted, never solder the large crimp =- ons on the primary transformer wiring. Use the recommended crimp tool. I always took those guys at their word, I've never asked why.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334489 is a reply to message #334478] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 10:23 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Tue, 03 July 2018 08:35I can't amplify but I can say one of the transmitter manufacturers noted, never solder the large crimp =- ons on the primary transformer wiring. Use the recommended crimp tool. I always took those guys at their word, I've never asked why.
--johnny
Johnny,
The reason given for this is that the solder was thought to form "hard spot" that might cause a fatigue failure.
This localized load is not supposed to exist in a properly swaged terminal.
A proper swage terminal and process should result in a gas tight junction. Please note that I said should. The only way to properly inspect the process is to cut, mount and polish (like in a metallurgical lab) and examine the cross section for voids. If there are voids present, the joint can corrode internally.
A proper solder joint will have no internal voids. It is gas tight and cannot corrode inside. It has also been discovered that the solder will wick farther up the center of the stranded conductor thus spreading out the junction load so there is no hard spot.
For clients, on large cable, I use the bolt cutter like swaging tool. For my own, I take the tip out of an old soldering gun and use that to heat the terminal very directly. That works great on small copper lines too.
Now that you have read all that, make up your own mind.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334493 is a reply to message #334478] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 10:30 |
richshoop
Messages: 190
Registered: April 2017
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There are several reasons why:
1) There is no way you can guarantee that all of those fine strands in the cable ALL got tinned and all got soldered. Use a pair of $79.00 hydraulic crimp tools from Ebay.
2) When you do solder the wire to a crimp type connector, you create a hard spot away from the connector that will fail with any vibration. According to my Fluke 8042A, the resistance across the connection is higher than a straight crimp.
Trying to reattach a lug on old wire is a bad idea as there is no practical way to clean all those fine conductors before you attach the lug by what ever means. Using my trusty 8042A, a connection made on old cable, chemically cleaned, followed by scotchbrite, then crimped with a hydraulic crimper with the correct die, resulted in a connection that had five times the resistance of a factory crimped assembly. (Ever wonder why a field installed replacement battery terminal never lasts?)
Finally, be sure to keep in mind that heat shrink tubing, unless it is adhesive lined is NOT waterproof.
> On July 3, 2018 at 5:35 AM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist wrote:
>
>
> I can't amplify but I can say one of the transmitter manufacturers noted, never solder the large crimp =- ons on the primary transformer wiring. Use
> the recommended crimp tool. I always took those guys at their word, I've never asked why.
>
> --johnny
> --
> 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell" - ol Andy, paraphrased
>
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334511 is a reply to message #334469] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 13:44 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Ken, didja ever take the 'NASA Standard High Reliability Soldering and Connections' course at Keesler? Well worth the time spent. A properly tinned and soldered wire on a terminal will not come apart under vibration. What WILL come apart every time is where you stripped the wire, if you used other than a thermal stripper or a round tool stripper which was calibrated with a drill rod at shift start. Use dikes or a right angle stripper, make the connection and put it on the shake table.... and it come apart at the strip every time.
A soldered large crimp on copper cable will run hotter than a properly crimped alone one will. And unless you have the correct equipment you will either not get solder throughout the connection, or you'll melt the insulation for several inches. Either way, your trusty temp gun needs to see them fairly often.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334517 is a reply to message #334469] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 14:25 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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I've seen improperly swaged dissimilar metal connections come apart and catch fire at transmitter plants. The utility has aluminum wires and your weather head has copper. Properly put together they give no trouble. Poorly done and a couple of folks had to replace the entire drop to the panel, a not inconsiderable expense. And a zillion diesels died to keep them on the air while it was fixed.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334522 is a reply to message #334511] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 14:47 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Johnny,
Nope, I've always heard great things about the soldering course from those
who attended. Unfortunately, that wasn't for officers. We just had to
tell folks to do things, not actually do them. :-)
Sorta like my MSEE. I actually did about 5 minutes of real engineering
after USAF spent maybe $200K on it. I'm glad to report that 5 minutes
repaid the cost many times over, even if I could probably have do the job
before going back to school. But I did talk to and give orders to a LOT
of engineers after that.
Ken H.
On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 3:16 PM Johnny Bridges via Gmclist <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> Ken, didja ever take the 'NASA Standard High Reliability Soldering and
> Connections' course at Keesler? Well worth the time spent. A properly
> tinned
> and soldered wire on a terminal will not come apart under vibration. What
> WILL come apart every time is where you stripped the wire, if you used
> other than a thermal stripper or a round tool stripper which was
> calibrated with a drill rod at shift start. Use dikes or a right angle
> stripper,
> make the connection and put it on the shake table.... and it come apart at
> the strip every time.
> A soldered large crimp on copper cable will run hotter than a properly
> crimped alone one will. And unless you have the correct equipment you will
> either not get solder throughout the connection, or you'll melt the
> insulation for several inches. Either way, your trusty temp gun needs to
> see them
> fairly often.
>
> --johnny
>
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334534 is a reply to message #334469] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 19:50 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Someone needs to oversee those courses, and it would hafta be an officer. Too late for you, but perhaps some of the younger guys...
Actually I wonder if they still teach it. Everythings ghone to plug a new board.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334593 is a reply to message #334469] |
Wed, 04 July 2018 12:24 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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That I can understand. If memory serves, the MagnaFlux machine at Mac's had 2000 and 3000 markings on the DC ammeter. For crankshafts, it got up there. I've seen it ruin a Rolex. Only possible connection in the field is a properly swaged connector on clean bright copper. That will last.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334601 is a reply to message #334597] |
Wed, 04 July 2018 14:38 |
w schurman
Messages: 49
Registered: June 2015
Karma: 1
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Happy Fourth of July !! 82 with 13% humidity here in Steamboat Springs,
Colorado. Another day in paradise..But ALL of Colorado needs rain, too many
wild fires.
On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 1:09 PM, Brian Krikorian wrote:
> Well, as noted in another thread, I'm diwn in southern CA from Seattle.
> Supposed to be 108 degrees in the San Fernando Valley on Friday. One reason
> I
> don't miss SoCal sometimes
> --
> Brian K
> 1977 Eleganza II, TZE167V100261
> Bellevue, WA
> Rebuilt 455, New brake system, a lot of Original Equipment ready to fall
> apart (discovering more as I go along....)
>
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--
William S. Schurman
box 772806
Steamboat Springs, CO
80477
1978 Palm Beach
TZE168V100258
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| Re: [GMCnet] Electrical resources [message #334648 is a reply to message #334469] |
Thu, 05 July 2018 08:43 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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And the smoke smells like college days 
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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