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| Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334309] |
Sun, 01 July 2018 08:13  |
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RF_Burns
Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Found this in a FaceBook group I follow. Its a good read and makes you think!
DO NOT RUN PROPANE WHILE DRIVING...EVER - The debate rages on, and there will always be people that state "I've been doing it for years, and I never had a problem!"
First, I am an expert. I am a 30 year active firefighter, and a New York State Fire Instructor. I have been a medic for nearly 40 years, and have been on thousands of accidents, hundreds of fires, and have not only been a Rialta owner and RV hobbiest for years, but have also built custom limousine coaches on bus platforms. Further, I also am a NYS Certified and Licensed Inspector for natural gas, propane and electric appliances, and have been a NYS Certified Instructor on these topics since 2004, and have taught these subjects in 14 states, Toronto Ontario, and Vancouver B.C. I can honestly say, I am an expert. If there is anyone out there with a higher level of expertise, training and experience on this subject, please step forward.
Let's put this into perspective. Propane is refined for one purpose...to burn. It is designed to flow through any port or hole, and even those NOT intended. If you have ever lit up an old, worn propane grill, and had a "whooosh" as it lights up a gas pocket, or lights through a crack on the pipe, or through a rust hole, then you have witnessed a "material fatigue failure" in the "delivery system". How did this occur? As the delivery system materials are heated and cooled, over and over, and soiling is present, the material oxidizes. Fire itself is defined as rapid oxidation. As for the material, the heating expands the material, the cooling allows it to shrink back, and by using it over and over, it eventually fails. Ever bend a wire back and forth until it snaps? Touch the tip right after...hot, isn't it? That's friction from moving the molecules back and forth. The breaking is from the fatigue in the metal. Now you understand fatigue.
Next, let's talk about pressure changes. When you are using a pressure cooker, you are using heat to cause water to turn into a gas at a more rapid rate than evaporation. The pressure cooker does not have a compressor, but pressure builds because as water turns from a liquid to a gas, it expands, causing pressure. If you want to try a cool experiment, take an open pot. Inside, use a sharpie to draw a line about halfway up. Now, fill the pot to that level with cold water, and heat it quickly on the stove to just before boiling. Look at the mark inside the pot...it's underwater. Why? Because even though it's not a gas yet, the water is expanding under heat.
Let's talk about pressure from motion. If you put a can of soda on a table, rested, and open it, it makes a small hiss, and it's fine. Shake it first, then open it, and it will spray with considerable pressure. What happened? The motion of the liquid inside the can caused the gas molecules (carbonation) to expand inside the sealed vessel. If left to rest, they will again dissolve back into the liquid. If opened too soon, we all know the result.
Pressure cookers have a safety valve to prevent explosions under pressure. RV LPG tanks have them to prevent tank or delivery system failure from expansion or overfill. They are required on all RV propane tanks by law.
When you are driving down the road, you are shaking the LPG, causing the pressure in the tank to fluctuate.
When you are driving down the highway, during daylight hours, the road temperature in the summer even in the northeast can be as much as 25 degrees Fahrenheit higher than air temperature, with your Rialta propane tank knee high above it for hours. Temperature increases also change the pressures in your propane tank and the delivery system.
FROM THE TEXTBOOK -
"Density of Propane vs Natural Gas
Density of natural gas: There is no one correct starting (sea-level) density of natural gas since natural gas densities vary depending on where the gas was obtained. Gas from the North Sea, Russia, or shale gas will all have different densities, typically in the range of 0.7 to 0.9 kg/m3. The Engineering Toolbox gives us a density of natural gas of 0.7 - 0.9 kg/m3
Density of propane: Propane on the other hand has a density of about 1.882 kg/m3 - almost twice the density of natural gas. These densities are for "normal temperature and pressure" NTP or at STP a slightly different measurement.
Density of air: The density of air is about 1.205 - 1.294 kg/m3
From these three data points you can see that natural gas is lighter than air while propane is heavier (more dense) than air. The density of lighter-than-air gases (natural gas) inside of a closed vertical pipe will be lower at higher heights than at the base of the pipe. "
So, let's sum this up.
POINT 1 - Metal delivery systems fail from fatigue from heat, vibration, soiling and use.
POINT 2 - LPG is heavier than natural gas, and will accumulate around your feet long before your nose
POINT 3 - LPG tanks have safety relief valves because air temp and motion change the pressure.
POINT 4 - The NEWEST Rialta is a 2003. (Sorry 2004 and 2005 owners, but check your chassis number. The 04 and 05 are the Winnebago year, not the VW year, and could have been built anytime between 2003 and 2005. They are all identical year, parts, components and trim. The only change was the decals.). This means that the newest your LPG delivery system could be is 15 years old, with the majority of the system hidden behind panels, under floors, behind appliances. How many 15 year old barbecue grills do you have that are safe to use? Would you turn them on then pull them around your closed garage on a wagon for a few hours? That's what you're doing when you run your LPG appliances while driving.
POINT 5 - With minimal opening, most refrigerators manufactured after 1995 keep an internal temperature of less than 40 degrees for eight hours, on a 100-degree day. There is NO REASON to keep your propane on while driving your Rialta.
POINT 6 - It is a violation of law to enter a fueling station with any open flame lit. This includes any and all pilot lights. Federal Law, folks. You can't even pull in to gas up with those on, without violating federal law.
POINT 7 - Many states, including North Carolina, Vermont, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, California, Georgia and more have made it a violation of State Law to enter ANY tunnel or bridge with your RV propane tank open or operating any appliance.
The number of fires from caused from propane while driving is open to debate, only to a point. Without question, every propane fire was found to be preventable. Every one. Every one ruled to be caused by propane DID involve an open supply...that means the tank was "on". Whether or not the physical motion had anything to do with it is almost never able to be determined, because RV's don't have a "small fire" and go out. They burn, burn fast, burn hot, and destroy virtually everything.
So, debate it if you want. When the NFPA makes a stand that driving with propane on is dangerous, there is no point in debate.
We drive older vehicles. We have aged systems. We don't and can't inspect every joint, flare fitting and valve at every stop before we use a system. We cannot monitor the entire LPG system while we are driving, because nearly 92% of it is concealed and inaccessible while on the road. The manufacturers have stated publicly that their appliances have not been designed to be used while in motion...carefully avoiding making a stand, while establishing plausible deniability.
In the event of even a small accident, or a tire blowout, a deer strike or a moose, you have the potential of a catastrophic fatal event. If you choose to debate on that topic, please, bring it on. I want to hear you tell me how the lives of your family, of all others on the road around you, is worth less than your opinion that is contrary to every fire expert, certain federal and state laws, and the designers in the RV industry. Please...tell me how your "never had an issue" outweighs the experts and the historical evidence. I'm waiting...
As an expert, let me make this broad statement. Driving with propane on is dangerous.
youtube.com
Dangerous to run RV fridge on propane on the road?
RV fire expert Mac McCoy, Mac the Fire Guy, answers a question that pops up all the time in...
Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that
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| Re: Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334337 is a reply to message #334309] |
Sun, 01 July 2018 14:19  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Maybe you're wrong, but you're describing exactly how both of mine (one Norcold, one Dometic) work/worked. Turn them on the night before at home while the coach is plugged in. Then when I leavein the morning ever thing is cold and the system will keep it that way.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334390 is a reply to message #334329] |
Sun, 01 July 2018 21:55 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Larry,
You are without a doubt one of the best mechanics I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. I've seen your GMC up close and it is
immaculate.
I'll bet dollars to doughnuts you've inspected the LPG system and made sure it is safe.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 1:42 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane
Thanks for this!! Been doing it this way since 2005 and did not know it was such a potential danger. So if we have a 3 way
refrigerator, instead we
could run on the 12v or turn on the inverter and run it 120v?
--
Larry
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334391 is a reply to message #334309] |
Sun, 01 July 2018 21:52 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
Ford Australia manufactured and sold a UTE that ran on LPG only.
The Australian Federal Government at one time would contribute $2000.00 towards a person having their car modified to run on LPG.
Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmm?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Hislop
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 8:14 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane
Found this in a FaceBook group I follow. Its a good read and makes you think!
DO NOT RUN PROPANE WHILE DRIVING...EVER - The debate rages on, and there will always be people that state "I've been doing it for
years, and I never had a problem!"
First, I am an expert. I am a 30 year active firefighter, and a New York State Fire Instructor. I have been a medic for nearly 40
years, and have been on thousands of accidents, hundreds of fires, and have not only been a Rialta owner and RV hobbiest for years,
but have also built custom limousine coaches on bus platforms. Further, I also am a NYS Certified and Licensed Inspector for natural
gas, propane and electric appliances, and have been a NYS Certified Instructor on these topics since 2004, and have taught these
subjects in 14 states, Toronto Ontario, and Vancouver B.C. I can honestly say, I am an expert. If there is anyone out there with a
higher level of expertise, training and experience on this subject, please step forward.
Let's put this into perspective. Propane is refined for one purpose...to burn. It is designed to flow through any port or hole, and
even those NOT intended. If you have ever lit up an old, worn propane grill, and had a "whooosh" as it lights up a gas pocket, or
lights through a crack on the pipe, or through a rust hole, then you have witnessed a "material fatigue failure" in the "delivery
system". How did this occur? As the delivery system
materials are heated and cooled, over and over, and soiling is present, the material oxidizes. Fire itself is defined as rapid
oxidation. As for the material, the heating expands the material, the cooling allows it to shrink back, and by using it over and
over, it eventually fails. Ever bend a wire back and forth until it snaps? Touch the tip right after...hot, isn't it? That's
friction from moving the molecules back and forth. The breaking is
from the fatigue in the metal. Now you understand fatigue.
Next, let's talk about pressure changes. When you are using a pressure cooker, you are using heat to cause water to turn into a gas
at a more rapid rate than evaporation. The pressure cooker does not have a compressor, but pressure builds because as water turns
from a liquid to a gas, it expands, causing pressure. If you want to try a cool experiment, take an open pot. Inside, use a sharpie
to draw a line about halfway up. Now, fill the pot to that level with cold water, and heat it quickly on the stove to just before
boiling. Look at the mark inside the pot...it's underwater. Why? Because even though it's not a gas yet, the water is expanding
under heat.
Let's talk about pressure from motion. If you put a can of soda on a table, rested, and open it, it makes a small hiss, and it's
fine. Shake it first, then open it, and it will spray with considerable pressure. What happened? The motion of the liquid inside the
can caused the gas molecules (carbonation) to expand inside the sealed vessel. If left to rest, they will again dissolve back into
the liquid. If opened too soon, we all know the result.
Pressure cookers have a safety valve to prevent explosions under pressure. RV LPG tanks have them to prevent tank or delivery system
failure from expansion or overfill. They are required on all RV propane tanks by law.
When you are driving down the road, you are shaking the LPG, causing the pressure in the tank to fluctuate.
When you are driving down the highway, during daylight hours, the road temperature in the summer even in the northeast can be as
much as 25 degrees Fahrenheit higher than air temperature, with your Rialta propane tank knee high above it for hours. Temperature
increases also change the pressures in your propane tank and the delivery system.
FROM THE TEXTBOOK -
"Density of Propane vs Natural Gas
Density of natural gas: There is no one correct starting (sea-level) density of natural gas since natural gas densities vary
depending on where the gas was obtained. Gas from the North Sea, Russia, or shale gas will all have different densities, typically
in the range of 0.7 to 0.9 kg/m3. The Engineering Toolbox gives us a density of natural gas of 0.7 - 0.9 kg/m3
Density of propane: Propane on the other hand has a density of about 1.882 kg/m3 - almost twice the density of natural gas. These
densities are for "normal temperature and pressure" NTP or at STP a slightly different measurement.
Density of air: The density of air is about 1.205 - 1.294 kg/m3
From these three data points you can see that natural gas is lighter than air while propane is heavier (more dense) than air. The
density of
lighter-than-air gases (natural gas) inside of a closed vertical pipe will be lower at higher heights than at the base of the pipe.
"
So, let's sum this up.
POINT 1 - Metal delivery systems fail from fatigue from heat, vibration, soiling and use.
POINT 2 - LPG is heavier than natural gas, and will accumulate around your feet long before your nose
POINT 3 - LPG tanks have safety relief valves because air temp and motion change the pressure.
POINT 4 - The NEWEST Rialta is a 2003. (Sorry 2004 and 2005 owners, but check your chassis number. The 04 and 05 are the Winnebago
year, not the VW year, and could have been built anytime between 2003 and 2005. They are all identical year, parts, components and
trim. The only change was the
decals.). This means that the newest your LPG delivery system could be is 15 years old, with the majority of the system hidden
behind panels, under floors, behind appliances. How many 15 year old barbecue grills do you have that are safe to use? Would you
turn them on then pull them around your closed garage on a wagon for a few hours? That's what you're doing when you run your LPG
appliances while driving.
POINT 5 - With minimal opening, most refrigerators manufactured after 1995 keep an internal temperature of less than 40 degrees for
eight hours, on a 100-degree day. There is NO REASON to keep your propane on while driving your Rialta.
POINT 6 - It is a violation of law to enter a fueling station with any open flame lit. This includes any and all pilot lights.
Federal Law, folks. You can't even pull in to gas up with those on, without violating federal law.
POINT 7 - Many states, including North Carolina, Vermont, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, California, Georgia and more have made it a
violation of State Law to enter ANY tunnel or bridge with your RV propane tank open or operating any appliance.
The number of fires from caused from propane while driving is open to debate, only to a point. Without question, every propane fire
was found to be preventable. Every one. Every one ruled to be caused by propane DID involve an open supply...that means the tank was
"on". Whether or not the physical motion had anything to do with it is almost never able to be determined, because RV's don't have a
"small fire" and go out. They burn, burn fast, burn hot, and destroy virtually everything.
So, debate it if you want. When the NFPA makes a stand that driving with propane on is dangerous, there is no point in debate.
We drive older vehicles. We have aged systems. We don't and can't inspect every joint, flare fitting and valve at every stop before
we use a system. We cannot monitor the entire LPG system while we are driving, because nearly 92% of it is concealed and
inaccessible while on the road. The manufacturers have stated publicly that their appliances have not been designed to be used while
in motion...carefully avoiding making a stand, while
establishing plausible deniability.
In the event of even a small accident, or a tire blowout, a deer strike or a moose, you have the potential of a catastrophic fatal
event. If you choose to debate on that topic, please, bring it on. I want to hear you tell me how the lives of your family, of all
others on the road around you, is worth less than your opinion that is contrary to every fire expert, certain federal and state
laws, and the designers in the RV industry.
Please...tell me how your "never had an issue" outweighs the experts and the historical evidence. I'm waiting...
As an expert, let me make this broad statement. Driving with propane on is dangerous.youtube.com
Dangerous to run RV fridge on propane on the road?
RV fire expert Mac McCoy, Mac the Fire Guy, answers a question that pops up all the time in...
--
Bruce Hislop
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334418 is a reply to message #334391] |
Mon, 02 July 2018 08:08 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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USAussie wrote on Sun, 01 July 2018 22:52G'day,
Ford Australia manufactured and sold a UTE that ran on LPG only.
The Australian Federal Government at one time would contribute $2000.00 towards a person having their car modified to run on LPG.
Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmm?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
Rob,
Your "Hmmmmmmmmm?" Is understandable, but the cases are very different.
An LPG fueled engine (not talking about an adapted APU here) has a very different set up....
They pull liquid from the tank through an electric valve that will slam shut as soon as the engine stops or some other criteria. So, if something gets strange, the supply is stopped. There are also "crash valves" required in most systems to stop the flow if there is some reason (inversion, High G, heat).
There is no more open flame than exists with any spark ignition engine. Fires with LPG or NG powered vehicles are actually rarer (caution old data) than they where with liquid fuel (gasoline and diesel were not separated) vehicles.
Matt - From my open collection of useless knowledge.
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334421 is a reply to message #334418] |
Mon, 02 July 2018 08:27 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Matt,
Good points re the comparison, guess I was comparing apples to oranges, DOUH!
Mac specifically mentioned metal fatigue causing cracks in the lines, do vehicles powered by LPG or NG have flow sensing devises
that shut of the gas if high flow is sensed?
As far as open flames goes the only place that exists is in the fridge compartment so unless the leak is there I don't see how it
would affect running the fridge while driving.
BTW Mac was not 100% correct when he noted that you couldn't go through tunnels with the LPG on. The only legal route from New
Jersey to New York City with a flammable gas cylinder of any kind is on the upper level of the George Washington Bridge. It is
illegal to drive on the lower level, or through the Holland or Lincoln Tunnels.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Matt Colie
Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 8:09 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane
Rob,
Your "Hmmmmmmmmm?" Is understandable, but the cases are very different.
An LPG fueled engine (not talking about an adapted APU here) has a very different set up....
They pull liquid from the tank through an electric valve that will slam shut as soon as the engine stops or some other criteria. So,
if something gets strange, the supply is stopped. There are also "crash valves" required in most systems to stop the flow if there
is some reason (inversion, High G, heat).
There is no more open flame than exists with any spark ignition engine. Fires with LPG or NG powered vehicles are actually rarer
(caution old data) than they where with liquid fuel (gasoline and diesel were not separated) vehicles.
Matt - From my open collection of useless knowledge.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334447 is a reply to message #334309] |
Mon, 02 July 2018 15:15 |
Handyman
Messages: 229
Registered: April 2016
Location: The Netherlands
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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Good point, Bruce,
Since I have a Kompressor Fridge, in my European MH, no need for Propane during the ride.
But interesting enough, Truma Europe sells the mono- and duo control.
I have it installed from the factory.
A propane pressure regulator with crashsensor.
The mono is for the one bottle of propane we use in Europe, the Duocontrol for the 2 bottle setup, often with the automatic switch over when the first bottle gets empty .... always nice, especially in the middle of the night in wintertime .... LOL
The truma air heater or the also sometimes used ALDE warm water heating in MH s and the 3-way fridges, can/may be used during the ride, it is only allowed here over, as long those device is installed ....
Of course that crash control also works when no appliances are switched on.
It is designed to stop the propane flow, in case of a crash, beginning at about 10 miles an hour.
I still am with you in the fact to not use propane while driving, but thanks to the crash sensors, we don't hear much of such accidents, over here in Europe.
Just wanted to give some info on this interesting item.
Bye, Daniel
Daniel Jacobs, NL-USA 1977 GMC Eleganza II, Rebuild 455 (2019) 3.55 FD. FiTech and (Modified) FCC, Electric Pump, insulated GasTanks, 100A Alternator, APC, McDash, Schräder Valves + extern Fills, Ceramic Film, TPMS, FlexSteel Seats
[Updated on: Mon, 02 July 2018 15:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article from FB from Mac the Fire Guy on Propane [message #334472 is a reply to message #334329] |
Tue, 03 July 2018 07:01 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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If I had a 3-way fridge (I used to in my previous vehicle), I’d run 12V when I’m on the road. 12V works fine to “maintain” cold.
But my GMC has a 2-way fridge, so - no propane, no cold.
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
> On Jul 1, 2018, at 11:42 AM, Larry wrote:
>
> Thanks for this!! Been doing it this way since 2005 and did not know it was such a potential danger. So if we have a 3 way refrigerator, instead we
> could run on the 12v or turn on the inverter and run it 120v?
> --
> Larry
> 78 Royale w/500 Caddy
> Menomonie, WI.
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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