Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel
| [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332790] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 10:17  |
glwgmc
Messages: 1014
Registered: June 2004
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A lot has been discussed about the effects of todays ethanol laced fuels on older vehicles like our carbureted GMCs. EFI certainly helps but is only part of the story. What about more modern vehicles designed in the ethanol fuel era? We have a 2008 Mini Cooper S Clubman that we use as a tow car. It has a very modern BMW turbocharged engine that performs very well indeed pushing a vehicle that only weighs 2600 pounds. But, it has always exhibited a stumble for a few minutes after first starting it. Once warmed up it seems fine. It requires premium fuel.
A local service station here in rural southern Oregon started carrying non-ethanol premium recently. It sells for about 10% more than ethanol premium. I decided to try a tank to see if there was any difference. Filling the tank took about 2/3 of its capacity so had about 1/3 of ethanol fuel left in the tank. Aside from all the potentially placebo effect observations about running better and being faster, etc., there was a dramatic change that is objective, not subjective. The cold start stumble is largely gone. There still is a little bit of hesitation just after being started cold, but no where near the stumble experienced before.
If fuel mileage increases by 10%, which I suspect it will, then it will be a push from a price standpoint. Unfortunately we leave again the middle of this month on a six to eight week junket through the NW and out to Gillette, WY for the FMCA national rally before a round about return. Since we won’t necessarily have access to non-ethanol premium fuel for the tow car everywhere, I won’t really be able to judge any change in fuel consumption over multiple fill ups. Once I can get three or more consecutive fill ups on this non-ethanol premium fuel I will report whether the mileage change makes up for the additional cost or not.
What has been the experience of those of you who live in Canada and can access non-ethanol gasoline most everywhere. Do you find it cost effective to run consistently in your GMC?
Jerry
Jerry & Sharon Work
Kerby, OR
glwork@mac.com
http://jerrywork.com
Now, Prevost Country Coach
Formerly 78 Royale with most everything done to modernize a GMC mechanically and
77/94 Clasco that looked like it just left the Clasco facility. Loved them both.
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Jerry & Sharon Work
78 Royale
Kerby, OR
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332792 is a reply to message #332790] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 10:33  |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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Pure-Gas.org is Your Friend. Mine run fine (both) on pure 87 gas. Both. And on both I have observed your results, qualitatively. Nice to know it ain't placebo.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332793 is a reply to message #332790] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 10:34 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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I'll note, I see the same in the mouse-mobile but to a much lesser degree. It's built for bad gas but to a degree seems to find the Good Stuff advantage when it's there.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332794 is a reply to message #332790] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 10:34 |
Deb
Messages: 349
Registered: October 2016
Location: Logan Lake, BC
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I'm interested in this as well. About to take a cross-country trip (first real trip anywhere), and if there is any mileage benefit to running premium, it gives me that extra nudge to run premium only. A trip from BC to Ontario is looking at over $2500 (Cdn) in fuel so a 10% increase in cost is significant, but not deal breaking. My plan for next fall is to fill it with premium for the winter layover anyway to help with the long-term storage. But have been wondering about using it on a daily basis?
Deb McWade
Logan Lake, BC, CAN
GMC Alumnus
It's Bigger on the Inside!
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332796 is a reply to message #332790] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 10:39 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
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If its still got a carb, it will benefit from non-alcohol though it needn't necessarily be premium unless that's the only option.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332801 is a reply to message #332790] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 11:01 |
shaunone
Messages: 80
Registered: August 2016
Location: Cranbrook, B.C.
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In my experience, ethanol free is worth the extra money. I average 10-15% better fuel mileage per tank, and the coach just runs better. It makes more power, so it runs cooler, and I'm far less likely to experience vapour lock. I would continue buying it even if it worked out to be more expensive in the long run.
Also, after having put on over 13K miles on the latest road trip, and tracking every tank, I feel like I can say that the difference in 'gasoline' varies widely from station to station (especially in the US). I usually use the pure-gas app to try and find e-free, but that wasn't always possible, and some states have very few stations that offer it.
My mileage throughout the US would vary drastically from tank to tank under similar running conditions (anywhere from 7 mpg to 9.5 mpg). As soon as we hit Canada, my mileage remained within 0.5 mpg from tank to tank for the rest of the trip. The only conclusion I can draw is that each refinery must have different standards for 'gas', or some stations are diluting their 'gas'.
1977 Palm Beach, 455, mostly stock and original
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332802 is a reply to message #332790] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 11:06 |
Scott Nutter
Messages: 782
Registered: January 2015
Location: Houston/San Diego
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We've found that most Indian casinos that have RV parks will have a gas station that has ethanol free gas. And the camp sites are very reasonably priced.
Scott.
Scott Nutter
1978 Royale Center Kitchen, Patterson 455, switch pitch tranny, 3.21 final drive, Quad bags, Dave Lenzi super duty mid axle disc brakes, tankless water heater, everything Lenzi. Alex Ferrera installed MSD Atomic EFI
Houston, Texas
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332803 is a reply to message #332794] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 11:07 |
shaunone
Messages: 80
Registered: August 2016
Location: Cranbrook, B.C.
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Deb wrote on Wed, 30 May 2018 10:34I'm interested in this as well. About to take a cross-country trip (first real trip anywhere), and if there is any mileage benefit to running premium, it gives me that extra nudge to run premium only. A trip from BC to Ontario is looking at over $2500 (Cdn) in fuel so a 10% increase in cost is significant, but not deal breaking. My plan for next fall is to fill it with premium for the winter layover anyway to help with the long-term storage. But have been wondering about using it on a daily basis?
We just did this in reverse and our mileage was steady at 9.5ish using Esso 91 (e-free in Canada). You can also run Shell 91, but I think the Esso 91 was a bit better. I would run 87 e-free if a station carried it, but I have yet to see it sold.
Just for reference, our coach was fully loaded, no tow, stock final drive, cruise set @ 60-65.
1977 Palm Beach, 455, mostly stock and original
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332811 is a reply to message #332803] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 16:13 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
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And the ethanol industry has added to our grief by more fuel being politically allowed to be E-15. Only defense is to read the label on the pump.
Of my four modern vehicles, all have definite restrictions against anything higher than E-10. I would prefer non-ethanol gas, but other than boat pumps, it is difficult to find. Since it is being sold as 'boat fuel', it commands much more than a 10% premium.
Iowa corn farmers and ADM love E-15 and E-85.
Tom
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332834 is a reply to message #332816] |
Wed, 30 May 2018 23:12 |
sgltrac
Messages: 2797
Registered: April 2011
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Oh my gosh Rob, that was so insensitive and politically incorrect!
Another reason I love this place.
Sully
Lots of Gmc parts
Bellevue
On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 3:16 PM Rob Mueller wrote:
> So they only scalp you when you go into the casino! :-)
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> Sydney, Australia
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Scott
> Nutter
> Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 11:07 AM
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel
>
> We've found that most Indian casinos that have RV parks will have a gas
> station that has ethanol free gas. And the camp sites are
> very reasonably priced.
> Scott.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Sully
77 Royale basket case.
Future motorhome land speed record holder(bucket list)
Seattle, Wa.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332840 is a reply to message #332790] |
Thu, 31 May 2018 01:11 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
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Here is the problem with your postings about ethanol usage or availability. There is not any one standard for the whole country. In other than EPA non-attainment areas and California, ethanol dilution rules and amounts was left up to the individual states. So in some states the higher octane offerings contained more, not less Ethanol. Ethanol usually adds about 2 octane points when added to gasoline at the 10% level.
In a few states (and Canada?) they mandated that the highest octane fuel be offered as ethanol free. Even within a state what you get may not be the same as listed on the pump. Most of the pumps say "Up to 10% ethanol"
Ethanol mixing has nothing to do with the refining and transportation of US gasoline. Ethanol mixing is done at the distribution point and can change daily depending of the availability of and the state requirement to sell a given amount of ethanol each year.
So good luck figuring it out where you live or travel.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332843 is a reply to message #332834] |
Thu, 31 May 2018 04:27 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Sully et al,
Years ago I watched a segment on 60 Minutes about the Indian Casino in Uncaseville, Connecticut, they interviewed the tribe elders
and asked what they did with the profits from the casino, they noted that it was used to benefit tribe members.
They also interviewed the local residents and overwhelming they complained that it was not fair that the casinos didn't have to pay
taxes.
I had to laugh, the Indians are "conquered" and get relegated to reservations and whenever something of value is discovered on the
reservation they get moved to a new reservation and the "conquerors" complain that THEY are not being treated fairly!
Things that make you go Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Todd Sullivan
Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 11:12 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel
Oh my gosh Rob, that was so insensitive and politically incorrect!
Another reason I love this place.
Sully
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332862 is a reply to message #332849] |
Thu, 31 May 2018 14:18 |
johnd01
Messages: 354
Registered: July 2017
Location: Sacrameot
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So there is very little power from the alcohol. They would use water if it
would still run the engine.
On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:07 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
> Ken is real correct about this.
>
> Following Ken's method, I faithfully logged Eoh content of every
> purchase. It varied more than I might have suspected.
> And a side note: As I usually arranged to fuel when the tank was really
> low (taking on 45 gallons was not uncommon), I was able to pretty
> effectively
> track the changes in fuel rate for each fill.
> What did I learn?
> All I really did was a real world confirmation of what I already knew from
> years of engine lab work some of which was with "gasahol".
> => In an open loop engine, the alcohol behaves much like a filler. The
> fuel rate (inverse of MPG) will increase by almost the exact percentage of
> alcohol in the fuel.
>
> In short, on gasahol (crapahol) we run at a pretty steady 9.2MPG, but on
> real fuel, it will be just about 10MPG.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>
> _______________________________________________
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--
*John Phillips*
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Johnd01
John Phillips
Avion A2600 TZE064V101164
Rancho Cordova, CA (Sacramento)
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| Re: [GMCnet] Another interesting observation on ethanol fuel [message #332863 is a reply to message #332862] |
Thu, 31 May 2018 14:33 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
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The alcohol serves to find a use for all that gmo corn they are growing in
those corporate farms that stretch on for miles in the midwest. The
government subsidized it for many years, but there is pressure in Congress
presently to end the subsidy. There is powerful incentive by the government
to add alcohol to gasoline. If you add 15% alcohol to gasoline, vehicles
get that much worse fuel economy. If you burn more gasoline, you pay more
gasoline tax. Simple as that. Same reason why the government does not
outlaw tobacco sales. All that tax revenue. Same for booze. And legal pot.
Same reason your property value continues to climb. More property tax
revenue.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Thu, May 31, 2018, 12:20 PM John Phillips
wrote:
> So there is very little power from the alcohol. They would use water if it
> would still run the engine.
>
> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 6:07 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
>> Ken is real correct about this.
>>
>> Following Ken's method, I faithfully logged Eoh content of every
>> purchase. It varied more than I might have suspected.
>> And a side note: As I usually arranged to fuel when the tank was really
>> low (taking on 45 gallons was not uncommon), I was able to pretty
>> effectively
>> track the changes in fuel rate for each fill.
>> What did I learn?
>> All I really did was a real world confirmation of what I already knew
> from
>> years of engine lab work some of which was with "gasahol".
>> => In an open loop engine, the alcohol behaves much like a filler. The
>> fuel rate (inverse of MPG) will increase by almost the exact percentage
> of
>> alcohol in the fuel.
>>
>> In short, on gasahol (crapahol) we run at a pretty steady 9.2MPG, but on
>> real fuel, it will be just about 10MPG.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie - '73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
>> Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan
>> OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
>> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
>
> *John Phillips*
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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