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| I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330430] |
Tue, 27 March 2018 22:52  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Well, I am now working on brakes. Everything is badly rusted. Right now I'm working on replacing master cylinder (rusted inside), combination valve (stuck in forward position), calipers (one is rusted inside), and both caliper brake hoses. All of the line nuts are rusted to the lines. I am soaking all of the connection nuts with Kroil daily. I am now 4 days into this and have loosen one nut on the master cylinder so far. So I'll continue soaking and maybe add some heat. I am looking for any other ideas for loosening these from the tubes. I am not wanting to replace steel lines to get this job done.
Any ideas will be appreciated.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330431 is a reply to message #330430] |
Tue, 27 March 2018 23:16  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Ken, pinpoint flame like a chef's torch or a glass blowers torch. I have an
artist's oxy/acetelyne rig that works really well for this. Wire brush the
lines where they intersect the nuts. Heat the nut. Let it cool a bit, then
spray with penetrant. Repeat. Have a CO2 or Halon fire extinguisher close
by. Use a fitting wrench, and carefully alternate between tightening and
loosening the nut, but not enough to twist off the steel lines. Repeat. Be
patient. Broken or stripped nuts are NO FUN. JWID.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 8:53 PM Ken Burton wrote:
> Well, I am now working on brakes. Everything is badly rusted. Right now
> I'm working on replacing master cylinder (rusted inside), combination valve
> (stuck in forward position), calipers (one is rusted inside), and both
> caliper brake hoses. All of the line nuts are rusted to the lines. I am
> soaking all of the connection nuts with Kroil daily. I am now 4 days into
> this and have loosen one nut on the master cylinder so far. So I'll
> continue soaking and maybe add some heat. I am looking for any other
> ideas for loosening these from the tubes. I am not wanting to replace steel
> lines to get this job done.
>
> Any ideas will be appreciated.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330432 is a reply to message #330431] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 00:23 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Are you telling, me that I need something hotter than the propane torch that I am now using?
I have a mapp gas torch but the fine tip flame might be a problem. We have a small acetylene torch at the airport. I'll see what kind of tips are available for it. I have only used it once or twice.
How hot do I need to get it? Do I need to heat it hot enough to get it slightly red? I have a good set of tubing wrenches and plenty of CO2 extinguishers sitting right there.
I'll wire brush all of them with a wire brush on a Dremmel.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330433 is a reply to message #330432] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 01:17 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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No, not red heat. The secret is applying the tip of the flame on the nut,
so that it expands more than the steel lines do. The mapp torch with a
pinpoint tip should work fine. Once the nut wiggles on the line, you should
be able to remove them. Dremel is a good way to polish it, too.
Jim Hupy
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018, 10:24 PM Ken Burton wrote:
> Are you telling, me that I need something hotter than the propane torch
> that I am now using?
>
> I have a mapp gas torch but the fine tip flame might be a problem. We
> have a small acetylene torch at the airport. I'll see what kind of tips are
> available for it. I have only used it once or twice.
>
> How hot do I need to get it? Do I need to heat it hot enough to get it
> slightly red? I have a good set of tubing wrenches and plenty of CO2
> extinguishers sitting right there.
>
> I'll wire brush all of them with a wire brush on a Dremmel.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330434 is a reply to message #330430] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 07:14 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
If you haven't yet gotten those V-jawed ViceGrips recommended by Matt,
now's the time. Believe us, they DO grip MUCH better than even the best
flare nut wrenches. 4LW, 7LW, and 11 LW are the numbers I've found. I
have the 4" & 7"; mostly use the 4" for brake lines.
Ken H.
On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
> Well, I am now working on brakes. Everything is badly rusted. Right now
> I'm working on replacing master cylinder (rusted inside), combination valve
> (stuck in forward position), calipers (one is rusted inside), and both
> caliper brake hoses. All of the line nuts are rusted to the lines. I am
> soaking all of the connection nuts with Kroil daily. I am now 4 days into
> this and have loosen one nut on the master cylinder so far. So I'll
> continue soaking and maybe add some heat. I am looking for any other
> ideas for loosening these from the tubes. I am not wanting to replace steel
> lines to get this job done.
>
> Any ideas will be appreciated.
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330436 is a reply to message #330433] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 08:20 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I have several pair of those special vice grips. Grabbing the nuts is not the problem. Getting the nuts loose so they can spin on the tube is the issue.
Jim thanks for the info. I need to find a torch with a pin point flame. I'll see what I can find. Thanks. I'll start by polishing off as much rust as possible.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330438 is a reply to message #330430] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 08:53 |
dshafer
Messages: 68
Registered: June 2016
Location: SW Ohio
Karma: 3
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With all that rust going on, how close to rusting out do you think the lines are?
Time and frustration along with the possible contamination from old lines vs new iron lines (which you will probably replace sometime anyway) and increased safety... peace of mind.
1977 26 foot 403
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| Re: I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330440 is a reply to message #330438] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 09:58 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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dshafer wrote on Wed, 28 March 2018 08:53With all that rust going on, how close to rusting out do you think the lines are?
Time and frustration along with the possible contamination from old lines vs new iron lines (which you will probably replace sometime anyway) and increased safety... peace of mind.
At this point I'm just trying to get some operation brakes. If there are severely internal rusted lines to the point of needing replacement then we will address that when it is discovered.
I need to move this vehicle right now so I can get access to my backhoe which is parked behind it. I have a collapsed culvert to replace. The coach can not be easily moved without some operational brakes. The front lines and components have had fluid in them so internal rust is probably not a problem. I do have traces of internal rust in one caliper so both are being replaced. Fluid extracted from both calipers looks great except for traces of rust on one of the removed bleeders. Hoses look bad, but are intact. They will be replaced with the calipers when I can get them loose from the steel lines. The combination valve is jammed. So I need to loosen those connections and replace or at least disassemble it. I am not prepared at this point to mass replace lines until I determine their current state. I'll know more after I get it apart.
The rears are a different story that will be tackled after the fronts are operational.
This coach has not moved under it's own power in 19 years. It was parked inside all of that time in a good quality concrete floor unheated pole barn.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330448 is a reply to message #330447] |
Wed, 28 March 2018 20:20 |
TR 1
Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW
Karma: -7
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Senior Member |
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Not to speak for Peter, but I'm guessing he means something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/CRC-05002-Freeze-Off-Super-Penetrant/dp/B000TFTH00/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1522286221&sr=8-1&keywords=crc+freeze+off
I've tried it before... Smells unusually noxious, even compared to other potent car repair chems like Brakeleen...
I've had better luck with heat, but when heat does not work, in the past I've turned to this with some good results...
Mark S. '73 Painted Desert,
Manny 1 Ton Front End,
Howell Injection,
Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes,
Fort Worth, TX
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330473 is a reply to message #330449] |
Thu, 29 March 2018 14:47 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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Thanks guys...can't say I've ever heard of it before !
I do like my trans/acetone 50/50 mix and my
*Acetylene torch. I think, Ken, if you get it red hot and then splash a
generous amount of water on it that it will all come undone!*
*It's what I'd do.*
*Mike in NS*
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 10:21 PM, Jerry Burt wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOzJmBiD9KU
>
> Kingsley Coach wrote on Wed, 28 March 2018 15:54
>> Peter
>>
>> Say what??
>>
>> Mike in NS
>>
>>
>> Virus-free.
>> www.avast.com
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 6:50 PM, Peter Bailey
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ken,
>>> Time to try freeze and release spray
>>> Peter Bailey
>>> from Ozy (Aussie)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Michael Beaton
>> 1977 Kingsley 26-11
>> 1977 Eleganza II 26-3
>> Antigonish, NS
>>
>> Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS
>
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--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
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| Re: [GMCnet] I am looking for a magic bullet [message #330483 is a reply to message #330448] |
Thu, 29 March 2018 21:13 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Peter, I had forgotten all about that stuff.
In a previous life I worked as an electrician in a very large steel mill. The millwright use to have that stuff around for small jobs. On large jobs they used CO2 or Nitrogen. It was strange how the company fire department was continually having to recharge the large fire CO2 extinguishers.
One day the compressor quit on one of our soft drink machines. So the thing was dispensing hot soft drinks in cans. When I stopped by to use the machine there was a large CO2 extinguisher on wheels in front of the machine with instructions on how long to hit a hot dispensed can to properly cool it.
Thanks Peter.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: I am looking for a magic bullet [message #331211 is a reply to message #330440] |
Sun, 22 April 2018 01:29 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Well, I'm back. I started out needing to break 9 brake line connections loose. Now almost 4 weeks later I have 6 of them loose without damaging the lines or the nuts. Each on gets a little harder. Lots of soaking with Kroil or Acetone and ATF.
I initially tried heating them with propane. I switched to acetylene (without oxygen). To date I have loosened and removed the two on the master cylinder and 4 of the 5 on the combination valve.
Today I tried Freeze-off from CRC as suggested here. Nothing. That stuff only gets down to a few degrees below zero F. After several attempts with it, I went back to acetylene and heated the line and nut until the line (not the nut) turned red. Then I shock cooled the line and nut with Freeze Off. I finally got that nut to turn. After turning about 1/8 turn I heated it and shock cooled it again. That line is now loose from the nut. So much for #6.
Tomorrow I'll try for #7 (an even more difficult one). If I do not get it loose, on Monday or Tuesday I am going by the local gas (oxygen, Argon, Acetylene, etc.) place. and get a few pounds of dry ice. Dry Ice maintains a temperature of around -110 F. I will apply it directly to the line and tube and try again. I'm not sure how I will attack the two brake lines at the wheels which are the final 2. I have new hoses to install on them.
All of these problems could have been eliminated if GM had put a little anti-seize on them during assembly 40 years ago.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: I am looking for a magic bullet [message #331215 is a reply to message #330430] |
Sun, 22 April 2018 07:55 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Try this: boil a kettle of water. Use the freeze spray or dry ice on the line. Isolate the back of the nut with tape so when you pour the boiling water on it it hits the nut but not the line. Freeze the line, boil the nut, take a small dead blow hammer and whack the nut around (if you can reach it) and see if it win't come loose. The idea is to get the nut hot - boiling is usually plenty - while freezing and thereby shrinking the line. Couple of whacks to loosen it, or Whatsisname's trick of just a >bit< of tightening then loosen. The only line I've so far been unable to loosen was the upper trans cooler on my 23' when I recored the radiator. Go figure.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: I am looking for a magic bullet [message #331217 is a reply to message #331215] |
Sun, 22 April 2018 08:42 |
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Tom Lins
Messages: 372
Registered: February 2004
Location: St Augustine, FL
Karma: 1
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 22 April 2018 08:55Try this: boil a kettle of water. Use the freeze spray or dry ice on the line. Isolate the back of the nut with tape so when you pour the boiling water on it it hits the nut but not the line. Freeze the line, boil the nut, take a small dead blow hammer and whack the nut around (if you can reach it) and see if it win't come loose. The idea is to get the nut hot - boiling is usually plenty - while freezing and thereby shrinking the line. Couple of whacks to loosen it, or Whatsisname's trick of just a >bit< of tightening then loosen. The only line I've so far been unable to loosen was the upper trans cooler on my 23' when I recored the radiator. Go figure.
--johnny
Johnny
if remember correctly from a physics class when you heat a donut shaped object (the nut) the inside diameter actually gets smaller, it is a classic demo of a non-intuitive situation. The donut shape expands in both directions inward and outward as it is heated. If there was a way to chill just one of the pieces without chilling the other like putting the dry ice on the line a foot away from the nut. Just a thought.
I got lucky, several applications of PB Blaster and jerking the wrench back and forth got the lines loose from the hoses. Amen to anti-seize.
Tom Lins
St Augustine, FL
77 GM Rear Twin, Dry Bath, 455, Aluminum Radiator Quad-Bag Suspension Solar Panel
Manuals on DVD
YOUTUBE Channel: GMC Dealer Training Tapes
http://www.bdub.net/tomlins/
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| Re: I am looking for a magic bullet [message #331221 is a reply to message #331217] |
Sun, 22 April 2018 10:05 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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The major problem has been getting the nut loose from what it is screwed into. Five out of the nine fittings are screwed into in the combination valve. Once I finally get one to move a little bit back and forth, I can work some penetrating oil into the threads and move it even more. Then second step is to loosen the nut from the tube. I heat the nut and tube very hot and try to get penetrating oil in between the tube and the nut by shock cooling it. Usually with Kroil or Acetone/ATF.
So it is a 2 step process. The most difficult part is initially getting the nut to move. As I stated before each one is a little more difficult than the previous ones. The easier ones are done and I learn a little from each one. I'm going back today and try to get he last one on the combination valve loose. I unintentionally burned up the switch on the combination valve several weeks ago. Now I needed the remains out of the way to allow more room for the vice grips on adjacent fittings. Yesterday, I got the switch loose and out the way with heat, Kroil, a metric socket, and a 3/8 impact wrench. I could not get a good inch size socket to fit.
It has been fun. Wish me luck today. Monday or Tuesday will be dry ice day.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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