Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » The last 150 feet
The last 150 feet [message #329667] |
Mon, 05 March 2018 13:57 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hello all,
After a break of six months or so, I am back and preparing to work on our gmc again since the snow will be gone soon.
Last fall, I had a new timing chain installed on my coach. Thanks to Bruce Hart's efforts and instruction, we were able to diagnose the problem and teach me something at the same time. Since I am a coach-net member, I was able to get them to tow the vehicle 80 miles to the nearest "GMC" repair facility. Once the chain was replaced I was able to drive it back to my place. Well, nearly back to my place. I live in the foothills of Colorado at 8400 feet elevation. My coach died one mile from my place from what I assume was vapor lock. I let it sit and cool for a couple hours then was able to continue up the hill to my driveway where I couldn't get it to go another foot. The bottom of my driveway is at 8272 feet while my house and shop are 800 feet away at 8426 feet....Ugh. It has been sitting there over the winter.
My plan is to install an EFI unit this spring in an effort to allow us to go over mountain passes that are a good bit higher than 8400 feet. I've been told that the EFI should enable us to do that. Thoughts?
Also, when I got to my driveway, the engine was running but I was barely moving. How can I tell if the issue is engine related or transmission related? What I mean is that I don't know how to tell if the engine just wasn't getting enough O2 to drive the vehicle, or if the transmission wasn't up to the task.
As usual, thanks in advance, I always learn something from you all, so I am ready to be taught!
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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Re: The last 150 feet [message #329676 is a reply to message #329667] |
Mon, 05 March 2018 18:23 |
77Royale
Messages: 461 Registered: June 2014 Location: Mid Michigan
Karma: 6
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Im by no means an expert, but I would start logically. When the timing chain was replaced, did you or someone verify that the timing is correct? With a timing light? If you verified that the timing is correct, then move on.
Does the engine currently start and run? If it does, can you let it idle for as long as you care to at the current elevation. When its running can you rev it up a bit or hold your foot on the gas a bit and kick the RPMs up to say 1200 or so. Does it bog down, or want to die. Is the choke functioning properly on the carb, it will take a bit of time to warm up and fully open.
If you can answer yes to all of those questions, than at least at this point and its current elevation, you can rule out the engine and its needs (Timing, Fuel, Spark) somewhat as being the issue. If currently the engine is sputtering and dying and wont rev up, or hold an idle, then you need to start looking at that first. Prior to the transmission.
Again, Start with the easy stuff if the engine is not running properly. Do you have enough gas in both tanks, how old is the gas, Are one or more of the fuel filters old/clogged/gummed up preventing proper fuel flow to the carb. As for the carb, has it ever been rebuilt? Does it need to be rebuilt, if you can step on the gas with a bone cold engine and the air cleaner off, can you see a few squirts of gas being sprayed into the carb? If not, that may be a fuel delivery issue (Gummed up filters/carb/fuel lines).
Provided the engine checks out move on.
If the coach is on LEVEL ground. Warm the engine up to normal temp, shut it off and then check the ATF level. Are you low? If low add some and see if that doesn't make a difference in shifting and getting to coach to move under its own power. Some fluid meaning enough to bring it up on the dipstick a bit. Like a pint or less at a time.
Can you tell or do you know where its been parked if anything like ATF is leaking out of it from the pan area. This would give you a better idea if a little or a lot has leaked out over the winter.
Re reading your post, what type of incline are you trying to go up? and how much gas did you have in the tanks. Is is possible that what fuel you had was being pushed toward the rear of the tank you were on, and that is what caused the stall/lack of power.
Again, Start with all the easy stuff, and perhaps the easiest is to get a gas can and fresh gas and top off the tanks as best you can. Without knowing the incline, its possible if you had say a 1/4 tank in each of the tanks that you were sucking air.
Just some thoughts anyway.
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan
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Re: The last 150 feet [message #329680 is a reply to message #329678] |
Mon, 05 March 2018 19:44 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005 Registered: August 2004 Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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2nd vote for carb filter. Coach would not go up any incline at speed. Seed dropped off until back to level. Someone suggested carb fuel filter. Changed it, and everything went back to normal. I had filled with non-eth gas, may have loosened some crud.
Tom
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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Re: The last 150 feet [message #329687 is a reply to message #329676] |
Mon, 05 March 2018 22:19 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Thanks for the response! I will fire it up this weekend and run through your list. When I finally pulled into the parking spot the engine wasn't sputtering, but it just didn't have any power. It would rev, but not go anywhere which is why I was concerned about the tranny.
I didn't check the timing since the GMC truck repair shop said it was correct. The engine ran perfectly on the 80 mile trip back so it never occurred to me that the timing might be off. I will check it.
The I checked the ATF fluid when I parked it as I was afraid that it might have been low and that was causing the trouble. It was ok.
Thanks for the ideas! I am more of a cabinetmaker/woodworker than an engine guy, so I appreciate the help.
Bob
77Royale wrote on Mon, 05 March 2018 17:23Im by no means an expert, but I would start logically. When the timing chain was replaced, did you or someone verify that the timing is correct? With a timing light? If you verified that the timing is correct, then move on.
Does the engine currently start and run? If it does, can you let it idle for as long as you care to at the current elevation. When its running can you rev it up a bit or hold your foot on the gas a bit and kick the RPMs up to say 1200 or so. Does it bog down, or want to die. Is the choke functioning properly on the carb, it will take a bit of time to warm up and fully open.
If you can answer yes to all of those questions, than at least at this point and its current elevation, you can rule out the engine and its needs (Timing, Fuel, Spark) somewhat as being the issue. If currently the engine is sputtering and dying and wont rev up, or hold an idle, then you need to start looking at that first. Prior to the transmission.
Again, Start with the easy stuff if the engine is not running properly. Do you have enough gas in both tanks, how old is the gas, Are one or more of the fuel filters old/clogged/gummed up preventing proper fuel flow to the carb. As for the carb, has it ever been rebuilt? Does it need to be rebuilt, if you can step on the gas with a bone cold engine and the air cleaner off, can you see a few squirts of gas being sprayed into the carb? If not, that may be a fuel delivery issue (Gummed up filters/carb/fuel lines).
Provided the engine checks out move on.
If the coach is on LEVEL ground. Warm the engine up to normal temp, shut it off and then check the ATF level. Are you low? If low add some and see if that doesn't make a difference in shifting and getting to coach to move under its own power. Some fluid meaning enough to bring it up on the dipstick a bit. Like a pint or less at a time.
Can you tell or do you know where its been parked if anything like ATF is leaking out of it from the pan area. This would give you a better idea if a little or a lot has leaked out over the winter.
Re reading your post, what type of incline are you trying to go up? and how much gas did you have in the tanks. Is is possible that what fuel you had was being pushed toward the rear of the tank you were on, and that is what caused the stall/lack of power.
Again, Start with all the easy stuff, and perhaps the easiest is to get a gas can and fresh gas and top off the tanks as best you can. Without knowing the incline, its possible if you had say a 1/4 tank in each of the tanks that you were sucking air.
Just some thoughts anyway.
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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Re: [GMCnet] The last 150 feet [message #329688 is a reply to message #329682] |
Mon, 05 March 2018 22:15 |
jimk
Messages: 6734 Registered: July 2006 Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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If you did not line up the cam to the crank, the timing light does not show
the error.
It is very easy to miss the tooth ad be off.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Hart wrote:
> Bob,
> Been meaning to contact you. Glad to know that you did get your coach home
> at least. Hope you get to use it this year. 8) 8)
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Re: The last 150 feet [message #329689 is a reply to message #329680] |
Mon, 05 March 2018 22:20 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
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tphipps wrote on Mon, 05 March 2018 18:442nd vote for carb filter. Coach would not go up any incline at speed. Seed dropped off until back to level. Someone suggested carb fuel filter. Changed it, and everything went back to normal. I had filled with non-eth gas, may have loosened some crud.
Tom
In my efforts to diagnose the timing chain issue, I replaced the carb filter and hose from JimK so that shouldn't be an issue.
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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Re: [GMCnet] The last 150 feet [message #329691 is a reply to message #329688] |
Mon, 05 March 2018 22:24 |
thorndike
Messages: 406 Registered: January 2011 Location: Conifer, Colorado
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Jim, thanks for the response! I REALLY hope they didn't install the chain wrong. If they did, I hope there is enough room to move the distributor to make up for it.
Hey, why don't you open a shop up here in Denver? I know a number of us would really appreciate it! ; )
Bob
jimk wrote on Mon, 05 March 2018 21:15If you did not line up the cam to the crank, the timing light does not show
the error.
It is very easy to miss the tooth ad be off.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Hart wrote:
> Bob,
> Been meaning to contact you. Glad to know that you did get your coach home
> at least. Hope you get to use it this year.
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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Re: [GMCnet] The last 150 feet [message #329695 is a reply to message #329692] |
Tue, 06 March 2018 05:52 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501 Registered: October 2011 Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Check the transmission governor. It is on the drivers side next to the
final drive and transmission. It has a round cap with a wire clip to keep
it in place.
If the plastic gear is stripped you ain't going anywhere. It should pull
out of the tranny with little to moderate pressure.
http://www.appliedgmc.com/level.itml/icOid/482
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 10:24 PM, Jerry Burt wrote:
> thorndike wrote on Mon, 05 March 2018 20:19
>> Snip snip...
>>
>> The I checked the ATF fluid when I parked it as I was afraid that it
> might have been low and that was causing the trouble. It was ok.
>>
>> Thanks for the ideas! I am more of a cabinetmaker/woodworker than an
> engine guy, so I appreciate the help.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>> 77Royale wrote on Mon, 05 March 2018 17:23
>>> Snip snip...
>>>
>>> If the coach is on LEVEL ground. Warm the engine up to normal temp,
> shut it off and then check the ATF level. Are you low? If low add some
>>> and see if that doesn't make a difference in shifting and getting to
> coach to move under its own power. Some fluid meaning enough to bring it up
>>> on the dipstick a bit. Like a pint or less at a time.
>
>
> If your trans shows the proper level with the engine off, you are low on
> fluid. When you check it with engine off the fluid drains back into the pan
> and will give you a false reading.
> Your trans fluid needs to be checked with the trans warmed up and the
> engine running while in Park. Make sure it is warmed up and run the trans
> thru
> the gears then check the fluid level.
>
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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Re: The last 150 feet [message #329699 is a reply to message #329667] |
Tue, 06 March 2018 07:36 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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One of us is missing something here - if the timing chain isn't correctly fitted, you could correct the spark timing by moving the distributor. The valve timing (cam) will still be wrong will it not?
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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Re: [GMCnet] The last 150 feet [message #329703 is a reply to message #329691] |
Tue, 06 March 2018 08:09 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726 Registered: March 2004 Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Bob,
I'm afraid you're confusing the two different "timings" that are involved:
1. Cam Timing determines when the intake and exhaust valves open and close
by establishing their relationship to the crankshaft (and connected
pistons). It is set by the position of the timing chain on the sprockets
attached to the cam- and crank-shafts. It can only be changed by removing
everything from the front of the engine (which can remain in place) and
changing that chain-sprocket relationship.
2. Ignition Timing determines when the electrical spark is discharged in
the combustion chamber to ignite the air-fuel mixture. It IS set by the
camshaft, since the distributor is driven directly from that device. BUT,
it can be varied by rotating the distributor body, thus changing the exact
timing of the spark in relation to piston location. But that variation
does NOT affect Cam Timing one iota.
Maybe still not clear without seeing an animation of 4-stroke cycle
operation:http://www.animatedengines.com/otto.html
HTH,
Ken H.
On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 11:24 PM, Robert Peesel wrote:
> Jim, thanks for the response! I REALLY hope they didn't install the chain
> wrong. If they did, I hope there is enough room to move the distributor to
> make up for it.
>
> Hey, why don't you open a shop up here in Denver? I know a number of us
> would really appreciate it! ; )
>
>
> Bob
>
>
> jimk wrote on Mon, 05 March 2018 21:15
>> If you did not line up the cam to the crank, the timing light does not
> show
>> the error.
>> It is very easy to miss the tooth ad be off.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 5, 2018 at 6:29 PM, Bruce Hart wrote:
>>
>>> Bob,
>>> Been meaning to contact you. Glad to know that you did get your coach
> home
>>> at least. Hope you get to use it this year. 8) 8)
>>> --
>>> Bruce Hart
>>> 1976 Palm Beach
>>> Milliken, Co
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Kanomata
>> Applied/GMC, Newark,CA
>> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
>> http://www.appliedgmc.com
>> 1-800-752-7502
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> Robert Peesel
>
> 1976 Royale 26'
>
> Side Dry Bath
>
> Conifer, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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Re: The last 150 feet [message #329705 is a reply to message #329692] |
Tue, 06 March 2018 08:25 |
77Royale
Messages: 461 Registered: June 2014 Location: Mid Michigan
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Should have been more clear on the ATF level. Once the coach is warm, shut it down and check the ATF immediately. Ive tried checking with the engine running and the fan wants to blow the drips from the stick all over the hot manifold.
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan
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Re: The last 150 feet [message #329719 is a reply to message #329699] |
Tue, 06 March 2018 11:14 |
roy1
Messages: 2126 Registered: July 2004 Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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If you think the chain is a tooth off the only fix is to pull the belts and pulleys from the engine .lower the front of the oil pan 1/4" or so check the alignment dots on the gears after you remove the front cover. I had a cloys chain set that was marked wrong and had to go thru this nightmare . I also had to buy a small degree wheel from summit racing and a dial indicator from harbor freight with a magnetic base to check the actual cam degrees because the timing dots on the cam gear were marked wrong. If you have to go this far you would also need to remove the driver side valve cover and intake valve rocker arm to put the dial indicator on the pushrod. No need to remove the intake manifold as most recommend because the dial indicator won't have enough pressure to move the lifter plunger with the rocker removed.Then follow cam mfg instructions for proper opening and closing of intake valve versus crank shaft degrees . The good thing is it can be done in the Motorhome with the radiator intact but takes 2 people. Been there done that hope you don't have to go thru the trouble but the motor doesn't have to be pulled to do it .
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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Re: [GMCnet] The last 150 feet [message #329741 is a reply to message #329719] |
Tue, 06 March 2018 16:42 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501 Registered: October 2011 Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Trouble shooting guide to the 425 transmission
http://www.bdub.net/manuals/THM_425_Trouble_Shooting.pdf
On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 10:14 AM, roy keen wrote:
> If you think the chain is a tooth off the only fix is to pull the belts
> and pulleys from the engine .lower the front of the oil pan 1/4" or so
> check
> the alignment dots on the gears after you remove the front cover. I had a
> cloys chain set that was marked wrong and had to go thru this nightmare . I
> also had to buy a small degree wheel from summit racing and a dial
> indicator from harbor freight with a magnetic base to check the actual cam
> degrees
> because the timing dots on the cam gear were marked wrong. If you have to
> go this far you would also need to remove the driver side valve cover and
> intake valve rocker arm to put the dial indicator on the pushrod. No need
> to remove the intake manifold as most recommend because the dial indicator
> won't have enough pressure to move the lifter plunger with the rocker
> removed.Then follow cam mfg instructions for proper opening and closing of
> intake valve versus crank shaft degrees . The good thing is it can be done
> in the Motorhome with the radiator intact but takes 2 people. Been there
> done that hope you don't have to go thru the trouble but the motor doesn't
> have to be pulled to do it .
>
> --
> Roy Keen
> Minden,NV
> 76 X Glenbrook
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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Re: [GMCnet] The last 150 feet [message #329742 is a reply to message #329741] |
Tue, 06 March 2018 16:58 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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On the subject of the timing of the Camshaft to the Crank, vs timing the
ignition to the crank, there is always some confusion. As the distributor
is gear driven off of the camshaft, it is easily possible to have the
distributor timing correct, but the cam timing not. Believe me when I say
that there are more cams out of time, than are correct. Especially on high
mileage engines.
I plan on giving a tech presentation on cam timing, etc. at the
upcoming Tucson rally. Don't have an exact date and time yet.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Mar 6, 2018 2:43 PM, "Bruce Hart" wrote:
> Trouble shooting guide to the 425 transmission
>
> http://www.bdub.net/manuals/THM_425_Trouble_Shooting.pdf
>
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 10:14 AM, roy keen wrote:
>
>> If you think the chain is a tooth off the only fix is to pull the belts
>> and pulleys from the engine .lower the front of the oil pan 1/4" or so
>> check
>> the alignment dots on the gears after you remove the front cover. I had a
>> cloys chain set that was marked wrong and had to go thru this nightmare
> . I
>> also had to buy a small degree wheel from summit racing and a dial
>> indicator from harbor freight with a magnetic base to check the actual
> cam
>> degrees
>> because the timing dots on the cam gear were marked wrong. If you have to
>> go this far you would also need to remove the driver side valve cover and
>> intake valve rocker arm to put the dial indicator on the pushrod. No need
>> to remove the intake manifold as most recommend because the dial
> indicator
>> won't have enough pressure to move the lifter plunger with the rocker
>> removed.Then follow cam mfg instructions for proper opening and closing
> of
>> intake valve versus crank shaft degrees . The good thing is it can be
> done
>> in the Motorhome with the radiator intact but takes 2 people. Been there
>> done that hope you don't have to go thru the trouble but the motor
> doesn't
>> have to be pulled to do it .
>>
>> --
>> Roy Keen
>> Minden,NV
>> 76 X Glenbrook
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
> GMC=Got More Class
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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