Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » starting the engine
| starting the engine [message #321702] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 13:55  |
kstockwell
Messages: 367
Registered: May 2016
Location: Putney VT
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I'm over a year in, 2000 miles and feeling pretty good. I've got a grease gun, I've used it, I've checked all fluids (not the differential yet), and changed the oil.
I still struggle with starting the rig. After it's been running and sits for even a handful of hours it starts up. If it's stilling longer, I'm still not sure what to do.
What I've been doing
put the key to one click below start and hold the gas down, slowly count to 20
let my foot off the gas and keep it off
turn the key and let it crank.
What I think that does is 1 set the choke, 2 turn on the fuel pump to move fuel to the carb. Is the second part right?
How long do I let it crank before pausing and starting over? How long should it take? Outside people tell me it smells like gas (i'm flooding it), but why can't I smell that inside, i'm right over the engine?
Is letting it crank 30 seconds OK?
When it does start it often stalls right off, I crank again and it starts again quickly and I give it gas and rev it to keep it from stalling.
Am I doing it wrong? On my list is change the small fuel filter in the carb, haven't done that yet. Could there be a problem or am I just doing it wrong? I do notice more energetic starter motor noises if I hold in the battery link switch to the coach batteries but it doesn't make it start sooner
thanks
kelly
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
[Updated on: Sun, 06 August 2017 13:57] Report message to a moderator |
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: starting the engine [message #321707 is a reply to message #321706] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 14:26  |
kstockwell
Messages: 367
Registered: May 2016
Location: Putney VT
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I am pretty sure I do, and the PO replaced it just before I got it.
He mentioned putting in a new fuel pump for me hoping it would stop any vapor lock issues. As far as I can tell I've not had that.
Is there an easy way for me to tell?
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
|
|
|
|
| Re: starting the engine [message #321708 is a reply to message #321707] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 14:49 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kelly,
If you have an electric fuel pump, you should be able to hear it come on when you turn the ignition key on (to the run position). If you can't hear anything from the driver's seat, get out and walk around to the left (driver's) side of the coach, lean over and listen for a pulsating sound or a motor whine.
It also sounds like your choke is either non existent, or not adjusted correctly. With fuel in the carburetor (why you turn the ignition on for a short period to let the electric pump prime the carb.), you should be able to 'set' the choke by pressing the gas pedal to the floor once or twice, then letting off the gas pedal completely. IF the choke is functioning properly, the engine should start up after cranking for a few seconds, or running through a few strokes.
You can check this by opening your engine hatch, removing the air cleaner (or at least the top) so you can see the choke (the butterfly valve on the primaries toward the front of the engine). If you don't feel comfortable adjusting the choke, just about any old school mechanic, who is used to working on carbureted vehicles, can do it for you in a matter of minutes, IF all the linkages are in tact.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321709 is a reply to message #321707] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 14:51 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Kelly, pretty sure that your choke is not set properly. You could turn the
key on and listen for an electric fuel pump to run. That would fill the
carburetor float bowl with fuel if an electric pump were present. If no
pump, it won't accomplish much, EXCEPT WHEN YOU HAVE AN ELECTRIC CHOKE PULL
OFF. If you have an electric choke pull off, and you turn the ignition on,
and the choke is wired so it comes on with the key, it will open the choke
prematurely.
Assuming that you DON'T HAVE an electric fuel pump, and that your
electric choke is wired from the alternator so that it does not open
prematurely, the starting process should go something like the following.
Insert key into ignition.
Press down slightly on the throttle ONE TIME ONLY. This will set the
choke.
With your foot off the throttle, turn the key to start. Engine should
crank over and start and run on fast idle without stalling. It should start
within 10 - 15 seconds of cranking.
IF NO START, something is not correct.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Aug 6, 2017 12:27 PM, "kelly stockwell" wrote:
> I am pretty sure I do, and the PO replaced it just before I got it.
>
> He mentioned putting in a new fuel pump for me hoping it would stop any
> vapor lock issues. As far as I can tell I've not had that.
>
> Is there an easy way for me to tell?
> --
> 1978 Kingsley
> Putney VT
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321722 is a reply to message #321709] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 20:16 |
kstockwell
Messages: 367
Registered: May 2016
Location: Putney VT
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks all!
I wonder if my choke has changed, I swear last year when I read about pushing the pedal to the floor before starting (and not touching it while cranking) it started perfectly for awhile.
I will check the choke (opening the hatch etc). Heading to San Diego for work tomorrow, but home over the weekend to check these things out. It does start like a champ when warm.
Also, I'm not sure I hear a fuel pump go on. another thing I'll check on. And, i'll finally get to that fuel filter.
-kelly
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321723 is a reply to message #321722] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 20:25 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If the coach sitss for awhile, engine heat MAY cause fuel in the carb float bowl to evaporate. If that is the case here, I stab the accel pedal several time to force feed some fuel into the carb throat with the accelerator pump. THEN push pedal to floor SLOWLY to set the choke's fast idle setting and MAYBE this will solve your problem.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
________________________________________
From: Gmclist [gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] on behalf of kelly stockwell [snowsto@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 20:16
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine
Thanks all!
I wonder if my choke has changed, I swear last year when I read about pushing the pedal to the floor before starting (and not touching it while
cranking) it started perfectly for awhile.
I will check the choke (opening the hatch etc). Heading to San Diego for work tomorrow, but home over the weekend to check these things out. It does
start like a champ when warm.
Also, I'm not sure I hear a fuel pump go on. another thing I'll check on. And, i'll finally get to that fuel filter.
-kelly
--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321725 is a reply to message #321723] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 20:38 |
kstockwell
Messages: 367
Registered: May 2016
Location: Putney VT
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thank you for the suggestion. when you say engine heat, do you mean from cranking the starter? When it's warm it starts perfectly; just trying to make sure I understand.
When I first got the coach I constantly flooded it- like a newb
-kelly
[quote title=k2gkk wrote on Sun, 06 August 2017 21:25]If the coach sitss for awhile, engine heat MAY cause fuel in the carb float bowl to evaporate. If that is the case here, I stab the accel pedal several time to force feed some fuel into the carb throat with the accelerator pump. THEN push pedal to floor SLOWLY to set the choke's fast idle setting and MAYBE this will solve your problem.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
________________________________________
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321733 is a reply to message #321725] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 22:24 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The procedure I suggested is for COLD start. However, heat from the running or warm engine MAY cause fuel to evaporate from carb AFTER engine is shut down which COULD cause your later hard start from cold.
Good luck!
Mac in OKC
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of kelly stockwell
Sent: Sunday, August 6, 2017 20:39
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine
Thank you for the suggestion. when you say engine heat, do you mean from cranking the starter? When it's warm it starts perfectly; just trying to
make sure I understand.
When I first got the coach I constantly flooded it- like a newb
-kelly
[quote title=k2gkk wrote on Sun, 06 August 2017 21:25]If the coach sits for awhile, engine heat MAY cause fuel in the carb float bowl to evaporate.
If that is the case here, I stab the accel pedal several time to force feed some fuel into the carb throat with the accelerator pump. THEN push pedal
to floor SLOWLY to set the choke's fast idle setting and MAYBE this will solve your problem.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~~ k2gkk @ hotmail dot com ~~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ex-Palm Beach, 76 ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*
________________________________________
--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321735 is a reply to message #321733] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 22:57 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The cold start procedure is always the same: turn key to Run, press the
pedal once to set the automatic choke, then turn key to Start with foot off
the pedal.
If the carb is dry (from boiling out after the last shutdown, as D.C.
describes), and the engine uses a mechanical pump, one must crank the
engine long enough to pump fuel into the carburetor.
If the carb is dry and the engine uses an electric pump, the carb bowl will
start to fill when the key was first moved to Run.
If the carb has fuel, the engine will start, no matter what kind of pump it
uses, assuming the choke works and is set properly.
That can be tested. With the engine cold and the air filter housing
removed, press the gas pedal once. The choke plates should close and stay
closed, and the high-idle cam (between the choke stove and the carb body,
on the starboard side of the carb) should position itself to the high lobe.
If it doesn't, loosen the screws on the coke stove (which hold in the
Bakelite part) and rotate it until it just sets the high idle during that
one press. (You can reset the automatic choke to test it again by pushing
the high-idle cam to the low lobe while the gas pedal is slightly
depressed, using a small screwdriver.)
If the engine is hot enough that it won't engage the choke, start by
holding the gas pedal halfway down and turning the key to Start.
Rick "easier to adjust than it sounds" Denney
On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 11:25 PM D C _Mac_ Macdonald
wrote:
> The procedure I suggested is for COLD start. However, heat from the
> running or warm engine MAY cause fuel to evaporate from carb AFTER engine
> is shut down which COULD cause your later hard start from cold.
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: starting the engine [message #321736 is a reply to message #321702] |
Sun, 06 August 2017 23:15 |
mrgmc3
Messages: 210
Registered: September 2013
Location: W Washington
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
For cold start problems you can check 2 main issues relatively easily with the hatch open and air cleaner lid removed and the engine OFF.;
1) choke operation - before you touch anything else, while the engine is still cold, simply press the gas pedal one time all the way to the floor. The choke plate should fully close. If the choke plate is even partially open you have some linkage adjusting to do. If it does not close fully it will be very hard to start COLD (engine is at ambient temp).
2) check for fuel in the float bowl. You can do this by pressing the gas pedal and looking down the primary bores of the carburetor, but NOT while cranking! Just with the engine off you should see two small streams spray as you move the pedal - assuming your accelerator pump works properly. If there is no "pump shot" either the bowl is empty, the accelerator pump is bad or both. The fuel can "go away" from the float bowl for two reasons; a) the engine was very hot last time you shut it down or it's been several days - in either case the contents of the float bowl evaporated. b) the well plugs on the underside of the float bowl leak and the contents drip into your intake manifold (can be fixed with epoxy). In either case you must crank for several seconds to fill the bowl back up. Running the electric pump for 5 -10 seconds before cranking will help wth this.
Finally I would not recommend cranking the engine for more than 10 seconds at time with a 20 second wait before recranking. Cranking longer will overheat the starter and shorten its life.
Chris Geils - Twin Cities / W Wa
1978 26' Kingsley w/ very few mods; PD9040, aux trans cooler, one repaint in stock colors, R134a, Al rad, Alcoas, 54k mi
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321738 is a reply to message #321702] |
Mon, 07 August 2017 01:14 |
 |
ljdavick
Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Karma: -3
|
Senior Member |
|
|
This won’t be any help - but I haven’t posted in a long time and I feel like tossing in 2-bits.
One of the first things I had Jim K’s guys install was an electric fuel pump. Turn the key and I could hear that woodpecker come to life. I was going to mount some rubber isolators on the frame so I wouldn’t have to listen to it until one day, when the coach didn’t start, I realized the woodpecker wasn’t home! I shinnied under the frame and found a loose connection. Peck-peck-peck I was running again.
I’ve never made friends with a carburetor, so I finally decided to install the Howell EFI with EBL and electronic distributor control. Over the past 2 1/2 years I haven’t given the motorhome much love, but when I go to start it up and give a run, it starts on the 3 revolution of the engine. Every time.
Oh - also the engine never does that embarrassing run-on after the switch is off, and there’s no such thing as vapor lock, so far.
So the take-away for me was to update to ’90’s technology to make up for my poor shade-tree mechanical skills.
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Distributor
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
|
|
|
|
| Re: starting the engine [message #321739 is a reply to message #321702] |
Mon, 07 August 2017 04:24 |
Chris Tyler
Messages: 458
Registered: September 2013
Location: Odessa FL
Karma: 7
|
Senior Member |
|
|
I kinda think of the old school carbs as an anti theft device- people who came up with fuel injection and electronics have no idea thow to finesse a carbed vehicle to start when its balky. In a similar fashion, having a manual trans or especially a 3 on the tree? Few know how to drive them anymore.
Might want to chaeck if you have the lectric pump wired to an oil pressure switch. If so, it wont come on unles the engine is cranked enough to get to ~5-10#
Its handy to have an over ride switch on the run circuit- lets you prime the bowl after sitting
Qjets are notorious for leaking down the fuel bowls via the press in plugs at the bottom.
76 Glenbrook
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321740 is a reply to message #321739] |
Mon, 07 August 2017 06:13 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If the PO used an oil safety switch, turning on the key will not energize
the electric fuel pump unless a priming circuit has been installed.
On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:24 AM, Chris Tyler
wrote:
> I kinda think of the old school carbs as an anti theft device- people who
> came up with fuel injection and electronics have no idea thow to finesse a
> carbed vehicle to start when its balky. In a similar fashion, having a
> manual trans or especially a 3 on the tree? Few know how to drive them
> anymore.
>
> Might want to chaeck if you have the lectric pump wired to an oil
> pressure switch. If so, it wont come on unles the engine is cranked enough
> to get
> to ~5-10#
> Its handy to have an over ride switch on the run circuit- lets you prime
> the bowl after sitting
> Qjets are notorious for leaking down the fuel bowls via the press in plugs
> at the bottom.
> --
> 76 Glenbrook
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #321745 is a reply to message #321740] |
Mon, 07 August 2017 07:15 |
kstockwell
Messages: 367
Registered: May 2016
Location: Putney VT
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks again!
I'm sorry I won't be able to report back my results until Saturday... but I've got an excellent idea of what to look for
cheers
kelly
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
|
|
|
|
| Re: starting the engine [message #321752 is a reply to message #321702] |
Mon, 07 August 2017 08:56 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
|
Senior Member |
|
|
1) If it worked properly last year but not now, it could be gum on the linkages moving parts and fast idle pivot. I like WD-40 for this as it cleans and disolves and leaves a touch of light lube. Manuals say "do not lubricate" as they don't want the lubricant itself to gum, but rebuilders recommend WD-40 to clean and preserve the finish.
2) if it starts then falters after a few seconds then the choke vac pull off needs adjustment, replacement, or the 1" vac hose feeding it replaced. When set right it should transition almost like EFI. This is a very fine adjustment but makes a huge difference when correct. The pulloff cracks the choke open in the seconds after it starts a set amount so it won't choke out.
3) you may have developed bowl plug leaks in the that need epoxy.
4) after sitting a few weeks longer cranking times are normal with a stock setup. If this happens every morning on a trip, check 1, 2, 3 above.
5) one final overlooked thing that is a quick cold engine off test is to be sure the choke unloader is set correctly. With choke now working and a cold engine and air cleaner lid off, set the choke with one full pedal press. Now press the pedal to the floor and in the last 1/2" or so of pedal pressure you should see the choke rotate open about 1/4". This is the "clear flood" setup where if flooded you hold pedal fully down and crank per the manual. However for this to work your pedal cable has to be fully opening the throttle in the first place.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #322061 is a reply to message #322016] |
Mon, 14 August 2017 09:00 |
Keith V
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Theres SO much to learn, at least you're trying :D
Yes the open plate is the choke, if the engine is cold it should be closed to make the engine start better.
look own through the choke opening and there will be a plate, called a butterfly, that moves when you push the gas pedal.
There is another one under the one in back that is closed, so one on top and one further down, but the top one won't open until you floor it while driving.
The 'choke plate' in back is the vacuum secondary. It only opens when / if the gas pedal is way down and the engine is under load. It's near impossible to get to open sitting in the driveway
The green thing looks like a vacuum filter or check valve
________________________________
From: Gmclist on behalf of kelly stockwell
Sent: Sunday, August 13, 2017 2:35:51 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine
something under that top plate is moving
but it doesn't stay. I pull the chain or push the pedal it moves but then comes back to the resting spot
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/member-galleries/p63532-img-24144.html
what's the small green thing? is that a vacuum line or fuel?
i'm so ignorant
--
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] starting the engine [message #322088 is a reply to message #322061] |
Mon, 14 August 2017 14:45 |
kstockwell
Messages: 367
Registered: May 2016
Location: Putney VT
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ok, so i'm right about what the choke is, and that the green thing is in a vacuum line
Now, how is the pedal going to the floor (once) supposed to close the choke? I can move things but I don't know what should move together, what should move the lever that moves the choke flapper?
I'm not having luck looking at images online for what moves what plates.
And finally, there's supposed to be a tiny gas filter in the carb, looks like a small gold microphone.
how do i get to/change that?
thanks
kelly
1978 Kingsley
Putney VT
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Mon Mar 17 07:33:18 CDT 2025
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01697 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
