Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Update from Colorado!
| Update from Colorado! [message #318165] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 18:36  |
thorndike
Messages: 406
Registered: January 2011
Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Well, I had a helpful visit from Bruce Hart (THANKS, Bruce) to go over my issues.
First, Bruce noticed that my distributor cap was rotated almost 30 degrees from where his was. We tracked the spark plug wires and all were routed appropriately. So we rotated (Bruce did actually) the cap with the engine running and noticed a marked improvement in the idle. While it was running better, I still had issues driving up a slight incline. It was better than before but not good enough to get to my house.
We attempted to throw a timing light on the issue, but with the old gas line in the way, we couldn't get a good view. I was going to replace that line anyway, so I will get one from Jim K. which should allow me to route the line so we can see the timing marks.
Bruce attached a vacuum gauge during our testing as well. When I started the engine, the vacuum gauge was bouncing all over the place. Once the engine was warmed up the needle settled down quite a bit. Any thoughts on what could be causing this?
My discussion with Bruce continued as we discussed solutions to this and future driving in the mountains. Our conversation moved to EFI and the Fitech unit and how it might help alleviate the altitude issues. I will probably end up going this route.
Just thought I would update you all. Any thoughts are appreciated!
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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| Re: Update from Colorado! [message #318179 is a reply to message #318165] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 20:10  |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Since adjusting the timing changed the operation for the better, or more toward normal, you need to find out what caused it to change in the first place. And I would find out about that discrepancy before I messed with changing the induction system.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: Update from Colorado! [message #318181 is a reply to message #318179] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 20:14 |
thorndike
Messages: 406
Registered: January 2011
Location: Conifer, Colorado
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Terry,
That is the plan!
If the timing chain jumped a gear, can that be fixed by resetting the distributor or will the chain need to be removed and reinstalled?
Bullitthead wrote on Mon, 29 May 2017 19:10Since adjusting the timing changed the operation for the better, or more toward normal, you need to find out what caused it to change in the first place. And I would find out about that discrepancy before I messed with changing the induction system.
Robert Peesel
1976 Royale 26'
Side Dry Bath
Conifer, Colorado
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| Re: Update from Colorado! [message #318188 is a reply to message #318181] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 20:47 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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You can only partially compensate for a chain slipped 1 tooth by advancing the timing back up some, and that's what I was hoping would get you home or to your chosen repair shop. If it won't make 45mph on flatland or you've got too much hill to climb then it's not safe on the road. If the chain slipped it was most likely because it was slack and that is a big difference in valve timing when you add the slack and the slipped tooth. You can't make that back up without new gears and a chain.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318189 is a reply to message #318181] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 20:44 |
Richard Denney
Messages: 920
Registered: April 2010
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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If the timing chain jumped a tooth, you'll have to replace it. The
distributor is driven by the camshaft, so the cam timing will be off, too.
The jumped tooth will cause valves to open and close at the wrong time with
respect to the pistons, which could indeed cause the vacuum behavior you
are seeing. The distributor only controls when the spark occurs.
Plus, if it jumps one tooth, one has no confidence it won't jump another.
Could it be that the distributor was mispositioned as a result of trying to
adjust it to make the engine run better?
The original timing chain used a nylon sprocket on the cam. Replace it with
a Cloyes double-roller set, which is all steel and will outlast your
engine. It's a big job but doable by a careful amateur mechanic. Mostly,
it's the hassle of taking just about everything off the front of the
engine. The only required special tool is a harmonic balancer puller, which
you can borrow from Autozone.
Rick "who has done it" Denney
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:14 PM Robert Peesel wrote:
> Terry,
> That is the plan!
> If the timing chain jumped a gear, can that be fixed by resetting the
> distributor or will the chain need to be removed and reinstalled?
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318190 is a reply to message #318189] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 20:51 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Erattic vacuum readings, combined with a huge change in ignition timing
all at once, points to a cam sprocket failure. DON'T RUN THE ENGINE ANY
MORE UNTIL YOU VERIFY THIS. When valves and pistons collide, bad stuff
happens.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 29, 2017 6:45 PM, "Richard Denney" wrote:
If the timing chain jumped a tooth, you'll have to replace it. The
distributor is driven by the camshaft, so the cam timing will be off, too.
The jumped tooth will cause valves to open and close at the wrong time with
respect to the pistons, which could indeed cause the vacuum behavior you
are seeing. The distributor only controls when the spark occurs.
Plus, if it jumps one tooth, one has no confidence it won't jump another.
Could it be that the distributor was mispositioned as a result of trying to
adjust it to make the engine run better?
The original timing chain used a nylon sprocket on the cam. Replace it with
a Cloyes double-roller set, which is all steel and will outlast your
engine. It's a big job but doable by a careful amateur mechanic. Mostly,
it's the hassle of taking just about everything off the front of the
engine. The only required special tool is a harmonic balancer puller, which
you can borrow from Autozone.
Rick "who has done it" Denney
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:14 PM Robert Peesel wrote:
> Terry,
> That is the plan!
> If the timing chain jumped a gear, can that be fixed by resetting the
> distributor or will the chain need to be removed and reinstalled?
>
--
Rick Denney
73 x-Glacier 230 "Jaws"
Off-list email to rick at rickdenney dot com
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| Re: Update from Colorado! [message #318191 is a reply to message #318181] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 21:09 |
A Hamilto
Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011
Karma: 39
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Senior Member |
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thorndike wrote on Mon, 29 May 2017 20:14Terry,
That is the plan!
If the timing chain jumped a gear, can that be fixed by resetting the distributor or will the chain need to be removed and reinstalled?
The chain will need to be removed, and both it, and the gears, replaced with a new set.
I am genuinely hoping that it is not a slipped timing chain. But there wasn't much else to grasp at. If is getting gas, spark, and compression, the only thing that will keep it from running is that those things are not getting where they need to be at the right time: timing chain (or distributor out of adjustment). Just because the distributor cap on yours is not oriented the same as someone else's doesn't mean it was not timed right. The position of the rotor can be about anywhere in that cap.
If the timing chain slips too much, you won't get enough compression to fire, no matter where the distributor is set.
All conjecture until you do some more tear down.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318192 is a reply to message #318165] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 21:03 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Bob's gas line was made out of woven covered rubber tubing that had pressed
on fittings on each end. It went around the thermostat housing on the
left side making it impossible to read the timing marks. #1 position on
the distributor cap was at the 4:30-5 o'clock position with the vacuum
advanced unit at 3:00 o'clock position. Since it was impossible to use a
timing light my thoughts are that whoever had worked on this motor did a
"best that they could under the circumstance".
As noted I had installed a vacuum gauge first thing and on a cold engine it
rapidly pulsated between 2 inches and 10 inches with a slight clacking
noise from the engine. As I turned the distributor clockwise the idle
smoothed out some, clicking stop, and vacuum started to settle down but
pulsed at 9 inches to 11 inches. Where I left the distributor was #1 was
now at 6:00 o'clock position.
Next plan of attack is to reroute the gas line, bring engine up to TDC,
reposition distributor so #1 position is at 7:00 o' clock and check that
rotor lines up with #1 position on distributor cap.
Than do a total timing to 40 degrees at 2800rpms.
All suggests are welcomed
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Robert Peesel wrote:
> Well, I had a helpful visit from Bruce Hart (THANKS, Bruce) to go over my
> issues.
>
> First, Bruce noticed that my distributor cap was rotated almost 30 degrees
> from where his was. We tracked the spark plug wires and all were routed
> appropriately. So we rotated (Bruce did actually) the cap with the engine
> running and noticed a marked improvement in the idle. While it was running
> better, I still had issues driving up a slight incline. It was better
> than before but not good enough to get to my house.
>
> We attempted to throw a timing light on the issue, but with the old gas
> line in the way, we couldn't get a good view. I was going to replace that
> line anyway, so I will get one from Jim K. which should allow me to route
> the line so we can see the timing marks.
>
> Bruce attached a vacuum gauge during our testing as well. When I started
> the engine, the vacuum gauge was bouncing all over the place. Once the
> engine was warmed up the needle settled down quite a bit. Any thoughts on
> what could be causing this?
>
> My discussion with Bruce continued as we discussed solutions to this and
> future driving in the mountains. Our conversation moved to EFI and the
> Fitech unit and how it might help alleviate the altitude issues. I will
> probably end up going this route.
>
> Just thought I would update you all. Any thoughts are appreciated!
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Peesel
>
> 1976 Royale 26'
>
> Side Dry Bath
>
> Conifer, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318194 is a reply to message #318192] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 21:20 |
C Boyd
Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006
Karma: 18
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Senior Member |
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As a suggestion, use a timing light with an adjustable timing knob. You can set light at 40* and bring rpm up and shoot timing tab at zero which can barely be seen as 40 cannot be seen and is not marked on tab.
Bruce Hart wrote on Mon, 29 May 2017 22:03Bob's gas line was made out of woven covered rubber tubing that had pressed
on fittings on each end. It went around the thermostat housing on the
left side making it impossible to read the timing marks. #1 position on
the distributor cap was at the 4:30-5 o'clock position with the vacuum
advanced unit at 3:00 o'clock position. Since it was impossible to use a
timing light my thoughts are that whoever had worked on this motor did a
"best that they could under the circumstance".
As noted I had installed a vacuum gauge first thing and on a cold engine it
rapidly pulsated between 2 inches and 10 inches with a slight clacking
noise from the engine. As I turned the distributor clockwise the idle
smoothed out some, clicking stop, and vacuum started to settle down but
pulsed at 9 inches to 11 inches. Where I left the distributor was #1 was
now at 6:00 o'clock position.
Next plan of attack is to reroute the gas line, bring engine up to TDC,
reposition distributor so #1 position is at 7:00 o' clock and check that
rotor lines up with #1 position on distributor cap.
Than do a total timing to 40 degrees at 2800rpms.
All suggests are welcomed
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Robert Peesel wrote:
> Well, I had a helpful visit from Bruce Hart (THANKS, Bruce) to go over my
> issues.
>
> First, Bruce noticed that my distributor cap was rotated almost 30 degrees
> from where his was. We tracked the spark plug wires and all were routed
> appropriately. So we rotated (Bruce did actually) the cap with the engine
> running and noticed a marked improvement in the idle. While it was running
> better, I still had issues driving up a slight incline. It was better
> than before but not good enough to get to my house.
>
> We attempted to throw a timing light on the issue, but with the old gas
> line in the way, we couldn't get a good view. I was going to replace that
> line anyway, so I will get one from Jim K. which should allow me to route
> the line so we can see the timing marks.
>
> Bruce attached a vacuum gauge during our testing as well. When I started
> the engine, the vacuum gauge was bouncing all over the place. Once the
> engine was warmed up the needle settled down quite a bit. Any thoughts on
> what could be causing this?
>
> My discussion with Bruce continued as we discussed solutions to this and
> future driving in the mountains. Our conversation moved to EFI and the
> Fitech unit and how it might help alleviate the altitude issues. I will
> probably end up going this route.
>
> Just thought I would update you all. Any thoughts are appreciated!
>
>
>
> --
> Robert Peesel
>
> 1976 Royale 26'
>
> Side Dry Bath
>
> Conifer, Colorado
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318204 is a reply to message #318194] |
Mon, 29 May 2017 22:38 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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That's the plan, but as it is right now the gas line is in the line of
sight and it is to stiff to move out of the way. There is no way to see
the timing marks around the gas line.
Elevation is at 7,000+ feet
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Charles Boyd
wrote:
> As a suggestion, use a timing light with an adjustable timing knob. You
> can set light at 40* and bring rpm up and shoot timing tab at zero which can
> barely be seen as 40 cannot be seen and is not marked on tab.
>
>
>
> Bruce Hart wrote on Mon, 29 May 2017 22:03
>> Bob's gas line was made out of woven covered rubber tubing that had
> pressed
>> on fittings on each end. It went around the thermostat housing on the
>> left side making it impossible to read the timing marks. #1 position on
>> the distributor cap was at the 4:30-5 o'clock position with the vacuum
>> advanced unit at 3:00 o'clock position. Since it was impossible to use a
>> timing light my thoughts are that whoever had worked on this motor did a
>> "best that they could under the circumstance".
>>
>> As noted I had installed a vacuum gauge first thing and on a cold engine
> it
>> rapidly pulsated between 2 inches and 10 inches with a slight clacking
>> noise from the engine. As I turned the distributor clockwise the idle
>> smoothed out some, clicking stop, and vacuum started to settle down but
>> pulsed at 9 inches to 11 inches. Where I left the distributor was #1 was
>> now at 6:00 o'clock position.
>> Next plan of attack is to reroute the gas line, bring engine up to TDC,
>> reposition distributor so #1 position is at 7:00 o' clock and check that
>> rotor lines up with #1 position on distributor cap.
>> Than do a total timing to 40 degrees at 2800rpms.
>>
>> All suggests are welcomed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Robert Peesel wrote:
>>
>>> Well, I had a helpful visit from Bruce Hart (THANKS, Bruce) to go
> over my
>>> issues.
>>>
>>> First, Bruce noticed that my distributor cap was rotated almost 30
> degrees
>>> from where his was. We tracked the spark plug wires and all were
> routed
>>> appropriately. So we rotated (Bruce did actually) the cap with the
> engine
>>> running and noticed a marked improvement in the idle. While it was
> running
>>> better, I still had issues driving up a slight incline. It was better
>>> than before but not good enough to get to my house.
>>>
>>> We attempted to throw a timing light on the issue, but with the old
> gas
>>> line in the way, we couldn't get a good view. I was going to replace
> that
>>> line anyway, so I will get one from Jim K. which should allow me to
> route
>>> the line so we can see the timing marks.
>>>
>>> Bruce attached a vacuum gauge during our testing as well. When I
> started
>>> the engine, the vacuum gauge was bouncing all over the place. Once
> the
>>> engine was warmed up the needle settled down quite a bit. Any
> thoughts on
>>> what could be causing this?
>>>
>>> My discussion with Bruce continued as we discussed solutions to this
> and
>>> future driving in the mountains. Our conversation moved to EFI and
> the
>>> Fitech unit and how it might help alleviate the altitude issues. I
> will
>>> probably end up going this route.
>>>
>>> Just thought I would update you all. Any thoughts are appreciated!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Robert Peesel
>>>
>>> 1976 Royale 26'
>>>
>>> Side Dry Bath
>>>
>>> Conifer, Colorado
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruce Hart
>> 1976 Palm Beach
>> Milliken, Co
>> GMC=Got More Class
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
>
> --
> C. Boyd
> 76 Crestmont
> East Tennessee
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
_______________________________________________
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318211 is a reply to message #318204] |
Tue, 30 May 2017 04:50 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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A new dash along with new gauges was installed in this coach so mileage is
an unknown other than the speedo shows 40,000 on it.
Would removing the fuel pump and looking through the hole, can it give us
any indication of how loose the timing chain is?
A good place for a bore scope?
On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 9:38 PM, Bruce Hart wrote:
> That's the plan, but as it is right now the gas line is in the line of
> sight and it is to stiff to move out of the way. There is no way to see
> the timing marks around the gas line.
> Elevation is at 7,000+ feet
>
> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 8:20 PM, Charles Boyd
> wrote:
>
>> As a suggestion, use a timing light with an adjustable timing knob. You
>> can set light at 40* and bring rpm up and shoot timing tab at zero which can
>> barely be seen as 40 cannot be seen and is not marked on tab.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce Hart wrote on Mon, 29 May 2017 22:03
>>> Bob's gas line was made out of woven covered rubber tubing that had
>> pressed
>>> on fittings on each end. It went around the thermostat housing on the
>>> left side making it impossible to read the timing marks. #1 position on
>>> the distributor cap was at the 4:30-5 o'clock position with the vacuum
>>> advanced unit at 3:00 o'clock position. Since it was impossible to use a
>>> timing light my thoughts are that whoever had worked on this motor did a
>>> "best that they could under the circumstance".
>>>
>>> As noted I had installed a vacuum gauge first thing and on a cold
>> engine it
>>> rapidly pulsated between 2 inches and 10 inches with a slight clacking
>>> noise from the engine. As I turned the distributor clockwise the idle
>>> smoothed out some, clicking stop, and vacuum started to settle down but
>>> pulsed at 9 inches to 11 inches. Where I left the distributor was #1
>> was
>>> now at 6:00 o'clock position.
>>> Next plan of attack is to reroute the gas line, bring engine up to TDC,
>>> reposition distributor so #1 position is at 7:00 o' clock and check that
>>> rotor lines up with #1 position on distributor cap.
>>> Than do a total timing to 40 degrees at 2800rpms.
>>>
>>> All suggests are welcomed
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 29, 2017 at 5:37 PM, Robert Peesel wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, I had a helpful visit from Bruce Hart (THANKS, Bruce) to go
>> over my
>>>> issues.
>>>>
>>>> First, Bruce noticed that my distributor cap was rotated almost 30
>> degrees
>>>> from where his was. We tracked the spark plug wires and all were
>> routed
>>>> appropriately. So we rotated (Bruce did actually) the cap with the
>> engine
>>>> running and noticed a marked improvement in the idle. While it was
>> running
>>>> better, I still had issues driving up a slight incline. It was
>> better
>>>> than before but not good enough to get to my house.
>>>>
>>>> We attempted to throw a timing light on the issue, but with the old
>> gas
>>>> line in the way, we couldn't get a good view. I was going to
>> replace that
>>>> line anyway, so I will get one from Jim K. which should allow me to
>> route
>>>> the line so we can see the timing marks.
>>>>
>>>> Bruce attached a vacuum gauge during our testing as well. When I
>> started
>>>> the engine, the vacuum gauge was bouncing all over the place. Once
>> the
>>>> engine was warmed up the needle settled down quite a bit. Any
>> thoughts on
>>>> what could be causing this?
>>>>
>>>> My discussion with Bruce continued as we discussed solutions to this
>> and
>>>> future driving in the mountains. Our conversation moved to EFI and
>> the
>>>> Fitech unit and how it might help alleviate the altitude issues. I
>> will
>>>> probably end up going this route.
>>>>
>>>> Just thought I would update you all. Any thoughts are appreciated!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Robert Peesel
>>>>
>>>> 1976 Royale 26'
>>>>
>>>> Side Dry Bath
>>>>
>>>> Conifer, Colorado
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bruce Hart
>>> 1976 Palm Beach
>>> Milliken, Co
>>> GMC=Got More Class
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>>
>> --
>> C. Boyd
>> 76 Crestmont
>> East Tennessee
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
> GMC=Got More Class
>
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: Update from Colorado! [message #318212 is a reply to message #318165] |
Tue, 30 May 2017 05:32 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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|
It would be worth a try. I did this recently and Was able to tell that the engine had a oem gear(single and could aee the color difference of the fiber teeth.
As far as checking timing chain tightness i am guessing you can tell if it is catastrophicly loose. And I would guess it has to be pretty loose to skip a tooth. The 40k mile engine i checked(was nee fuel pump time). I could not detect Any looseness, so not entirely convinced pushing on the chain in that little hole is absolute test yet. Others can chime in if they were able to detect a loose chain for sure.
Jim hupy's words are to be taken very seriously. So the timing chain is maybe something to check. Pump is not hard to remove and install if you take off wheel and wheel well liner.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
[Updated on: Tue, 30 May 2017 06:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318213 is a reply to message #318212] |
Tue, 30 May 2017 07:28 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
|
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I don't know how many times Bob tried to start his engine and drive it up a
hill to check power, but after we adjusted the timing we took a little trip
up the hill and around the neighborhood.
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 4:32 AM, Jon Roche wrote:
> It would be worth a try. I did this recently and Was able to tell that
> the engine had a oem gear(single and could aee the color difference of the
> fiber teeth.
>
> As far as checking timing chain tightness i am guessing you can tell if it
> is catastrophicly loose. And I would guess it has to be pretty loose to
> skip a tooth. The 40k mile engine i checked(was nee fuel pump time). I
> could not detect Any looseness, so not entirely convinced pushing on the
> chain in that little hole is absolute test yet. Others can chime in if
> they were able to detect a loose chain for sure.
>
> Jom hupy's worda are to be taken very seriously. So that maybe something
> to check. Pump is not hard to remove and install if you take off wheel and
> wheel well liner.
> --
> Jon Roche
> 75 palm beach
> St. Cloud, MN
> http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318229 is a reply to message #318226] |
Tue, 30 May 2017 10:43 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yes, remove the mechanical fuel pump and I use a piece of 1/8" steel
welding rod with a "j" shaped hook bent into the end. Reach through the
hole, hook onto the chain, and try to move it towards you and alternately
away from you. More than 1/4" slop is cause for concern. There is no cam
chain tensioners or wear shoes in an Olds.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On May 30, 2017 8:29 AM, "Jerry Burt" wrote:
> You can definitely feel any slack in the chain through the fuel pump hole.
> (Any movement more than an 1/8" is too much)
> Also, FYI, if you have the intake off, you can see what the cam gear
> material is through the oil return hole.
> Yes, I have to replace my timing set. :(
>
> lqqkatjon wrote on Tue, 30 May 2017 03:32
>> It would be worth a try. I did this recently and Was able to tell that
> the engine had a oem gear(single and could aee the color difference of the
>> fiber teeth.
>>
>> As far as checking timing chain tightness i am guessing you can tell if
> it is catastrophicly loose. And I would guess it has to be pretty loose
>> to skip a tooth. The 40k mile engine i checked(was nee fuel pump time).
> I could not detect Any looseness, so not entirely convinced pushing on the
>> chain in that little hole is absolute test yet. Others can chime in if
> they were able to detect a loose chain for sure.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim hupy's words are to be taken very seriously. So the timing chain is
> maybe something to check. Pump is not hard to remove and install if you
>> take off wheel and wheel well liner.
>
>
> --
> Patti & Jerry Burt
> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
> 77 Palm Beach
> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318342 is a reply to message #318229] |
Thu, 01 June 2017 19:56 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
|
Senior Member |
|
|
If the timing chain was loose and it skipped a tooth would it advance the
timing or would it retard the timing?
On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:43 AM, James Hupy wrote:
> Yes, remove the mechanical fuel pump and I use a piece of 1/8" steel
> welding rod with a "j" shaped hook bent into the end. Reach through the
> hole, hook onto the chain, and try to move it towards you and alternately
> away from you. More than 1/4" slop is cause for concern. There is no cam
> chain tensioners or wear shoes in an Olds.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On May 30, 2017 8:29 AM, "Jerry Burt" wrote:
>
>> You can definitely feel any slack in the chain through the fuel pump
> hole.
>> (Any movement more than an 1/8" is too much)
>> Also, FYI, if you have the intake off, you can see what the cam gear
>> material is through the oil return hole.
>> Yes, I have to replace my timing set. :(
>>
>> lqqkatjon wrote on Tue, 30 May 2017 03:32
>>> It would be worth a try. I did this recently and Was able to tell that
>> the engine had a oem gear(single and could aee the color difference of
> the
>>> fiber teeth.
>>>
>>> As far as checking timing chain tightness i am guessing you can tell if
>> it is catastrophicly loose. And I would guess it has to be pretty loose
>>> to skip a tooth. The 40k mile engine i checked(was nee fuel pump
> time).
>> I could not detect Any looseness, so not entirely convinced pushing on
> the
>>> chain in that little hole is absolute test yet. Others can chime in
> if
>> they were able to detect a loose chain for sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim hupy's words are to be taken very seriously. So the timing chain
> is
>> maybe something to check. Pump is not hard to remove and install if you
>>> take off wheel and wheel well liner.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Patti & Jerry Burt
>> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
>> 77 Palm Beach
>> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
_______________________________________________
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Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318343 is a reply to message #318342] |
Thu, 01 June 2017 20:03 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The crankshaft, which is driven by the piston thrust, would out-accelerate
the camshaft, which is being held back with the valve springs. In effect,
the camshaft timing will become Retarded. Really does not matter, if you
run it that way very long, bad STUFF will happen.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jun 1, 2017 5:57 PM, "Bruce Hart" wrote:
> If the timing chain was loose and it skipped a tooth would it advance the
> timing or would it retard the timing?
>
>
>
> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:43 AM, James Hupy wrote:
>
>> Yes, remove the mechanical fuel pump and I use a piece of 1/8" steel
>> welding rod with a "j" shaped hook bent into the end. Reach through the
>> hole, hook onto the chain, and try to move it towards you and alternately
>> away from you. More than 1/4" slop is cause for concern. There is no cam
>> chain tensioners or wear shoes in an Olds.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or
>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>
>> On May 30, 2017 8:29 AM, "Jerry Burt" wrote:
>>
>>> You can definitely feel any slack in the chain through the fuel pump
>> hole.
>>> (Any movement more than an 1/8" is too much)
>>> Also, FYI, if you have the intake off, you can see what the cam gear
>>> material is through the oil return hole.
>>> Yes, I have to replace my timing set. :(
>>>
>>> lqqkatjon wrote on Tue, 30 May 2017 03:32
>>>> It would be worth a try. I did this recently and Was able to tell
> that
>>> the engine had a oem gear(single and could aee the color difference of
>> the
>>>> fiber teeth.
>>>>
>>>> As far as checking timing chain tightness i am guessing you can tell
> if
>>> it is catastrophicly loose. And I would guess it has to be pretty
> loose
>>>> to skip a tooth. The 40k mile engine i checked(was nee fuel pump
>> time).
>>> I could not detect Any looseness, so not entirely convinced pushing on
>> the
>>>> chain in that little hole is absolute test yet. Others can chime in
>> if
>>> they were able to detect a loose chain for sure.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jim hupy's words are to be taken very seriously. So the timing chain
>> is
>>> maybe something to check. Pump is not hard to remove and install if
> you
>>>> take off wheel and wheel well liner.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Patti & Jerry Burt
>>> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
>>> 77 Palm Beach
>>> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
> GMC=Got More Class
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
_______________________________________________
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318345 is a reply to message #318343] |
Thu, 01 June 2017 20:17 |
Bruce Hart
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim, I had a good conversation with the ratggy ass mechanic (Bill B.) and
have come up with a possible check on the condition of the time gear set.
Using a breaker bar with proper size socket on damper pulley bolt, take up
the slack on the chain in one direction, now reverse direction of rotation
and have someone watch for or even use a dial indicator on the distributor
and check for how much rotation is in the crank before distributor moves.
My coach has10,000 miles on a rebuilt motor and I could compare it to the
rotation on Bob's coach.
On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 7:03 PM, James Hupy wrote:
> The crankshaft, which is driven by the piston thrust, would out-accelerate
> the camshaft, which is being held back with the valve springs. In effect,
> the camshaft timing will become Retarded. Really does not matter, if you
> run it that way very long, bad STUFF will happen.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On Jun 1, 2017 5:57 PM, "Bruce Hart" wrote:
>
>> If the timing chain was loose and it skipped a tooth would it advance the
>> timing or would it retard the timing?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:43 AM, James Hupy
> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, remove the mechanical fuel pump and I use a piece of 1/8" steel
>>> welding rod with a "j" shaped hook bent into the end. Reach through the
>>> hole, hook onto the chain, and try to move it towards you and
> alternately
>>> away from you. More than 1/4" slop is cause for concern. There is no
> cam
>>> chain tensioners or wear shoes in an Olds.
>>> Jim Hupy
>>> Salem, Or
>>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>>
>>> On May 30, 2017 8:29 AM, "Jerry Burt" wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can definitely feel any slack in the chain through the fuel pump
>>> hole.
>>>> (Any movement more than an 1/8" is too much)
>>>> Also, FYI, if you have the intake off, you can see what the cam gear
>>>> material is through the oil return hole.
>>>> Yes, I have to replace my timing set. :(
>>>>
>>>> lqqkatjon wrote on Tue, 30 May 2017 03:32
>>>> > It would be worth a try. I did this recently and Was able to tell
>> that
>>>> the engine had a oem gear(single and could aee the color difference
> of
>>> the
>>>> > fiber teeth.
>>>> >
>>>> > As far as checking timing chain tightness i am guessing you can
> tell
>> if
>>>> it is catastrophicly loose. And I would guess it has to be pretty
>> loose
>>>> > to skip a tooth. The 40k mile engine i checked(was nee fuel pump
>>> time).
>>>> I could not detect Any looseness, so not entirely convinced pushing
> on
>>> the
>>>> > chain in that little hole is absolute test yet. Others can chime
> in
>>> if
>>>> they were able to detect a loose chain for sure.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Jim hupy's words are to be taken very seriously. So the timing
> chain
>>> is
>>>> maybe something to check. Pump is not hard to remove and install if
>> you
>>>> > take off wheel and wheel well liner.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Patti & Jerry Burt
>>>> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
>>>> 77 Palm Beach
>>>> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruce Hart
>> 1976 Palm Beach
>> Milliken, Co
>> GMC=Got More Class
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
1977 28' Kingsley
La Grange, Wyoming
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Update from Colorado! [message #318347 is a reply to message #318189] |
Thu, 01 June 2017 21:18 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Yes, that is a good, precise, method of checking chain snatch. Different
mfg. specs out there. Some are sloppy loose from new, some not. Olds is
fairly tight when new, but on their engines with nylon teeth coating the
cam sprocket, they wear out around 80,000 or so miles. The industrial
engines, which were supposed to be fitted in motorhomes, should have been
fitted with all steel gears. But, some slipped through with cylent sets, as
they were known. Any method that takes up all the slack in the chain should
work for comparison.
Jim Hupy
On Jun 1, 2017 6:18 PM, "Bruce Hart" wrote:
Jim, I had a good conversation with the ratggy ass mechanic (Bill B.) and
have come up with a possible check on the condition of the time gear set.
Using a breaker bar with proper size socket on damper pulley bolt, take up
the slack on the chain in one direction, now reverse direction of rotation
and have someone watch for or even use a dial indicator on the distributor
and check for how much rotation is in the crank before distributor moves.
My coach has10,000 miles on a rebuilt motor and I could compare it to the
rotation on Bob's coach.
On Thu, Jun 1, 2017 at 7:03 PM, James Hupy wrote:
> The crankshaft, which is driven by the piston thrust, would out-accelerate
> the camshaft, which is being held back with the valve springs. In effect,
> the camshaft timing will become Retarded. Really does not matter, if you
> run it that way very long, bad STUFF will happen.
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, Or
> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
> On Jun 1, 2017 5:57 PM, "Bruce Hart" wrote:
>
>> If the timing chain was loose and it skipped a tooth would it advance
the
>> timing or would it retard the timing?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 30, 2017 at 9:43 AM, James Hupy
> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, remove the mechanical fuel pump and I use a piece of 1/8" steel
>>> welding rod with a "j" shaped hook bent into the end. Reach through
the
>>> hole, hook onto the chain, and try to move it towards you and
> alternately
>>> away from you. More than 1/4" slop is cause for concern. There is no
> cam
>>> chain tensioners or wear shoes in an Olds.
>>> Jim Hupy
>>> Salem, Or
>>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>>>
>>> On May 30, 2017 8:29 AM, "Jerry Burt" wrote:
>>>
>>>> You can definitely feel any slack in the chain through the fuel pump
>>> hole.
>>>> (Any movement more than an 1/8" is too much)
>>>> Also, FYI, if you have the intake off, you can see what the cam gear
>>>> material is through the oil return hole.
>>>> Yes, I have to replace my timing set. :(
>>>>
>>>> lqqkatjon wrote on Tue, 30 May 2017 03:32
>>>> > It would be worth a try. I did this recently and Was able to tell
>> that
>>>> the engine had a oem gear(single and could aee the color difference
> of
>>> the
>>>> > fiber teeth.
>>>> >
>>>> > As far as checking timing chain tightness i am guessing you can
> tell
>> if
>>>> it is catastrophicly loose. And I would guess it has to be pretty
>> loose
>>>> > to skip a tooth. The 40k mile engine i checked(was nee fuel pump
>>> time).
>>>> I could not detect Any looseness, so not entirely convinced pushing
> on
>>> the
>>>> > chain in that little hole is absolute test yet. Others can chime
> in
>>> if
>>>> they were able to detect a loose chain for sure.
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Jim hupy's words are to be taken very seriously. So the timing
> chain
>>> is
>>>> maybe something to check. Pump is not hard to remove and install
if
>> you
>>>> > take off wheel and wheel well liner.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Patti & Jerry Burt
>>>> 73 Gmc 26' Canyon Lands -
>>>> 77 Palm Beach
>>>> Members: FMCA - GMCMI - GMCWS - Pacific Cruisers - 49ers
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GMCnet mailing list
>>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Bruce Hart
>> 1976 Palm Beach
>> Milliken, Co
>> GMC=Got More Class
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
_______________________________________________
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