Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself
| [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313206] |
Tue, 14 February 2017 14:18  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
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Senior Member |
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Bet none of you have ever done that. I got two new ones from Jim Bounds just this last April. The gauge started to get to the red about one month later on the engine unit. Then I forgot to check back later. Now it's well into the red. Basically worthless as of now. So I called Jim to see what to do. He said that there were some that had Teflon tape sealant used on them. And those were prone to leak. Then later they use a translucent gel as a sealant for the brass fitting near the top. Mine has the gel. Some how something is still leaking. So he said to send it back to be recharged. The cost would be $25 plus shipping. So to save the shipping back, and fort. I'm just going to have someone local recharge it each year from now on. Just simpler. My point here is that we all need to check this extinguisher each year. For the dry chemical units. Pick them up twice a year. And shack them vigorously. If it's been along time. Pick them up, and turn them up side down from how they were positioned. Then lightly tape the top side with a hammer. Then shack for a few minutes. This will fluff up the dry chemical that has settled into a solid at what ever side that was down. Want to be real safe. And after you've done this. Buy new ones. And keep the fluffed up one as a back up. Bob Dunahugh
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313207 is a reply to message #313206] |
Tue, 14 February 2017 14:29  |
Kimberlea Weeks
Messages: 675
Registered: July 2010
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Mac the Fire Guy will be the Vintage Motorhome Celebration hosted by GMCMI
teaching, demonstrating and selling fire extinguishers, plus other items.
Register today to attend!
Information and registration available at:
http://www.gmcmi.com/2017s-conv-info/
Kimberlea Weeks
VP Administration and Convention Manager
612.501.4600 | f.866.519.0047 | www.gmcmi.com
GMC Motorhomes International
1402 So. Cage Blvd | Unit 273 | Pharr | TX 78577-6288
We invite you to join us at all of our events!
"A Vintage Motorhomes Celebration"
Registration is open, register today!
Friday, March 24 to Thursday, March 30, 2017
Heart of Oklahoma Exposition Center, Shawnee, Oklahoma
On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 2:18 PM, Bob Dunahugh wrote:
> Bet none of you have ever done that. I got two new ones from Jim Bounds
> just this last April. The gauge started to get to the red about one month
> later on the engine unit. Then I forgot to check back later. Now it's well
> into the red. Basically worthless as of now. So I called Jim to see what to
> do. He said that there were some that had Teflon tape sealant used on them.
> And those were prone to leak. Then later they use a translucent gel as a
> sealant for the brass fitting near the top. Mine has the gel. Some how
> something is still leaking. So he said to send it back to be recharged. The
> cost would be $25 plus shipping. So to save the shipping back, and fort.
> I'm just going to have someone local recharge it each year from now on.
> Just simpler. My point here is that we all need to check this extinguisher
> each year. For the dry chemical units. Pick them up twice a year. And
> shack them vigorously. If it's been along time. Pick them up, and turn them
> up side down from how they were positioned. Then lightly tape the top side
> with a hammer. Then shack for a few minutes. This will fluff up the dry
> chemical that has settled into a solid at what ever side that was down.
> Want to be real safe. And after you've done this. Buy new ones. And keep
> the fluffed up one as a back up. Bob Dunahugh
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313208 is a reply to message #313206] |
Tue, 14 February 2017 14:54 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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G'day,
I would suggest that those of you have not done so review this document:
http://www.gmceast.com/technical/Mueller_GMCer-Fire-Guide.pdf
As far as dry chemical units go they are the last type you want to use, the
powder is corrosive and will cause heaps of damage.
Agueous foam units are by far superior to dry chemical and won't cause
damage.
Having said this obviouosly if it's a choice between your GMC burning to the
ground and suffering corrosive damage from using a dry chemical fire
extinguisher that decision is a no brainer.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob
Dunahugh
Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2017 7:18 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD
if you love your spouse and yourself
Bet none of you have ever done that. I got two new ones from Jim Bounds just
this last April. The gauge started to get to the red about one month later
on the engine unit. Then I forgot to check back later. Now it's well into
the red. Basically worthless as of now. So I called Jim to see what to do.
He said that there were some that had Teflon tape sealant used on them. And
those were prone to leak. Then later they use a translucent gel as a
sealant for the brass fitting near the top. Mine has the gel. Some how
something is still leaking. So he said to send it back to be recharged. The
cost would be $25 plus shipping. So to save the shipping back, and fort. I'm
just going to have someone local recharge it each year from now on. Just
simpler. My point here is that we all need to check this extinguisher each
year. For the dry chemical units. Pick them up twice a year. And shack them
vigorously. If it's been along time. Pick them up, and turn them up side
down from how they we
re positioned. Then lightly tape the top side with a hammer. Then shack for
a few minutes. This will fluff up the dry chemical that has settled into a
solid at what ever side that was down. Want to be real safe. And after
you've done this. Buy new ones. And keep the fluffed up one as a back up.
Bob Dunahugh
_______________________________________________
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313212 is a reply to message #313206] |
Tue, 14 February 2017 15:37 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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My 26' has an old halon 1211 in the engine compartment, to be replaced with a foam system. I've a couple of foam hand held also from FireFight.
friend had a dry system extinguish an electrical fire in a UHF TV plant. They then wrote off a six month old ~~ million dollar UHF transmitter. Total junk from the powder corrosion.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313215 is a reply to message #313212] |
Tue, 14 February 2017 15:51 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Use dry chemical to save humans or pets. Whatever electrical or mechanical
equipment that it hits will be damaged nearly beyond repair. I understand
that it makes biscuits rise fairly well. Seems to me a better use than fire
extinguishing. AAAF or Inert gasses do a great job on equipment fires, and
leave no harmful residue. Inert gasses like halon are harmful to humans in
a closed environment, so vacate after deployment. Get all the precise,
factual, information from Jim Bounds, or Jim Kanomata about what to use,
and where to use it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403 engine compartment protected by Halon self-deploying
system from Jim Bounds.
On Feb 14, 2017 1:38 PM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> My 26' has an old halon 1211 in the engine compartment, to be replaced
> with a foam system. I've a couple of foam hand held also from FireFight.
> friend had a dry system extinguish an electrical fire in a UHF TV plant.
> They then wrote off a six month old ~~ million dollar UHF transmitter.
> Total junk from the powder corrosion.
>
> --johnny
>
> --
> '76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and
> add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "The road goes on forever, and the party never ends" --Robert Earl Keen
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313219 is a reply to message #313206] |
Tue, 14 February 2017 16:53 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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I wonder about the Halon bottle in my coach - given the bottom opf the engine bay is open and the stuff's heavier than air I wonder how effective it will be.
We used Halon in the studio complex, sized for an 8 - 10% concentration. Wouldn't hurt you in that concentration in the time it takes to vacate. The code required something and I didn't want to pour water out of a sprinkler on many thousands of dollars of equipment. If you inhale a bit of Halon, it's the reverse of helium... it will put balls on a squeeker.
Since at the time we were 24 hour manned, we were allowed to use a 90 second delay - if the system went off from a sensor or a pull box, you had 90 seconds to fade for the equipment room and call it off. If there were a visible fire, you had the same 90 to get out and shut the door. One jockette managed to set it off one night anyhow - her boyfriend pulled a pull station.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313221 is a reply to message #313219] |
Tue, 14 February 2017 17:21 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jim Bounds told of an incident at a GMC Drag race event where a coach
engine fire started and it was equipped with a halon bottle like mine.
There were fire personnel on site and as they were approaching the coach
with dry chemical hand helds, the halon bottle deployed with a whooshing
sound and completely extinguished the fire without reignition. They
exclaimed "What the hell was that?" He explained the bottle. They were
impressed. That incident sold me on the on board systems. I believe that
the foam is equally up to the task, and it has a residual effect that helps
prevent reignition. I have repaired several burned coaches that were
extinguished, and cleaned dry chemical stuff for enough hours that I don't
care if I ever do it again. I have seen 5 coaches burned to the lug nuts.
Prevention is much better than fighting a fire after it gets going.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
On Feb 14, 2017 2:53 PM, "Johnny Bridges via Gmclist" <
gmclist@list.gmcnet.org> wrote:
> I wonder about the Halon bottle in my coach - given the bottom opf the
> engine bay is open and the stuff's heavier than air I wonder how effective
> it
> will be.
> We used Halon in the studio complex, sized for an 8 - 10% concentration.
> Wouldn't hurt you in that concentration in the time it takes to vacate. The
> code required something and I didn't want to pour water out of a sprinkler
> on many thousands of dollars of equipment. If you inhale a bit of Halon,
> it's the reverse of helium... it will put balls on a squeeker.
> Since at the time we were 24 hour manned, we were allowed to use a 90
> second delay - if the system went off from a sensor or a pull box, you had
> 90
> seconds to fade for the equipment room and call it off. If there were a
> visible fire, you had the same 90 to get out and shut the door. One
> jockette
> managed to set it off one night anyhow - her boyfriend pulled a pull
> station.
>
> --johnny
> --
> '76 23' transmode Norris upfit, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and
> add - ons.
> Braselton, Ga.
> "The road goes on forever, and the party never ends" --Robert Earl Keen
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313298 is a reply to message #313207] |
Thu, 16 February 2017 03:09 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Rob Mueller's excellent document from 2013 accurately covers the pluses and minuses of most common fire extinguishers types. Almost any type of extinguisher will work when used under conditions that they are designed for. That is where we come into a problem. What conditions are we most likely to find in a motorhome.
I suggest that these are the most common areas listed in order of probability:
1. A gasoline (fuel) fed fire in the engine area.
2. A lubricant (oil or trans fluid) fed fire in the engine or transmission area.
3. A propane fed fire in the refrigerator, or furnace area.
4. A gasoline fed fire in the generator area.
5. A propane or grease started fie in the kitchen area.
6. An electrical started fire anywhere in the coach.
After I had a coach fire and fought it successfully about 10 years ago, I decided to learn about the various fire possibilities and way to protect or fight them in the future.
When I say "successfully" I am saying that I luckily put the fire out after several attempts with what I had at hand. I did not have the best extinguisher types available.
After the fire I still had State Farm pay me just under $10,000 to fix all of the damage. I had more damage from using dry chemical extinguishers that I did from the actual fire.
I, and several other GMCers, decided to learn as much as possible and to spread what we learned to the GMC community. One of the participating GMCers was a full time fire fighter. Another major resource was our local airport manager who is also a lieutenant with the fire department. He also organized and ran a 2 week hands on fire fighter school for various fire departments in a 150 mile radius of our airport. One other resource we had is the owner of a local company of about 440 employees that makes fire fighting equipment. He also is building a fire training tower for all interested departments to use.
In summary here is what we learned by extinguisher type.
1. Halon and it's more modern substitutes gas types.
This type works well in closed environments (specifically rooms) and does little if any damage to equipment in the treated areas. To it's detriment the area treated (usually rooms) needs to be completely evacuated prior to its deployment. When used in open areas, because it is heavier than air, it quickly falls to bottom and away from the fire. So in areas around an engine (where the bottom open) it needs to be applied from the top and needs to be over applied so as to keep the top area flooded as it extinguishes the lower areas an falls away. This is difficult to accomplish when an engine is moving down the road or stopped running with the radiator fan blowing in fresh air from the outside.
Note: In a past life I use to design and sell halon systems for large computer, telephone, and industrial motor rooms.
2. CO2 is another gas extinguisher like Halon, but is also cools very rapidly. While it also settles down like Halon, it also can damage whatever it touches if it is not applied judiciously. At one time I worked as an electrician in a very large steel mill.
The company ran their own rebuild facility for motors and generators. So if we had a motor or generator burn up it would be sent to the motor shop for rebuild. Some of these motors were large enough that we would climb inside them to clean insulators and check brushes etc. on a weekly basis. We were expressly FORBIDDEN to use CO2 on any motor or generator because it could, and usually did, crystallize the metal components and frame so as to make it no longer rebuildable. All of that said, I did use CO2 on my coach when it caught fire and I still have one in my coach.
3. Dry Chemical fire extinguishers work well but the clean up and damage can be extensive. Most dry chem extinguishers (except sodium bicarb) are very caustic. I had problems removing the dry chemical after my fire. I tried compress air first. Then pressure washing it with soap and water. After that did not work well, I tried neutralizing it and cleaning it again. In the end it corroded everything copper and brass and pitted steel items like my headers. I had to replace every wire in the engine area and in the front of radiator all the way to the head lights. I replaced ALL of the engine accessories except the AC compressor and later had to replace the compressor clutch. I spent more money on fixing dry chem damage than I spent on actual fire damage. On top of that when I tried dry chem it would put out the fire for 5 or 10 seconds and then reignite. I finally used CO2 to extinguish the fire.
4. The last one I'll cover is AFFF. AFFF is my extinguisher of choice. In its most common type it is 97% water and 3% concentrate. That is what you will most commonly find. AFFF is my preferred extinguisher for all around use in a GMC motorhome. It does an excellent job and does not leave any residual damage.
AFFF has two negatives.
A. In it's normal mixture (3%) it does not like ethanol (polar solvents) and will not sustain the foam when applied to a fire. It is approved for the E-10 gasoline that a lot of us get today but it is right on the edge of where it works. We have tried it with straight gasoline and with E-10. When sprayed on an E-10 fire the foam dissipates much more quickly requiring more AFFF to be applied. There is another product called AR-AFFF (Alcohol Resistant-AFFF) that will work much better. The AFFF concentrate that I use here comes from Ansul and is specified for use at both 3% and 6% mixture. The 6% mix is AR-AFFF compliant while a 3% mix of the same stuff is AFFF. So if you can find a vendor that will supply you with 6% mix you will be way outside of the alcohol tolerance problem.
As a side note, the fire trucks at our airport mix the water and AFFF on the fly. If it is a grass or structure fire that they are fighting, they use straight water. If it is an aircraft fire they use 3% AFFF as specified by the FAA. (Aircraft NEVER use alcohol diluted fuel.) If it is a vehicle fire because of the possibility of E-10 being present they use the 6% AR-AFFF mix.
The second problem with AFFF or AR-AFFF is the possibility of freezing. Since the primary component of AFFF is water, it freezes quickly at just below 32 F. While it usually does not damage the extinguisher, it does cause the AFFF concentrate to separate from the water. (BTW, salt water also does this) When it thaws again you no longer get the expected 3% or 6% consistently through mixture.
Ansul states that a frozen extinguisher must be drained and the mixture must be "mechanically stirred" prior reloading again. They say just shaking it up again is not acceptable. We do have a local fire extinguisher company that has a paint shaker type device that they will put a loaded previously frozen AFFF type extinguisher in to mix it up again. I do not know as I have never had frozen one.
There are ways to get around the freezing problem. It turns out that AFFF concentrate can be mixed with ethylene glycol antifreeze and water. BUT......there is a limit. If the antifreeze is too concentrated then the foam becomes flammable. The maximum mixture only takes the freezing point down to +17 F. It turns out, and I did not realize it when we bought them years ago, that Kidde used this +17 degree mixture in the 80 or so extinguishers that we GMCers bought years ago. Unfortunately these were not marketed properly and Kidde dropped these in their small extinguisher line.
There is also a solution that will take the freezing point below 0 F. There are several companies offering a non-ethylene glycol low freezing point mixture. A steel mill near me with their own fire department uses this mixture for their outdoor extinguishers all over the mill. They reload their own AFFF extinguishers with this stuff. I know of no vendors offering extinguishers loaded with this stuff but it would be perfect for a parked outside RV in the northern US and Canada during the winter.
Now you know everything I know about this topic. I hope this helps you decide what to choose. Whatever you choose, it will probably be a compromise between what is available and what you think you really need.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313299 is a reply to message #313298] |
Thu, 16 February 2017 03:52 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ken,
Thanks for the kudos but it's NOT "my" document. As it notes up front I
merely compiled and organized information that may people submitted.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken
Burton
Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2017 8:10 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU
SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself
Rob Mueller's excellent document from 2013 accurately covers the pluses and
minuses of most common fire extinguishers types. Almost any type of
extinguisher will work when used under conditions that they are designed
for. That is where we come into a problem. What conditions are we most
likely to find in a motorhome.
I suggest that these are the most common areas listed in order of
probability:
1. A gasoline (fuel) fed fire in the engine area.
2. A lubricant (oil or trans fluid) fed fire in the engine or transmission
area.
3. A propane fed fire in the refrigerator, or furnace area.
4. A gasoline fed fire in the generator area.
5. A propane or grease started fie in the kitchen area.
6. An electrical started fire anywhere in the coach.
After I had a coach fire and fought it successfully about 10 years ago, I
decided to learn about the various fire possibilities and way to protect or
fight them in the future.
When I say "successfully" I am saying that I luckily put the fire out after
several attempts with what I had at hand. I did not have the best
extinguisher types available.
After the fire I still had State Farm pay me just under $10,000 to fix all
of the damage. I had more damage from using dry chemical extinguishers
that I did from the actual fire.
I, and several other GMCers, decided to learn as much as possible and to
spread what we learned to the GMC community. One of the participating
GMCers
was a full time fire fighter. Another major resource was our local airport
manager who is also a lieutenant with the fire department. He also
organized and ran a 2 week hands on fire fighter school for various fire
departments in a 150 mile radius of our airport. One other resource we had
is the owner of a local company of about 440 employees that makes fire
fighting equipment. He also is building a fire training tower for all
interested departments to use.
In summary here is what we learned by extinguisher type.
1. Halon and it's more modern substitutes gas types.
This type works well in closed environments (specifically rooms) and does
little if any damage to equipment in the treated areas. To it's detriment
the area treated (usually rooms) needs to be completely evacuated prior to
its deployment. When used in open areas, because it is heavier than air,
it quickly falls to bottom and away from the fire. So in areas around an
engine (where the bottom open) it needs to be applied from the top and needs
to be over applied so as to keep the top area flooded as it extinguishes the
lower areas an falls away. This is difficult to accomplish when an
engine is moving down the road or stopped running with the radiator fan
blowing in fresh air from the outside.
Note: In a past life I use to design and sell halon systems for large
computer, telephone, and industrial motor rooms.
2. CO2 is another gas extinguisher like Halon, but is also cools very
rapidly. While it also settles down like Halon, it also can damage whatever
it
touches if it is not applied judiciously. At one time I worked as an
electrician in a very large steel mill.
The company ran their own rebuild facility for motors and generators. So if
we had a motor or generator burn up it would be sent to the motor shop
for rebuild. Some of these motors were large enough that we would climb
inside them to clean insulators and check brushes etc. on a weekly basis.
We
were expressly FORBIDDEN to use CO2 on any motor or generator because it
could, and usually did, crystallize the metal components and frame so as to
make it no longer rebuildable. All of that said, I did use CO2 on my coach
when it caught fire and I still have one in my coach.
3. Dry Chemical fire extinguishers work well but the clean up and damage
can be extensive. Most dry chem extinguishers (except sodium bicarb) are
very caustic. I had problems removing the dry chemical after my fire. I
tried compress air first. Then pressure washing it with soap and water.
After that did not work well, I tried neutralizing it and cleaning it again.
In the end it corroded everything copper and brass and pitted steel
items like my headers. I had to replace every wire in the engine area and
in the front of radiator all the way to the head lights. I replaced ALL of
the engine accessories except the AC compressor and later had to replace the
compressor clutch. I spent more money on fixing dry chem damage than I
spent on actual fire damage. On top of that when I tried dry chem it would
put out the fire for 5 or 10 seconds and then reignite. I finally used
CO2 to extinguish the fire.
4. The last one I'll cover is AFFF. AFFF is my extinguisher of choice. In
its most common type it is 97% water and 3% concentrate. That is what
you will most commonly find. AFFF is my preferred extinguisher for all
around use in a GMC motorhome. It does an excellent job and does not leave
any residual damage.
AFFF has two negatives.
A. In it's normal mixture (3%) it does not like ethanol (polar solvents)
and will not sustain the foam when applied to a fire. It is approved for
the E-10 gasoline that a lot of us get today but it is right on the edge of
where it works. We have tried it with straight gasoline and with E-10.
When sprayed on an E-10 fire the foam dissipates much more quickly requiring
more AFFF to be applied. There is another product called AR-AFFF
(Alcohol Resistant-AFFF) that will work much better. The AFFF concentrate
that I use here comes from Ansul and is specified for use at both 3% and 6%
mixture. The 6% mix is AR-AFFF compliant while a 3% mix of the same stuff
is AFFF. So if you can find a vendor that will supply you with 6% mix you
will be way outside of the alcohol tolerance problem.
As a side note, the fire trucks at our airport mix the water and AFFF on the
fly. If it is a grass or structure fire that they are fighting, they use
straight water. If it is an aircraft fire they use 3% AFFF as specified by
the FAA. (Aircraft NEVER use alcohol diluted fuel.) If it is a vehicle
fire because of the possibility of E-10 being present they use the 6%
AR-AFFF mix.
The second problem with AFFF or AR-AFFF is the possibility of freezing.
Since the primary component of AFFF is water, it freezes quickly at just
below 32 F. While it usually does not damage the extinguisher, it does
cause the AFFF concentrate to separate from the water. (BTW, salt water
also
does this) When it thaws again you no longer get the expected 3% or 6%
consistently through mixture.
Ansul states that a frozen extinguisher must be drained and the mixture must
be "mechanically stirred" prior reloading again. They say just shaking
it up again is not acceptable. We do have a local fire extinguisher company
that has a paint shaker type device that they will put a loaded
previously frozen AFFF type extinguisher in to mix it up again. I do not
know as I have never had frozen one.
There are ways to get around the freezing problem. It turns out that AFFF
concentrate can be mixed with ethylene glycol antifreeze and water.
BUT......there is a limit. If the antifreeze is too concentrated then the
foam becomes flammable. The maximum mixture only takes the freezing point
down to +17 F. It turns out, and I did not realize it when we bought them
years ago, that Kidde used this +17 degree mixture in the 80 or so
extinguishers that we GMCers bought years ago. Unfortunately these were not
marketed properly and Kidde dropped these in their small extinguisher
line.
There is also a solution that will take the freezing point below 0 F. There
are several companies offering a non-ethylene glycol low freezing point
mixture. A steel mill near me with their own fire department uses this
mixture for their outdoor extinguishers all over the mill. They reload
their
own AFFF extinguishers with this stuff. I know of no vendors offering
extinguishers loaded with this stuff but it would be perfect for a parked
outside RV in the northern US and Canada during the winter.
Now you know everything I know about this topic. I hope this helps you
decide what to choose. Whatever you choose, it will probably be a
compromise
between what is available and what you think you really need.
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313301 is a reply to message #313299] |
Thu, 16 February 2017 05:38 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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USAussie wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 03:52Ken,
Thanks for the kudos but it's NOT "my" document. As it notes up front I
merely compiled and organized information that may people submitted.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
If you put it together and posted it, it is your document.
Sorry. You own it now.
What do you know about hot water (boiler) heating systems. I just spent 5 hours getting a house heating system going temporarily for a guy who is not all here. Alzhimers? I do not know.
I'm going to have to go back and fix it correctly in a day or two once I figure how it is suppose to work.
Anyway I cruising the internet for a primer or something.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313327 is a reply to message #313322] |
Thu, 16 February 2017 12:24 |
Kimberlea Weeks
Messages: 675
Registered: July 2010
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim...sorry you will not be with us in Shawnee, but commend you on your
efforts in Vietnam.
We are very pleased to have "Mac the Fire Guy" at the Vintage Motorhomes
Celebration. He is extremely informational and the demonstration is
something to see. I have heard him more than once, but I always learn
something new (or I finally remember it) each time. See you all in Shawnee!
kim
*Thank you for being a member and supporting the GMC Motorhome lifestyle.*
*Kimberlea Weeks*
VP Administration and Convention Manager
612.501.4600 | f.866.519.0047 | www.gmcmi.com
*GMC Motorhomes International*
1402 So. Cage Blvd | Unit 273 | Pharr | TX 78577-6288
*We invite you to join us at all of our events!*
*"A Vintage Motorhomes Celebration"*
*Registration is open, register today!*
Friday, March 24 to Thursday, March 30, 2017
Heart of Oklahoma Exposition Center, Shawnee, Oklahoma
*GMCMI 35th Anniversary – 2017 Fall Convention*
Friday, September 15 to Thursday, September 21, 2017
Elkhart Campground, Elkhart, Indiana
*2018 GMCMI Spring Convention*
Friday, April 6 to Thursday, April 12, 2018
Tucson Lazydays KOA, Tucson, AZ
On Thu, Feb 16, 2017 at 11:33 AM, Jim Galbavy wrote:
> Kim,
>
> We are glad to hear that Mac will be there. He gave a great demo / class
> at Dothan
> hope the community will take the time and watch. Sorry that I can't make
> the rally,
> but I'll be en route home from the Central Highlands of Vietnam helping a
> Nam Vet group
> setting up medical clinics and teaching Wilderness First Aid.
>
> jim Galbavy
> '73 x-CL ANNIE
> Lake Mary, Fl
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313341 is a reply to message #313301] |
Thu, 16 February 2017 15:31 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Ken- those heating systems are all about getting the air out. that can be a challenge and there can be small leaks that suck in air.
A GMC community has good resourses, Call up John Nepper out of Omaha(his number is on the black list), ask him for the number of his friend from Thief River Falls that always joins John at the Midwest GMC rallys. He is an expert in those heating system, he maintains multitude of rental houses in Thief River falls that are heated that way. I remember that from our conversations, and he will offer knowledge.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: [GMCnet] Have you checked your Fire Extingwisher lately? YOU SHOULD if you love your spouse and yourself [message #313348 is a reply to message #313306] |
Thu, 16 February 2017 18:51 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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Matt Colie wrote on Thu, 16 February 2017 07:50Ken,
We should ask JimB or Mac what about freezing the hand helds that they sell.
I will call you about boilers in a bit.
Matt
Those little spray cans are made (I should say bottled or canned) by a company in Jacksonville if I remember correctly. I knew their name at one time.
I have several of them around here with different names on them. A vendor / seller can order them with is own private label. One of the units ones that I have from them says "DO NOT FREEZE" on the label. I do not know how thick those containers are. I hope they are thicker than a Pepsi can which many times ruptures if frozen solid.
If they do freeze and do not rupture they will still suffer from the separation problem. So if you do freeze one without breaking it, I would be shaking it very vigorously for a while after it thaws. I have one of those in each of my vehicles. I take them out and store them inside during the winter.
Matt, Thank you very much for the telephone help today.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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