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NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311111]

Wed, 30 November 2016 11:03

JShot

Messages: 485
Registered: October 2006
Location: NW Ohio

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Three strings of LED lights. Each plugged into a separate outside, weather protected duplex outlet.

All three outlets are on the same circuit, and are activated by a wall switch inside the house.

When on, all strings light up normally. When off, all three strings still light up, but at about 30% of normal.

Opinions???

TIA,
John

John Shotwell
Ridgeville Corners, OH
78 Royale Center Kitchen

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311112 is a reply to message #311111]

Wed, 30 November 2016 11:14

Hal StClair

Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM

Karma: -12

Senior Member

Bad switch letting a small amount of current through. Might possibly have a wiring issue with a neutral loose somewhere and getting a back feed too.
Hal

"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane." 1977 Royale 101348, 1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered, 1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout, Rio Rancho, NM

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311113 is a reply to message #311111]

Wed, 30 November 2016 11:14

tphipps

Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Bad outlet/switch wiring. Perhaps wrong leg on switch (black white crossover).
Tom, MS II

2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311116 is a reply to message #311111]

Wed, 30 November 2016 11:34

C Boyd

Messages: 2629
Registered: April 2006

Karma: 18

Senior Member

RUN JOHN.... RUN...

JShot wrote on Wed, 30 November 2016 12:03

Three strings of LED lights. Each plugged into a separate outside, weather protected duplex outlet.

All three outlets are on the same circuit, and are activated by a wall switch inside the house.

When on, all strings light up normally. When off, all three strings still light up, but at about 30% of normal.

Opinions???

TIA,
John

C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311118 is a reply to message #311111]

Wed, 30 November 2016 12:44

SeanKidd

Messages: 747
Registered: June 2012
Location: Northern Neck Virginia

Karma: 4

Senior Member

This is very common,most LEDs will operate at very low voltages, through capacitive discharge, inductive coupling from an adjacent circuit, or unbalanced neutral. This also occurs frequently on 3-Way circuits for the same reason...

Sean and Stephanie
73 Ex-CanyonLands 26' #317 "Oliver"
Hubler 1-Ton, Quad-Bags, Rear Disc, Reaction Arms, P.Huber TBs, 3.70:1 LSD Honda 6500 inverter gen.
Colonial Travelers

[Updated on: Wed, 30 November 2016 12:44]

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311119 is a reply to message #311111]

Wed, 30 November 2016 12:46

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

Plug in a regular incandescent light into the same outlet and see if the LED's go out.

Depending on the design of the switch and how the wiring is run, stray capacitance can couple enough current to light the LED's. The incandescent bulb with provide a path to drain off this current if you really want them OFF.

You should only see the LED's "glow" from this at night. So you have a bright and dim setting instead Cool

Cool

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311126 is a reply to message #311111]

Wed, 30 November 2016 16:41

JShot

Messages: 485
Registered: October 2006
Location: NW Ohio

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Thanks for the ideas! I'll kill the circuit tomorrow and pull the switch and outlets to check their wiring. The house was built in 1971, and they ran 12-2 with ground to ALL of the duplex outlets (83 of them), BUT used ungrounded outlets. That's right - no ground hole, and the bare ground was just loose in the boxes.

When we moved in, I replaced all of the outlets with grounded ones, and put in all new switches. But I may have missed the outlets on the front porch Embarassed

Embarassed

We'll see tomorrow.

Thanks again,
John

John Shotwell
Ridgeville Corners, OH
78 Royale Center Kitchen

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311148 is a reply to message #311111]

Thu, 01 December 2016 08:09

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

I suggest that you plug a 3 light 120 volt tester into the socket and see what it reads.

http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/Ideal-61-501-GFI-Receptacle-Tester/536868

https://www.walmart.com/ip/MARINCO-GFI6302-Circuit-Tester-Light-Indicator-0-To-120-Volt-Ac/47845262

Choose whatever brand and source you like. They are usually around $7.00

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311156 is a reply to message #311148]

Thu, 01 December 2016 09:40

JShot

Messages: 485
Registered: October 2006
Location: NW Ohio

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Good idea also, Ken. I've got a couple of those from years ago.

John

John Shotwell
Ridgeville Corners, OH
78 Royale Center Kitchen

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311157 is a reply to message #311111]

Thu, 01 December 2016 11:18

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

Homer the Despot has them for $4.91. Cheap at twice that.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311183 is a reply to message #311126]

Fri, 02 December 2016 10:07

TR 1

Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW

Karma: -7

Senior Member

JShot wrote on Wed, 30 November 2016 16:41

Thanks for the ideas! I'll kill the circuit tomorrow and pull the switch and outlets to check their wiring. The house was built in 1971, and they ran 12-2 with ground to ALL of the duplex outlets (83 of them), BUT used ungrounded outlets. That's right - no ground hole, and the bare ground was just loose in the boxes.

When we moved in, I replaced all of the outlets with grounded ones, and put in all new switches. But I may have missed the outlets on the front porch

We'll see tomorrow.

Thanks again,
John

Built in 71, having an odd electrical issue and wired with 12awg wire? Make sure your house is not wired with aluminum wire... Was common around that time, and due to a myriad of factors is a fire hazard. If your house is wired with aluminum, you should very soon consider rewiring the house or there is a procedure to "re-terminate" the aluminum with copper...

Aluminum household wiring is a ticking time bomb...

Mark S. '73 Painted Desert, Manny 1 Ton Front End, Howell Injection, Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes, Fort Worth, TX

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311184 is a reply to message #311183]

Fri, 02 December 2016 10:16

TR 1

Messages: 348
Registered: August 2015
Location: DFW

Karma: -7

Senior Member

TR 1 wrote on Fri, 02 December 2016 10:07

JShot wrote on Wed, 30 November 2016 16:41
Thanks for the ideas! I'll kill the circuit tomorrow and pull the switch and outlets to check their wiring. The house was built in 1971, and they ran 12-2 with ground to ALL of the duplex outlets (83 of them), BUT used ungrounded outlets. That's right - no ground hole, and the bare ground was just loose in the boxes.

When we moved in, I replaced all of the outlets with grounded ones, and put in all new switches. But I may have missed the outlets on the front porch

We'll see tomorrow.

Thanks again,
John

Built in 71, having an odd electrical issue and wired with 12awg wire? Make sure your house is not wired with aluminum wire... Was common around that time, and due to a myriad of factors is a fire hazard. If your house is wired with aluminum, you should very soon consider rewiring the house or there is a procedure to "re-terminate" the aluminum with copper...

Aluminum household wiring is a ticking time bomb...

Significance of mentioning 12awg in my post above is that 12awg aluminum is needed to support a standard 15 amp circuit... This would normally be 14awg if using copper...

Mark S. '73 Painted Desert, Manny 1 Ton Front End, Howell Injection, Leigh Harrison 4bag and Rear Brakes, Fort Worth, TX

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311188 is a reply to message #311111]

Fri, 02 December 2016 11:00

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

When she and I had our first house built, I saw what was going on in the subdivision, and took the electrician a 250' roll of copper 12/2 and ground. Two houses in the subdivision have burned, the others have all been rewired. Mine's going strong after 45 years, according to the current owner. Interesting trivia - the house was built using old bricks from the death house at Kilby Prison in Montgomery. More than one con 'rode the lightning' inside them.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311197 is a reply to message #311184]

Fri, 02 December 2016 19:28

JShot

Messages: 485
Registered: October 2006
Location: NW Ohio

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Yes, I agree with you about the AL wire. One of the 1st things I thought about and checked when we bought the house. It's true copper.
I checked the three outlets with the hand held three light tester, and all three checked correctly. I also found out (and remembered) that I had replaced all of the outside outlets with GFCI devices. Would that cause the dimming of the LED light strings?
Have to check the wall switch tomorrow.
John

John Shotwell
Ridgeville Corners, OH
78 Royale Center Kitchen

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311200 is a reply to message #311156]

Fri, 02 December 2016 22:10

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

Well there goes that idea.

Is the wall switch by chance switching the neutral side rather than the hot side of the circuit?

I do not see how the GFI could be causing your problem, but I have been wrong more than once.

You have an induced voltage or a leak somewhere. What would be interesting is to see what the voltage is at the receiptical while the lights are glowing. Also to see what happens to that voltage if you plug a normal 5, 25, or 40 watt incandescent lamp into the GFI.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311201 is a reply to message #311111]

Fri, 02 December 2016 23:07

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

John,
An LED will light dimly with only micro-amps of current. The way the house is wired, it may have the conductors from the switch running in parallel for many feet. Capacitance and inductance can couple enough current to dimly light the LED. Google it!

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311202 is a reply to message #311111]

Fri, 02 December 2016 23:14

RF_Burns

Messages: 2277
Registered: June 2008
Location: S. Ontario, Canada

Karma: 3

Senior Member

John,
Open the outlet box and wire a 100K ohm resistor across the hot and neutral connections of the outlet. The resistor will provide a return path for the leakage current.

Bruce Hislop
ON Canada
77PB, 455 Dick P. rebuilt, DynamicEFI EBL EFI & ESC.
1 ton front end
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showphoto.php?photo=29001
My Staff says I never listen to them, or something like that

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311203 is a reply to message #311202]

Sat, 03 December 2016 06:22

tphipps

Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL

Karma: 9

Senior Member

John, Are you saying that you replaced all the outside outlets with GFI outlets? GFI outlet should be on the end of the string only. I did this once and it caused crazy electrical operation. Changing back to only one cured the problem.
Tom, MS II

2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311257 is a reply to message #311126]

Mon, 05 December 2016 08:39

stick miller

Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia

Karma: 0

Senior Member

JShot wrote on Wed, 30 November 2016 17:41

Thanks for the ideas! I'll kill the circuit tomorrow and pull the switch and outlets to check their wiring. The house was built in 1971, and they ran 12-2 with ground to ALL of the duplex outlets (83 of them), BUT used ungrounded outlets. That's right - no ground hole, and the bare ground was just loose in the boxes.

When we moved in, I replaced all of the outlets with grounded ones, and put in all new switches. But I may have missed the outlets on the front porch

We'll see tomorrow.

Thanks again,
John

John - you're better off than I am. My house, built in 1910, had no grounded outlets when we moved in. After upgrading the service to 200A, that still left me with many unusable 2 hole plugs. I've replaced all the 2 holers with 3 holers, but nary a ground in the front part of the house.(Kitchen was completely rewired while the plaster was down). I guess we've ben lucky with no failures or problems in almost 13 years.

Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA

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Re: NON GMC - Electrical Question [message #311265 is a reply to message #311111]

Mon, 05 December 2016 10:51

jhbridges

Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga

Karma: -74

Senior Member

Our original Georgia house, built in 1901 and razed fopr the highway several years ago, had tube and post wiring. Which, I was told, was still legal. But since it was groundless, and I didn't want uit under insulation in the attic, I replaced everything with 12-2/G and 14-2/G in the crawl space and put the grounds in for the plugholes.

--johnny

Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell

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