Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » 403 diesel (???)
| 403 diesel [message #310471] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 11:01  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least an intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403 diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap yard...if you can find them.
Just wondering.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310472 is a reply to message #310471] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 11:20  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Kerry, There are not very many 350 Diesels left in the scrap yards. 1. They
were part of the Cash for Clunkers Recall and destroy, that involved
putting isinglass in the crankcase and running them until they froze up
tight. 2. They were absolute crap as an engine. They broke main bearing
webs and connecting rods. They were recalled and replaced at an
unprecedented rate by the factory, but, some of them ran a long time
without much in the way of repairs. I had one in a K5 Chevrolet Blazer. It
had two replacement Diesels before I switched it over to a 4 bolt main 350
gasoline engine. The diesel blocks (JH and later) made a heck of a swell
conversion gasoline engine, and the camshaft blanks are in high demand for
the regrind trade. They were billet steel. They will wear out a stock
distributor gear in a thousand miles though. I never had any thoughts about
making a larger diesel out of one. Interesting concept. If they were as
durable as the 6.5 Duramax, they might have some value.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:01 AM, Kerry Pinkerton
wrote:
> Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had
> one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least an
> intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will
> interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403
> diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and
> such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap
> yard...if you can find them.
>
> Just wondering.
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
>
> 77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum
> goodies.
>
> http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/
>
> '03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: 403 diesel [message #310479 is a reply to message #310471] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 13:17 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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The 350 Olds Diesel wasn't so much a bad idea as bad marketing. People were given the impression it would perform the same as a gasoline engine. Wrong. If you took an 88 with a 350 gas engine in it and treated it the way most people treated the Diesel (Floor it at every start, hold it floored to highway speed, floor it ever pass, etc) it wouldn't hold up either. We ran the one my brother had - which he stole because the PO was scared of the reputation) for just at half a million miles. Cruise the freeway at 75 all day long doing 22MPG on cheeeep fuel with five friends comfortably. But, it took a mile or three to get up to speed. The cruise control hunted badly until I found one off another diesel in a junkyard and replaced the original. All we could figure was the first one was a gas engine control. Looked the same, but the one off the junker got into the gas sooner and deeper on hills, which reduced the hunting drastically. Give it half throttle off a light and wait... and it lasted six forevers.
GM managed to discredit automotive Diesels for decades with them.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310482 is a reply to message #310471] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 14:22 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Kerry,
Check this article out:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a6599/top-automotive-engineering-failures-oldsmobile-diesels/
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 4:02 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] 403 diesel
Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that
share at least an
intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible
to make a 403
diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high
demand in the scrap
yard...if you can find them.
Just wondering.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.
http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/
'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310494 is a reply to message #310493] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 17:06 |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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My father has one in an Olds sedan. After two sets of head replacements, he put in a 350 gas engine.
However, the engine soldiered on in the CUCV. Survived much soldier abuse. Can find these engines occasionally. One was on Craig's List, in New Orleans, complete with the military shipping crate.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310500 is a reply to message #310499] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 17:21 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Trust me, when one of those engines develops a knock, you won't have any
trouble hearing it. They pull head bolts right out of the block, blow head
gaskets, fill the cylinders full of antifreeze, hydraulic lock the engine,
break crankshaft and rods, you name it.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Nov 17, 2016 3:15 PM, "Kingsley Coach" wrote:
> Developed a knock? How would he know?
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 PM, A. wrote:
>
>> I have a 1981 Cutlass diesel that has been parked in the pasture for over
>> 20 years. It had over 100k miles on it when it developed a knock when my
>> brother was driving it sometime between 1992 and 1995. If anyone wants
> it,
>> come and get it. The VA title got lost in the dozen plus times I have
> moved
>> since 1992. If you have a 16" hub centered rim that will fit the GMC, we
>> can call it a trade.
>> --
>> 73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
>> 73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
>> Upper Alabama
>> "Highest price does not guarantee highest quality."
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Beaton
> 1977 Kingsley 26-11
> 1977 Eleganza II 26-3
> Antigonish, NS
>
> Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310504 is a reply to message #310471] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 18:29 |
Len Novak
Messages: 676
Registered: February 2004
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Karma: -3
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We had one here last time I was in the junk yard
Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Fallbrook, CA new email: B52Rule@Roadrunner.Com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerry
Pinkerton
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:02 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] 403 diesel
Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one
iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least an
intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will
interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403
diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and
such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap
yard...if you can find them.
Just wondering.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum
goodies.
http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/
'03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Len and Pat Novak
1978 GMC Kingsley
The Beast II with dash lights that work and labels you can see!
Las Vegas, NV new email: B52sRule@Gmail.com
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/showgallery.php?cat=4375
www.bdub.net/novak/
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| Re: 403 diesel [message #310505 is a reply to message #310471] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 18:42 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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back to the hypothetical. IF someone wanted to, what would it take to make a 403 into a diesel? What kind of torque did the 350 make, ie the torque curve. I don't recall if the 403 is a 4 bolt or 2? What is different in the long block?
Mind you, I'm not a bit interested in doing this but something made me wonder if it was doable.
My car hauler GMC will have a Cad 500 if I ever get down to Americus to pick it up.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310508 is a reply to message #310494] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 18:56 |
bobby5832708
Messages: 237
Registered: November 2006
Location: Winter Springs FL
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Tom,
According to Wikipedia The CUCV did NOT use the Olds diesel. It used the 6.2.
The Olds diesel couldn't even stand up to normal grandpa driving (I had 2 neighbors who had them back in the day, one was an 80+ grandpa) so there's no way they would pass any kind of durability tests for military hardware (in my opinion).
Wiki:
"All CUCV Is were powered by GM's 6.2L J-series Detroit Diesel V8 engine non-emissions diesel.[6] These were rated at 155 hp (116 kW) and 240 lb·ft (325 N·m), which was 5 hp (3.7 kW) more than the emissions diesel engine of the time."
Johnny,
Back in the early 1980's I got to drive my neighbors 1979 Cutlass 350 diesel a few times. You HAD to floor the pedal often just to drive in daily Metro NY/NJ traffic. I'm not positive but I think the Chevette (another quality GM product) gasser of the day accelerated better.
GMC content: There's no way I would even consider an Olds diesel for my GMC. Maybe Manny's diesel conversion if the price was right, but absolutely positively no Olds diesel no matter what size or year.
Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310509 is a reply to message #310500] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 19:07 |
Hal StClair
Messages: 971
Registered: March 2013
Location: Rio Rancho NM
Karma: -12
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Senior Member |
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The fuel filtering issue was a self inflicted problem for GM. They went to Racor pre-production looking for a water separator/filter but the design Racor came up with was more then the bean counters at GM would accept so....
To bad it worked out as it did. And now with VW's help it looks like diesels will be hit again. It really hurts for a died in the wool diesel guy,
Hal
"I enjoy talking to you. Your mind appeals to me. It resembles my own mind, except you happen to be insane."
1977 Royale 101348,
1977 Royale 101586, Diesel powered,
1974 Eagle Bus 45',w/slideout,
Rio Rancho, NM
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310510 is a reply to message #310505] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 18:58 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Kerry,
The problem is in the heads, Olds retained the 4 bolts around each cylinder and that was a weak link. It should have been 5 to
withstand the additional compression of a diesel! You would have to make a pattern for the block and a pattern for the heads that
would take 5 bolts.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kerry Pinkerton
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 11:42 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel
back to the hypothetical. IF someone wanted to, what would it take to make a 403 into a diesel? What kind of torque did the 350
make, ie the torque curve. I don't recall if the 403 is a 4 bolt or 2? What is different in the long block?
Mind you, I'm not a bit interested in doing this but something made me wonder if it was doable.
My car hauler GMC will have a Cad 500 if I ever get down to Americus to pick it up.
--
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum goodies.
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: 403 diesel [message #310524 is a reply to message #310471] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 22:47 |
Adrien G.
Messages: 474
Registered: May 2008
Location: Burns Flat, OK 73624
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I had an '80 Cutlass Supreme with that famous 350 Diesel, a gutless wander. The GM engineers light bulb was not very bright on this engine.
After 3 head gaskets I pulled the engine to surface the block and heads, made it into a 4 bolt main, reduced compression to about 20 to 1 (to reduce the gasket blow out problem), and used head studs.
The lower end never gave me problems, but after 10 more blown head gaskets (all on right bank between 4&6), I gave up. The block would make into a good strong gas engine.
Thinking back, I should have kept quiet and gotten a gas 350 to put in it, being a diesel I had no smog check to deal with.
The car was in good shape inside and out.
kerry pinkerton wrote on Thu, 17 November 2016 09:01Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that share at least an intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be possible to make a 403 diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high demand in the scrap yard...if you can find them.
Just wondering.
Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook (26-3) Mods LS3.70 FD / Reaction Sys / 80mm Front&Intermidiate / Hydroboost / 16" Tires / Frame Rebuild / Interior Rebuild
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6
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| Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel [message #310526 is a reply to message #310524] |
Thu, 17 November 2016 23:20 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Adrien,
Your experience directly correlates with the information in the link in my previous response, Olds stayed with four bolts around
each cylinder when it should have been five!
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
USA '77 Kingsley - TZE 267V100808
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Adrien Genesoto
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 3:48 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] 403 diesel
I had an '80 Cutlass Supreme with that famous 350 Diesel, a gutless wander. The GM engineers light bulb was not very bright on this
engine.
After 3 head gaskets I pulled the engine to surface the block and heads, made it into a 4 bolt main, reduced compression to about 20
to 1 (to reduce
the gasket blow out problem), and used head studs.
The lower end never gave me problems, but after 10 more blown head gaskets (all on right bank between 4&6), I gave up. The block
would make into a
good strong gas engine.
Thinking back, I should have kept quiet and gotten a gas 350 to put in it, being a diesel I had no smog check to deal with.
The car was in good shape inside and out.
kerry pinkerton wrote on Thu, 17 November 2016 09:01
> Ok, here is a hypothetical. Olds made a 350 diesel right? My uncle had one iirc. The 350 and the 403 are both small blocks that
share at least
> an intake manifold. Since the intakes interchange, perhaps the heads will interchange? If that is the case, would it not be
possible to make a 403
> diesel? Probably need new pistons and a 350 diesel for the controls and such but I can't believe that 350 diesels are in high
demand in the scrap
> yard...if you can find them.
>
> Just wondering.
--
"When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided."
Adrien & Jenny Genesoto
75 Glenbrook 26-3
Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: 403 diesel [message #310535 is a reply to message #310471] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 08:22 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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The one Brother had was a Delta 88 from some time in the late 70s. It had a water separator which the PO said 'came in it', I later found out that by that time the Montgomery dealer was fitting all new Diesels with an aftermarket separator. This was the same brother who got 130K miles out of a Vega before it rusted so much the rear window fell out of the hatch. Cheap doesn't begin to describe.
All this said, I suspect trying to modify a 403 - or any gasoline engine - into a Diesel is a Thoroughly Bad Idea. Too many differences in the way they make power. I'll point out, over the years I've completely worn out three VW Diesels and ruined a fourth from water ingestion. I like Diesels for the most part.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
[Updated on: Fri, 18 November 2016 08:23] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: 403 diesel [message #310539 is a reply to message #310535] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 09:29 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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OK, Matt the diesel engineer is here.
There has been a lot written here that was true and a lot that was only close.
The Olds diesel program was pushed on Oldsmobile in Lansing by GM management in Warren without applying any pressure on Detroit Diesel in Redford to provide assistance. This is exactly why the 350D and the 6.2 are as different as night as day.
On basic engineering data diesel and SI engines do not look that different. The power output of a similar displacement diesel will be less (when naturally aspirated) because diesels are all smoke limited. The cylinder pressures as BMEP are often actually about the same at the peak torques. But what happens in the real world is an eye opener. The actual peak cylinder pressures when measured in real time and be two or even three times higher than those of a similar SI.
Line items.
- It is not that there there were only 4 headbolts per cylinder, there are many successful diesels with this count. The problem was that the fasteners were not capable at the required clamp load. Olds went and upgraded that fastener part number to a higher and non-SAE standard and that problem and the related headgasket failure issue dropped. But that also introduced two new problems. This now became the first known production engine to fail the cylinder head fasteners (bolts) in service. The only saving grace being that if this was discovered early (because of the coolant leakage), that fastener could be replaced and the vehicle returned to service.
- The early blocks were not capable. Again, it was not the lack of a 4-bolt main, but just a plain and simple lack of structure. Yes, they did break webs. This was corrected in the later versions.
- The early connecting rods were also an issue that few knew about. It was not uncommon on a full inspection tear-down to find that all the connecting rods were all now short, bent and twisted. This was also a subject that was later corrected.
- The specific fuel injection pump for this engine was another farce that was played on Oldsmobile by Standadyne. The Roosamaster pump was supposed to not need any lift pump or priming pump once it was in service. It also turned out to have real big delivery issues at cranking speeds. This would show up any time an owner tried to start it with a low battery. The lack of a real lift pump and priming pump became serious if the engine ever went down on fuel. (It was rumored that some actually got scrapped by this.) Some were built with a fuel system that had no return. They always had the dead-end injectors, and that could cause its own issues (until the part was revised) but the lack of a vent return from the injection pump made it intolerant of any air in the fuel system at all.
- That brings up another fuel issue that was spoken of in the thread and completely true. The only filter included in the original design was the little 5h1t cartridge also by Standadyne. There was no water trap and no means to drain it. This was a result of the NHSTA fuel leakage on crash rules. It is why some diesel passcars have fuel filters in strange places or they are "armored".
If your eyes haven't glazed over yet, I could go on a while longer, but these were the biggest issues. Yes, Olds engineers did correct them in the later builds, but by then the Olds diesel had been relegated to trash bin along side the Vega.
It's is a beautiful fall morning here and I have places to go and people to annoy. I am real ready for the Saturday Lunch Bunch.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: 403 diesel [message #310541 is a reply to message #310471] |
Fri, 18 November 2016 09:53 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Matt. That certainly clears up any further questions about that.
On another note, I owned two Vegas and thought they were great little cars. One was a GT 4 speed that handled better than my MGB and ran like stink. The other was an iron block auto that also was a fine little car. Not being in the rust belt probably helps my opinion.
On yet another note, there is a Cogsworth Vega in the area that is the terror of the street racing guys. He's reportedly embarrassed a lot of high dollar imports.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Fri, 18 November 2016 09:54] Report message to a moderator |
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