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Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302742] Mon, 27 June 2016 23:58 Go to next message
SteveW is currently offline  SteveW   United States
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Greetings - and Thank You in advance for your answers, comments, and suggestions.

One of the early upgrades I made to my coach was elimination of the buzz box and replacement with a Progressive Dynamics PD60. All good.

The PD60 is plugged into a 12VAC receptacle in the electrical cabinet. I've always thought that while running my generator (Onan 4K) - the PD60 was powered up and charging the (house) batteries. (The factory isolator is still connected as is a Yadina combiner - per Gene Fisher's circuit diagrams.)

I visited the coach at the storage yard this evening and started the generator and the engine as I do about once a week. After the engine came to temperature - I shut it down and had just the generator running. Everything looked just fine... 14V or so on the house 12V circuits - indicating that some charging was taking place. I don't know why - but something possessed me to unplug the PD60 and see what would be affected... Surprise !! Still 14V or so on the house circuits.

So... it occurred to me that the Onan Flywheel Alternator is still connected and putting out DC voltage !

A couple of questions arise:

My gut tells me that the PD60 is a better battery charger than the flywheel alternator... correct ??

When running the Onan with the PD60 plugged in - who's charging the batteries - flywheel or PD60 or both ??

If it's both - I'm really not getting the advantage of the PD60 battery charging intelligence am I ??

Did anything get damaged while running both ??

Which is preferable ?

It's pretty common for me to drive with the Onan running and the rooftop AC blowing...

Steve W
1973 23'
Southern California






Steve W 1973 : 23' Southern California

[Updated on: Tue, 28 June 2016 01:00]

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Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302744 is a reply to message #302742] Tue, 28 June 2016 00:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SteveW is currently offline  SteveW   United States
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I just found the related thread - "Onan Run Voltage"

Lots of good info there... Should have searched before posting Sad

More info:

I do not have a dedicated Onan battery.

Two 12V batteries are stuffed into the space previously occupied by the dedicated battery - and they're house batteries - in parallel with one more up front.

Total - three house batteries and one chassis battery.

Steve W


Steve W 1973 : 23' Southern California
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302745 is a reply to message #302744] Tue, 28 June 2016 05:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tphipps is currently offline  tphipps   United States
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I think you should disconnect the Onan 12v charging line from the house battery. The PD should be able to do all battery charging. The Onan charger has no modern charging control to reduce output to the batteries. Sounds like the PD is permanently connected to 110 in and 12 v out. Let it manage your battery charging.
Tom, MS II


2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG
Re: [GMCnet] Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302746 is a reply to message #302744] Tue, 28 June 2016 07:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jimk is currently offline  jimk   United States
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Steve,
the late Duane Simmons showed us that it is better to dis connect the
generator alternator as it tends to create problems with runnning the
generator.

On Mon, Jun 27, 2016 at 10:36 PM, Steve Weinstock
wrote:

> I just found the related thread - "Onan Run Voltage"
>
> Lots of good info there... Should have searched before posting :(
>
> More info:
>
> I do not have a dedicated Onan battery.
>
> Two 12V batteries are stuffed into the space previously occupied by the
> dedicated battery - and they're house batteries - in parallel with one more
> up
> front.
>
> Total - three house batteries and one chassis battery.
>
> Steve W
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>



--
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302748 is a reply to message #302745] Tue, 28 June 2016 08:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emerystora is currently offline  emerystora   United States
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I don't know about the PD but when I installed a Xantrex Statpower several years ago I found that it's electronics would detect a charge from another source and it would not output a charge if there was another source. So, if the Onan was running the only charge provided would be from the small Onan charger and not the 40 amps from the Xantrex. I solved this problem by removing the Onan charger.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

> On Jun 28, 2016, at 4:27 AM, Thomas Phipps wrote:
>
> I think you should disconnect the Onan 12v charging line from the house battery. The PD should be able to do all battery charging. The Onan charger
> has no modern charging control to reduce output to the batteries. Sounds like the PD is permanently connected to 110 in and 12 v out. Let it manage
> your battery charging.
> Tom, MS II
> --
> 1975 GMC Avion
> KA4CSG
>
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Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302753 is a reply to message #302742] Tue, 28 June 2016 10:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Steve,
My answers are in-line and Blue

SteveW wrote on Tue, 28 June 2016 00:58
Greetings - and Thank You in advance for your answers, comments, and suggestions.

One of the early upgrades I made to my coach was elimination of the buzz box and replacement with a Progressive Dynamics PD60. All good.

The PD60 is plugged into a 12VAC receptacle in the electrical cabinet. I've always thought that while running my generator (Onan 4K) - the PD60 was powered up and charging the (house) batteries. (The factory isolator is still connected as is a Yadina combiner - per Gene Fisher's circuit diagrams.)

I visited the coach at the storage yard this evening and started the generator and the engine as I do about once a week. After the engine came to temperature - I shut it down and had just the generator running. Everything looked just fine... 14V or so on the house 12V circuits - indicating that some charging was taking place. I don't know why - but something possessed me to unplug the PD60 and see what would be affected... Surprise !! Still 14V or so on the house circuits.
If there was no load on the house circuits, they were still trying to circulate the electrolyte and make use of the 14.2 charge voltage of the PD.

So... it occurred to me that the Onan Flywheel Alternator is still connected and putting out DC voltage !
If you have a box-stock 73-23, the Onan charger is not connected to the house bank and only does a half hearted job of keeping up the dedicated battery in the back.

A couple of questions arise:

My gut tells me that the PD60 is a better battery charger than the flywheel alternator... correct ??
That is Correct.

When running the Onan with the PD60 plugged in - who's charging the batteries - flywheel or PD60 or both ??
The flywheel alternator can only contribute a few amps at best, but it won't upset the PD9260.

If it's both - I'm really not getting the advantage of the PD60 battery charging intelligence am I ??
You will have to run the generator more than about 4 hours before the PD will start to think about backing off, so don't worry about it. More down the page.

Did anything get damaged while running both ??
Not likely.

Which is preferable ?
The PD will do you more good in lots of ways.

It's pretty common for me to drive with the Onan running and the rooftop AC blowing...
You and more than a few others.

Steve W
1973 23'
Southern California


Answers to the other indirect questions:
If your coach has been modified to not use the back battery for the Onan, then the little charge that the regulator does is a waste of time.

I have these regulators on several machines. Of the four, five have failed. The worst failure was on the coach where the damn thing went leaky and kept killing the Onan's start battery. I want you to think that I found that one right away.

If you are using the rear battery, you need some means to put power to it while the Onan is running to make up for the ignition and fuel pump load.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302755 is a reply to message #302742] Tue, 28 June 2016 11:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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If a PO did not disconnect the Onan voltage regulator, it is still trying to charge the house battery bank. The Onan voltage regulator charge is wired to Pin 5 on the Onan board. Pin 5 goes through a fuse to pin 11 which is a direct line to the start battery. In your case, the house battery bank.

If the Onan voltage regulator is still connected, there's going to be 13.6V or so coming from it. If the Onan start battery is now the house bank, and charging off the PD60, you don't need the Onan voltage regulator in the picture. To disconnect it, do this:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/data/3619/medium/ONAN_REGULATOR.jpg
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302756 is a reply to message #302742] Tue, 28 June 2016 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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SteveW wrote on Mon, 27 June 2016 23:58
So... it occurred to me that the Onan Flywheel Alternator is still connected and putting out DC voltage!
correctQuote:
A couple of questions arise:
My gut tells me that the PD60 is a better battery charger than the flywheel alternator... correct ??
correctQuote:
When running the Onan with the PD60 plugged in - who's charging the batteries - flywheel or PD60 or both??
"Both". Sort of. Whichever is putting out the higher voltage will be pushing the most current.Quote:
If it's both - I'm really not getting the advantage of the PD60 battery charging intelligence am I??
You probably are. The PD will run anytime it is plugged into shore power, so the house battery bank will get full benefit from it then.Quote:
Did anything get damaged while running both ??
Apparently not.Quote:
Which is preferable?
PD60.Quote:
It's pretty common for me to drive with the Onan running and the rooftop AC blowing...
you probably want to disconnect the Onan voltage regulator. See my previous post.
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302759 is a reply to message #302742] Tue, 28 June 2016 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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The important thing is to read and follow Duane's instructions. The two'fer needs to stay connecting the 2 terminals taped up but be off of the regulator. Disconnecting and taping the other wire prevents the parasitic drain possibility.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302763 is a reply to message #302742] Tue, 28 June 2016 13:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SteveW is currently offline  SteveW   United States
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THANK YOU All !!

I'll disconnect the flywheel alternator at the voltage regulater per Duane's instructions...

All good,

Steve W
1973 23;
Southern California


Steve W 1973 : 23' Southern California
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302784 is a reply to message #302759] Tue, 28 June 2016 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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JohnL455 wrote on Tue, 28 June 2016 12:22
The important thing is to read and follow Duane's instructions. The two'fer needs to stay connecting the 2 terminals taped up but be off of the regulator. Disconnecting and taping the other wire prevents the parasitic drain possibility.
One wire from the two'fer goes to the flywheel alternator and the other goes to pin 8 on the board. I haven't looked at it, but if the board end of the wire on pin 8 is a female spade connector, you could just take the wire from pin 8 to the regulator completely off and connect the wire from the flywheel alternator directly to pin 8 for a tidier fix. And if the wire from the regulator to pin 5 is a spade connector at the board, just take it off too. That way you don't have wires dangling and waiting to abrade through and short to the case.

And besides, corrosion at that two'fer connection (plus the other two connections) might result in a lack of voltage to pin 8 that causes the board to not sense generator running. That'll trigger the board to turn off the 12V to the fuel pump and the coil, leaving you scratching your head and wondering why the Onan will only run with pin 5 jumpered to pin 9 when there is nothing wrong with the oil pressure switch. So you buy a new board and so on.
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302798 is a reply to message #302742] Tue, 28 June 2016 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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True. But in the interest of remembering Duane you wrap it with tape like he did in the DVD. I think his thinking was that way you could undo and restore easilly. Actally even good e tape like Scotch 33 is only good about a year in "underhood environs". You really need the stretch type underhood loom tape.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302802 is a reply to message #302798] Tue, 28 June 2016 21:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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JohnL455 wrote on Tue, 28 June 2016 21:44
True. But in the interest of remembering Duane you wrap it with tape like he did in the DVD. I think his thinking was that way you could undo and restore easilly. Actally even good e tape like Scotch 33 is only good about a year in "underhood environs". You really need the stretch type underhood loom tape.
If you are using the house battery (bank) as the Onan start battery, you are never going to charge anything with the trickle from the Onan voltage regulator.

If you want to be able to restore the capability, keep the removed wire segments on board in an envelope with instructions.
Re: Onan Flywheel Alternator Question [message #302815 is a reply to message #302742] Wed, 29 June 2016 08:29 Go to previous message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Yes yours is a more professional way of circumventing the system as the taped up ends will short out at some point and with no voltage to board create a no stay running condition.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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