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Onan Run Voltage [message #302355] Sun, 19 June 2016 17:55 Go to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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When I was getting the Onan running the last time, I had to jumper the pin 5 to pin 9 to get it to start and run. When I pulled the jumper, it died. A PO disconnected the voltage regulator, and my sister, the mechanic, said that it needs the VR to power the fuel pump and ignition. I thought the time we were messing with it before I jumpered pin 6 to pin 9 and when it was running I pulled the jumper and it continued to run. But maybe not, since CRS has set in with a vengeance.

I told her the set will run with the voltage regulator disconnected, but will not charge the battery. She said I didn't know what I was talking about.

I don't have any sort of charger for the Onan battery in my stock 73, so right now starting the genset takes the battery down a little, but I would feel better if it didn't get deader just from running. I intend to get some form of battery charger on it, but for now just need it to power the roof AC every now and then.

I think the oil pressure switch went bad and that is why it won't run when I pull the jumper between pin 5 and in 9. Next time I tinker with it I will pull pin 12 and try to run it to verify that.

Anyway, being too lazy to figure out the control diagram, can someone tell me if the set should run and power its own fuel pump and ignition even with the voltage regulator disconnected?
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302365 is a reply to message #302355] Sun, 19 June 2016 18:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bobby5832708 is currently offline  bobby5832708   United States
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You need 12 volts from somewhere to power the fuel pump and the battery-powered (as opposed to magneto) ignition system. If you've disconnected the voltage regulator then the Onan isn't making the 12 volts, it's coming from the battery and the Onan will run until the battery gets low.

My Onan has not had a voltage regulator for many years. The 12 volts it needs to run comes from the power converter / house battery (I use the rear-mounted house battery as the generator battery on my 1974 GMC).



Bob Heller
2017 Winnebago 29VE
Winter Springs FL
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302370 is a reply to message #302365] Sun, 19 June 2016 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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bobby5832708 wrote on Sun, 19 June 2016 18:46
You need 12 volts from somewhere to power the fuel pump and the battery-powered (as opposed to magneto) ignition system. If you've disconnected the voltage regulator then the Onan isn't making the 12 volts, it's coming from the battery and the Onan will run until the battery gets low.

My Onan has not had a voltage regulator for many years. The 12 volts it needs to run comes from the power converter / house battery (I use the rear-mounted house battery as the generator battery on my 1974 GMC).
I was thinking everything gets 12V UNREGULATED from the flywheel generator and only needs the VR to charge the battery. 73s have the house battery up front and a battery dedicated to the Onan in the rear. I am trying to figure out if I need to get the VR functionality restored OR rig up a battery charger for the Onan battery to run off the 120VAC system in order for the Onan to run for extended periods of time. If the flywheel generator will keep it running after it starts, that task can be closer to the bottom of the todo list.
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302372 is a reply to message #302370] Sun, 19 June 2016 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tphipps is currently offline  tphipps   United States
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If you are using the house battery to start the Onan, the house battery will be providing the 12v for the fuel pump and ignition system. If your battery charger is on line when 110 is present, it will keep the battery up. If your battery charger is off line when the Onan is running, you will run down which ever battery is starting the Onan.
There are many Onans out there running quite happily without the 12v Onan regulator installed.
Tom, MS II


2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302374 is a reply to message #302372] Sun, 19 June 2016 19:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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tphipps wrote on Sun, 19 June 2016 19:28
If you are using the house battery to start the Onan, the house battery will be providing the 12v for the fuel pump and ignition system. If your battery charger is on line when 110 is present, it will keep the battery up. If your battery charger is off line when the Onan is running, you will run down which ever battery is starting the Onan.
There are many Onans out there running quite happily without the 12v Onan regulator installed.
Tom, MS II
I say again: 73s have a dedicated Onan battery in the rear, the house battery is up front, and the converter charges the house battery only. The only OEM source of charging for that Onan battery is the VR on the Onan. The questions I am trying to ask are,

Will the Onan run itself with the Voltage Regulator disconnected, or will it need the battery to power the coil and the fuel pump when the VR is disconnected?
Does the voltage regulator do more than charge the battery (does it power the coil and fuel pump)?
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302380 is a reply to message #302374] Sun, 19 June 2016 20:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
roy1 is currently offline  roy1   United States
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Yes the Onan will run until the battery gets depleted till around 10 or 11 volts. The voltage regulators only job is to charge the Onan battery

Roy Keen Minden,NV 76 X Glenbrook

[Updated on: Sun, 19 June 2016 20:54]

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Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302384 is a reply to message #302355] Sun, 19 June 2016 22:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Someone does not know what they are talking about and it is NOT you.

The Onan needs 12 DC volts to get started, run the fuel pump, and the ignition. That 12 volts comes from the house batteries or the Onan starting battery.

How those battery(s) gets charged / recharged is a different topic and varies depending on what year your coach is.

There is 30 VAC voltage from the internal alternator and it is used to tell the board that the Onan is running. The 30 VAC is there even when the voltage regulator is disconnected. My voltage regulator has been disconnected for years.



Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302389 is a reply to message #302384] Sun, 19 June 2016 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 19 June 2016 22:29
Someone does not know what they are talking about and it is NOT you.
The Onan needs 12 DC volts to get started, run the fuel pump, and the ignition. That 12 volts comes from the house batteries or the Onan starting battery.

How those battery(s) gets charged / recharged is a different topic and varies depending on what year your coach is.

There is 30 VAC voltage from the internal alternator and it is used to tell the board that the Onan is running. The 30 VAC is there even when the voltage regulator is disconnected. My voltage regulator has been disconnected for years.
Not sure anybody is wrong here. If your year model uses the house battery as the Onan start battery, you don't need the Onan voltage regulator to keep the house battery charged. If, like me, you have an early model with a dedicated battery for the Onan, the only way that battery gets charged is from the Onan Voltage Regulator. What I am asking is if an Onan with a dedicated battery, NOT charged from the converter,will run the battery down if the Voltage Regulator is disconnected.

While this discussion was going on, I stared at the schematic for the control board, and it looks like pin 5 and the battery are in parallel from the VR. And pin 5 powers pin 9 after the Onan starts (pin 9 gets power from the starter solenoid via pin 10 when the starter is engaged). The B+ terminal of the VR is connected to pin 5 and also through a fuse to pin 11 which is a direct connection to the positive post of the battery.

Pin 8 is an A/C "generator running" input to the board from the flywheel alternator. (The other side of this AC signal is pin 5.) It disengages the starter and "latches" the voltage provided to pin 9.

I thought that meant that the voltage at pin 8 would keep the generator running. I guess it just means that when the generator is running, whatever is on pin 5 gets to pin 9. pin 5 is just a probe point between the voltage regulator and the battery. No VR, no charging to the battery, and the generator runs until it drains the battery.

I gotta normal up the voltage regulator and hope it works. If it doesn't, I have to buy and rig up a battery charger for the Onan battery.
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302392 is a reply to message #302389] Sun, 19 June 2016 23:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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I thought you said that with the pins jumpered 5 to 9 that it starts but does not stay running with the jumper removed. If so that means that the battery was powering the ignition and fuel pump with the jumper installed. I'll have to go back and reread this thread.

As far as the voltage regulator goes, it is only used for charging the starting battery. Sometimes when the VR goes bad it will shut down the 30VAC from the alternator and cause the board to sense that the engine is not running. This is the prime reason why we disconnect the VR when charging of the separate Onan starting battery is not needed.

Some people with separate Onan starting batteries have disconnected the VR and installed a combiner from the house battery(s). This then allows the separate Onan starting battery to be charged whenever the 110VAC is working through the converter or when the Main Engine is running through main engine driven alternator (through the isolator). Doing it this way, the Onan starting battery should always be freshly charged even if you have not run the Onan for many months.

I hope that I have answered you question.

Ken B.



Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302397 is a reply to message #302392] Mon, 20 June 2016 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 19 June 2016 23:37
I thought you said that with the pins jumpered 5 to 9 that it starts but does not stay running with the jumper removed. If so that means that the battery was powering the ignition and fuel pump with the jumper installed. I'll have to go back and reread this thread.

As far as the voltage regulator goes, it is only used for charging the starting battery. Sometimes when the VR goes bad it will shut down the 30VAC from the alternator and cause the board to sense that the engine is not running. This is the prime reason why we disconnect the VR when charging of the separate Onan starting battery is not needed.

Some people with separate Onan starting batteries have disconnected the VR and installed a combiner from the house battery(s). This then allows the separate Onan starting battery to be charged whenever the 110VAC is working through the converter or when the Main Engine is running through main engine driven alternator (through the isolator). Doing it this way, the Onan starting battery should always be freshly charged even if you have not run the Onan for many months.

I hope that I have answered you question.

Ken B.
You got everything right. I have a 73 with dedicated Onan battery. A PO disconnected the VR. I jumpered pin 5 to 9 and it started and ran. I pulled the jumper and it died. My question was basically, without the VR, will it run the battery down while running, or not?

Also, did it die when I pulled the jumper because it needs the VR to run or because of something else (bad oil pressure switch)? It seemed to me that pin 9 should be powering the fuel pump and coil (from the battery) even without the VR or the jumper. So it was two questions in one post.
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302398 is a reply to message #302397] Mon, 20 June 2016 00:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Yes, on a 1973 with an separate Onan starting battery is should run with the VR disconnected. On a 1973 with the VR disconnected there is no method of charging the battery and it will eventually run the battery down.

That bring up the question. How did you disconnect the VR? There is one pin on the VR that has two wires on it. When disconnecting the two wires from the YR, the wires still need to be connected to each other even though they are no longer connected to the VR terminal. If they are not connected to each other you will not get power to the ignition and fuel pump. Could this be the reason you are not getting power to the ignition and fuel pump with the 5 to 9 jumper removed?


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302409 is a reply to message #302355] Mon, 20 June 2016 09:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Let me start here by saying that (yet again) KenB is correct.
Let me also allow that AHamiton is also correct.
But - There are many little undocumented traps laid for unsuspecting but knowledgeable people.....

I have a wonderfully operational BF (4.0) in a 23' '73 and did in go three falls with the controls and oil leaks.
We have come to an understanding (the Onan and I) and it has been behaving as it should.

Now,
In any of the coaches not modified to carry the house bank in the rear (a suggested modification for a 26), the charging system for the rear (Onan) battery is essential. If you have a Grp 24 (small size car) battery, the Onan will run for 12~15 hours getting worse all the time. When it finally quits, it will work very hard to piss you off because the connected battery will still crank the little low compression motor but the POS ignition won't light the fire. (If this does sound like a BTDT, there is a reason.) If you jump it from another battery, it may start and run for only a few minutes.

The charging regulator used on the PowerDrawer series is another POS. (I have gone around with them for decades on my Kohler engined Gravelys.) The version on a BF/NH is the 15 amp type. The two inline pins are the AC input. The single is the B+. Then there is a problem in our application as the two AC pins are not interchangeable if it is an original Prestolite (or an accurate copy). If it still an original Prestolite, the double connection should be on the AC terminal nearest the single B+ terminal.

If you are in any doubt, do this test.
Check the B+ terminal - It should be in the 12.4~.6 range.
Start the Onan - that B+ terminal should jump up to about 12.8. Remember, this is a 15 amp charging system and it is only trying to recover the starting battery.

If you have the AC at the terminal that you should (18~24) but don't get the charging jump that you should, the regulator is probably fried. These things were not very robust as built, and I have had the potting for the electronics fail on all four of the original units that I have owned. You can get a part number replacement from Onan for 90~100$us or the Kohler for 70~80$us, or go on Ebay and find something that looks like it and buy that for 30$us. Buy the same physical package unless you feel like dealing with a mounting fight. No matter which you get for an Onan, try the above test after installation as it too (no telling with Chinese versions) may have differences with where the AC actually goes.

I really like the idea of an isolator to keep the Onan's battery charged. We got inconvenienced once because the APU had not been run in a very long time and the battery in the back would crank, but not fire the beast. (Remember that warning above?) I won't tell you what I am doing now, it is sort of foolish, but it works great.

But, then we another interesting moment recently. Mary got something out of the cabinet over the reefer (a 23 remember) and the APU started - all on its own....
One of the wires came of its terminal and touched another the thing started right up...

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302410 is a reply to message #302355] Mon, 20 June 2016 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
roy1 is currently offline  roy1   United States
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I disconnected the regulator from mine a number of years ago not because it wasn't needed but because it was the source of a phantom drain on my battery. So if you do decide to reconnect it you should check and make sure it isn't draining your battery down while the coach is in storage.

Roy Keen Minden,NV 76 X Glenbrook
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302412 is a reply to message #302398] Mon, 20 June 2016 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 20 June 2016 00:45
Yes, on a 1973 with an separate Onan starting battery is should run with the VR disconnected. On a 1973 with the VR disconnected there is no method of charging the battery and it will eventually run the battery down.

That bring up the question. How did you disconnect the VR? There is one pin on the VR that has two wires on it. When disconnecting the two wires from the YR, the wires still need to be connected to each other even though they are no longer connected to the VR terminal. If they are not connected to each other you will not get power to the ignition and fuel pump. Could this be the reason you are not getting power to the ignition and fuel pump with the 5 to 9 jumper removed?
I did not disconnect the VR, a PO did. And it is possible that the wire from the flywheel alternator has no path to pin 8. There are only two wires at the VR and there should be three. I will need to see if the PO ran the wire from the VR straight to pin 8 instead of leaving the original wiring intact. If the wire from the flywheel alternator goes to pin 8, I hope the reason it won't run without the jumper is a bad oil pressure switch.
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302413 is a reply to message #302410] Mon, 20 June 2016 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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roy1 wrote on Mon, 20 June 2016 11:00
I disconnected the regulator from mine a number of years ago not because it wasn't needed but because it was the source of a phantom drain on my battery. So if you do decide to reconnect it you should check and make sure it isn't draining your battery down while the coach is in storage.
Thanks for that. I don't know where to buy a replacement VR for reasonable number of nickels, so if the VR is bad, I am sort of screwed.
Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302414 is a reply to message #302413] Mon, 20 June 2016 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tphipps is currently offline  tphipps   United States
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I am sure that your favorite GMC parts supplier could provide you with an Onan VR from their collective pile of Onan Parts machines. Jim Bounds used to have a fair collection of machines.
Tom, MS II


2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG
Re: [GMCnet] Onan Run Voltage [message #302415 is a reply to message #302414] Mon, 20 June 2016 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
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Sirum used to have a bunch of used machines as well. Don't know about today.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jun 20, 2016 9:35 AM, "Thomas Phipps" wrote:

> I am sure that your favorite GMC parts supplier could provide you with an
> Onan VR from their collective pile of Onan Parts machines. Jim Bounds used
> to have a fair collection of machines.
> Tom, MS II
> --
> 1975 GMC Avion
> KA4CSG
>
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Re: Onan Run Voltage [message #302416 is a reply to message #302414] Mon, 20 June 2016 12:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A Hamilto is currently offline  A Hamilto   United States
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tphipps wrote on Mon, 20 June 2016 11:34
I am sure that your favorite GMC parts supplier could provide you with an Onan VR from their collective pile of Onan Parts machines. Jim Bounds used to have a fair collection of machines.
Tom, MS II
IIRC, Jim Bounds cleared out his pile a year or so ago. His collection is not as big as it used to be. A problem with used is it might not be any better than the one I have. I haven't found a test procedure for the VR other than "if the battery doesn't charge, replace the VR."

The possibility that the VR can discharge the battery when the Onan is not being used is disconcerting.
Re: [GMCnet] Onan Run Voltage [message #302418 is a reply to message #302413] Mon, 20 June 2016 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
powerjon is currently offline  powerjon   United States
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Guys,
You should look at this:

http://gmcmotorhome.info/generator.html#ALTERNATOR

JR
> On Jun 20, 2016, at 12:28 PM, A. wrote:
>
> roy1 wrote on Mon, 20 June 2016 11:00
>> I disconnected the regulator from mine a number of years ago not because it wasn't needed but because it was the source of a phantom drain on my
>> battery. So if you do decide to reconnect it you should check and make sure it isn't draining your battery down while the coach is in storage.
> Thanks for that. I don't know where to buy a replacement VR for reasonable number of nickels, so if the VR is bad, I am sort of screwed.
> --
> 73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
> 73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
> Upper Alabama
> "Posting on the GMCnet seems to always result in a cacophony of responses which only tend to cloud the solution rather than move you closer to it."
> Jim Miller
>
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J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
GMC Eastern States
GMCMI
78 30' Buskirk Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
Re: [GMCnet] Onan Run Voltage [message #302419 is a reply to message #302416] Mon, 20 June 2016 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Why don't you just leave the VR disconnected and tie the Onan battery to
the house system, preferably through a combiner? Even a 16 g. wire would
pass as much charge current as the 8A Onan generator produces.

Ken H.


On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 1:01 PM, A. wrote:

> tphipps wrote on Mon, 20 June 2016 11:34
>> I am sure that your favorite GMC parts supplier could provide you with
> an Onan VR from their collective pile of Onan Parts machines. Jim Bounds
>> used to have a fair collection of machines.
>> Tom, MS II
> IIRC, Jim Bounds cleared out his pile a year or so ago. His collection is
> not as big as it used to be. A problem with used is it might not be any
> better than the one I have. I haven't found a test procedure for the VR
> other than "if the battery doesn't charge, replace the VR."
>
> The possibility that the VR can discharge the battery when the Onan is not
> being used is disconcerting.
> --
> 73 23' Sequoia 4 Sale
> 73 23' CanyonLands Parts Unit 4 Sale
> Upper Alabama
> "Posting on the GMCnet seems to always result in a cacophony of responses
> which only tend to cloud the solution rather than move you closer to it."
> Jim Miller
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
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