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| Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299048] |
Thu, 14 April 2016 17:14  |
gibsongo
Messages: 116
Registered: October 2012
Location: Montreal West, Quebec, Ca...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hello all
Reassembly of my coach has is now well underway. Frank Borrmann (Borrmann's Garage, Bluevale, Ontario) has done a great job of insulating the underneath of the cockpit (rubber sound deadener membrane, half inch of aluminum-backed foam paneling and stainless steel), and the new frame was married to the coach early this week. Les Burt graciously put me in touch with Marcus Miller, who supplied two used fuel tanks to replace mine which were thoroughly corroded through. The JMK 4-bag rear suspension and Dave Lenzie upper control arms and hubs are ready to bolt on. A Honda EV6010 patiently awaits installation in a slide tray.
I am now at the stage where decisions have to be made about fuel delivery. The PO had swapped out the Quadrajet for an Edelbrock carb, I will either revert to a Quadrajet, or go the throttle-body fuel injection route. Since I have no re-buildable core, a Patterson rebuilt Quadrajet from Applied will set me back $395 + $285 core charge. My conclusion is that I would be crazy not to at least consider FI, and the recent spate of write-ups on the FiTech system sound very compelling. Given that there is no real free lunch, my question is whether anyone has bumped up up against the inevitable downsides? Installation sounds simple enough, but is there a "give-up" because the unit has so few sensors? Is it easy to hook up the legacy GMC cruise control to it? If not, what else has to be bought to get cruise control working? Which would be the unit of choice - the 400 or the 600? Finally, I have heard stories about people having to debug their Howell FI systems - but the comments about FiTech don't seem to mention this. Is the FiTech really plug&play? I have an Applied low-pressure electric fuel pump, and so the Commander option that obviates the need for return hoses sounds appealing. Once again, is there a "give-up" associated with this. Finally, are there any alternatives to FiTech that I should be considering.
I am torn between staying with old technology that has proven itself, and new technology which (to me at least) will probably be better understood by a higher percentage of mechanics currently plying their trade in North America - although I have read affirmations to the contrary..
Just throwing these questions out there, in the hopes of seeing a feeding frenzy of responses. And thanking all responders in advance.
Gordon Gibson
23' Norris Upfit
Montreal West, Qc. Canada
Gordon Gibson
1976 23" Norris Upfit
Montreal West, Quebec, Canada
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299062 is a reply to message #299048] |
Thu, 14 April 2016 22:15  |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Gorden,
You'll find some people with problem with the Howell/EBL True EFI units as
there are considerably more of them out there.They should contact me as I
have people that can solve problems.
A good rebuilt carburetor and a Patterson distributor will perform almost
as well as the FiTech unit.
Reason why the carb units do not fire up immediately is because of leaking
fuel bowel and exhaust cross over that has not been plugged to cut down on
excess heat.
On My 403 carbed unit I run a electric pump and turn the key on for about 5
seconds then push the throttle half way to set the choke then engage the
starter.It fires up immidiatly.
Should your engine continues to run after shutting off the key, it is
because your engine idle speed is too high.
True EFI should sense have knock sensor, Oxygen sensor and correct timing
when engine temperature gets extra high on a long hill.
Ignition timing is more important than fuel delivery. The EBL does that so
well that our customers are getting 1-2 mpg improvement.
Another plus is the technical assistance 7 days a week from people that not
only understand the EBL system, but can analyze the problem .
95% of parts are available at automotive parts stores.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Gordon Gibson
wrote:
> Hello all
>
> Reassembly of my coach has is now well underway. Frank Borrmann
> (Borrmann's Garage, Bluevale, Ontario) has done a great job of insulating
> the
> underneath of the cockpit (rubber sound deadener membrane, half inch of
> aluminum-backed foam paneling and stainless steel), and the new frame was
> married to the coach early this week. Les Burt graciously put me in touch
> with Marcus Miller, who supplied two used fuel tanks to replace mine which
> were thoroughly corroded through. The JMK 4-bag rear suspension and Dave
> Lenzie upper control arms and hubs are ready to bolt on. A Honda EV6010
> patiently awaits installation in a slide tray.
>
> I am now at the stage where decisions have to be made about fuel delivery.
> The PO had swapped out the Quadrajet for an Edelbrock carb, I will either
> revert to a Quadrajet, or go the throttle-body fuel injection route. Since
> I have no re-buildable core, a Patterson rebuilt Quadrajet from Applied
> will set me back $395 + $285 core charge. My conclusion is that I would be
> crazy not to at least consider FI, and the recent spate of write-ups on the
> FiTech system sound very compelling. Given that there is no real free
> lunch, my question is whether anyone has bumped up up against the inevitable
> downsides? Installation sounds simple enough, but is there a "give-up"
> because the unit has so few sensors? Is it easy to hook up the legacy GMC
> cruise control to it? If not, what else has to be bought to get cruise
> control working? Which would be the unit of choice - the 400 or the 600?
> Finally, I have heard stories about people having to debug their Howell FI
> systems - but the comments about FiTech don't seem to mention this. Is the
> FiTech really plug&play? I have an Applied low-pressure electric fuel
> pump, and so the Commander option that obviates the need for return hoses
> sounds appealing. Once again, is there a "give-up" associated with this.
> Finally, are there any alternatives to FiTech that I should be considering.
>
>
> I am torn between staying with old technology that has proven itself, and
> new technology which (to me at least) will probably be better understood by
> a higher percentage of mechanics currently plying their trade in North
> America - although I have read affirmations to the contrary..
>
>
> Just throwing these questions out there, in the hopes of seeing a feeding
> frenzy of responses. And thanking all responders in advance.
>
> Gordon Gibson
> 23' Norris Upfit
> Montreal West, Qc. Canada
> --
> 1976 23" Norris Upfit
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299063 is a reply to message #299062] |
Thu, 14 April 2016 22:24 |
jimk
Messages: 6734
Registered: July 2006
Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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I have run several EFI units since 1990 so I know these units or know
people that know how to analyze units when they develope issues.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 8:15 PM, Jim Kanomata wrote:
> Gorden,
> You'll find some people with problem with the Howell/EBL True EFI units as
> there are considerably more of them out there.They should contact me as I
> have people that can solve problems.
> A good rebuilt carburetor and a Patterson distributor will perform almost
> as well as the FiTech unit.
> Reason why the carb units do not fire up immediately is because of leaking
> fuel bowel and exhaust cross over that has not been plugged to cut down on
> excess heat.
> On My 403 carbed unit I run a electric pump and turn the key on for about
> 5 seconds then push the throttle half way to set the choke then engage the
> starter.It fires up immidiatly.
> Should your engine continues to run after shutting off the key, it is
> because your engine idle speed is too high.
> True EFI should sense have knock sensor, Oxygen sensor and correct timing
> when engine temperature gets extra high on a long hill.
> Ignition timing is more important than fuel delivery. The EBL does that so
> well that our customers are getting 1-2 mpg improvement.
> Another plus is the technical assistance 7 days a week from people that
> not only understand the EBL system, but can analyze the problem .
> 95% of parts are available at automotive parts stores.
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Gordon Gibson > wrote:
>
>> Hello all
>>
>> Reassembly of my coach has is now well underway. Frank Borrmann
>> (Borrmann's Garage, Bluevale, Ontario) has done a great job of insulating
>> the
>> underneath of the cockpit (rubber sound deadener membrane, half inch of
>> aluminum-backed foam paneling and stainless steel), and the new frame was
>> married to the coach early this week. Les Burt graciously put me in touch
>> with Marcus Miller, who supplied two used fuel tanks to replace mine which
>> were thoroughly corroded through. The JMK 4-bag rear suspension and Dave
>> Lenzie upper control arms and hubs are ready to bolt on. A Honda EV6010
>> patiently awaits installation in a slide tray.
>>
>> I am now at the stage where decisions have to be made about fuel
>> delivery. The PO had swapped out the Quadrajet for an Edelbrock carb, I
>> will either
>> revert to a Quadrajet, or go the throttle-body fuel injection route.
>> Since I have no re-buildable core, a Patterson rebuilt Quadrajet from
>> Applied
>> will set me back $395 + $285 core charge. My conclusion is that I would
>> be crazy not to at least consider FI, and the recent spate of write-ups on
>> the
>> FiTech system sound very compelling. Given that there is no real free
>> lunch, my question is whether anyone has bumped up up against the inevitable
>> downsides? Installation sounds simple enough, but is there a "give-up"
>> because the unit has so few sensors? Is it easy to hook up the legacy GMC
>> cruise control to it? If not, what else has to be bought to get cruise
>> control working? Which would be the unit of choice - the 400 or the 600?
>> Finally, I have heard stories about people having to debug their Howell
>> FI systems - but the comments about FiTech don't seem to mention this. Is
>> the
>> FiTech really plug&play? I have an Applied low-pressure electric fuel
>> pump, and so the Commander option that obviates the need for return hoses
>> sounds appealing. Once again, is there a "give-up" associated with this.
>> Finally, are there any alternatives to FiTech that I should be considering.
>>
>>
>> I am torn between staying with old technology that has proven itself, and
>> new technology which (to me at least) will probably be better understood by
>> a higher percentage of mechanics currently plying their trade in North
>> America - although I have read affirmations to the contrary..
>>
>>
>> Just throwing these questions out there, in the hopes of seeing a feeding
>> frenzy of responses. And thanking all responders in advance.
>>
>> Gordon Gibson
>> 23' Norris Upfit
>> Montreal West, Qc. Canada
>> --
>> 1976 23" Norris Upfit
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jim Kanomata
> Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
> jimk@appliedairfilters.com
> http://www.appliedgmc.com
> 1-800-752-7502
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299447 is a reply to message #299071] |
Thu, 21 April 2016 22:16 |
gibsongo
Messages: 116
Registered: October 2012
Location: Montreal West, Quebec, Ca...
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Loffen
A quick question if I may - while at the same time I ask for your indulgence with regard to my mechanical ignorance.
As you mention, the 600 has a few more bells and whistles, including ignition control. I assume that this means the FI somehow controls the degree of spark advance to optimize combustion, reduce pinging, etc.
My understanding is that there are two models of distributor installed on GMCs - one is the classic old style with breaker points, which I guess uses intake manifold vacuum to control the advance. The second is "pointless" - presumably triggering the spark with some kind of sensor. I have no idea how the advance is controlled with this type of distributor - but assume it is done electronically.
My coach is an early 1976 with the 455. Think that Frank Borrman (the mechanic doing the work on the coach) told me that my distributor was of the "pointless" variety. When I searched the forum for Fitech entries I thought I saw some mention of the fact that the ignition control on the Fitech 600 works with one type of distributor and not the other.
Am I safe to assume that the 600 ignition control would work with the more modern "pointless" distributor...but perhaps not with the other model?
Thanks in advance for your response...and your patience.
Regards
Gordon
Gordon Gibson
1976 23" Norris Upfit
Montreal West, Quebec, Canada
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299459 is a reply to message #299447] |
Fri, 22 April 2016 07:53 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Hi Gordon
I originally ordered the 400hp unit but kept getting the delivery pushed back. I ended up ordering the 600hp unit the differences between the two are injector sizes and the 400hp unit does not support ignition control. The ignition control only works on points type distributors early models non-HEI. Hope this helps
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299461 is a reply to message #299459] |
Fri, 22 April 2016 08:37 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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John,
In addition to the restriction to points type distributors, it's my
understanding that the only ignition "control" is that the advance curve is
controlled by software tables. That is, there is no knock detector
providing feedback and real time control of advance.
Is that correct?
Thanks,
Ken H.
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:53 AM, jhb1 wrote:
> Hi Gordon
>
> I originally ordered the 400hp unit but kept getting the delivery pushed
> back. I ended up ordering the 600hp unit the differences between the two are
> injector sizes and the 400hp unit does not support ignition control. The
> ignition control only works on points type distributors early models
> non-HEI.
> Hope this helps
> --
>
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Fi Tech - any downwsides [message #299508 is a reply to message #299461] |
Fri, 22 April 2016 16:20 |
jhb1
Messages: 303
Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Yup pretty simple control if I was looking for more control I would have kept the airsensor system and gone with megasquirt with coil paks for full ignition control
Ken Henderson wrote on Fri, 22 April 2016 13:37John,
In addition to the restriction to points type distributors, it's my
understanding that the only ignition "control" is that the advance curve is
controlled by software tables. That is, there is no knock detector
providing feedback and real time control of advance.
Is that correct?
Thanks,
Ken H.
On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 8:53 AM, jhb1 wrote:
> Hi Gordon
>
> I originally ordered the 400hp unit but kept getting the delivery pushed
> back. I ended up ordering the 600hp unit the differences between the two are
> injector sizes and the 400hp unit does not support ignition control. The
> ignition control only works on points type distributors early models
> non-HEI.
> Hope this helps
> --
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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