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Onan phantom battery drain [message #297537] Thu, 17 March 2016 12:34 Go to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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OK folks, I have been out there measuring and pulling wires....

The Onan (our is old remember an the Onan has its own battery) start battery has a 15~25ma drain when sitting. It should not and it didn't used to.....
I can measure this at terminal 11. If I have been out there pull the Molex and independently supply power at 11(+) and 1(-) the drain is not there. But if I plug the Molex and measure the drain at the fuse, it is there no matter what terminal I disconnect. This is below the sensitivity of my Bell/Fluke DC probe.

Fortunately, I have KenH's clearer diagram for help. (Thanks Ken)

Any Ideas??

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297561 is a reply to message #297537] Thu, 17 March 2016 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jhbridges is currently offline  jhbridges   United States
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Drain is on the circuit card, or inside the genset? Circuit card, suspect the caps first, diodes next, other semiconductors last.

--johnny


Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297564 is a reply to message #297561] Thu, 17 March 2016 19:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Johnny Bridges wrote on Thu, 17 March 2016 19:58
Drain is on the circuit card, or inside the genset? Circuit card, suspect the caps first, diodes next, other semiconductors last.

--johnny

Johnny,

If I independently power the control card, there is no drain. I believe I have pulled all the suspected leads to the unit and still see the drain. Yeah, U was expecting and antique electrolyd to be the problem. Not yet . . .

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297566 is a reply to message #297537] Thu, 17 March 2016 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Mollex to the cabin remote? Or you have a board with Molex instead of induvidual faston terminals?

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297573 is a reply to message #297537] Thu, 17 March 2016 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Lots of items are disconnected from the board when you pull the molex connector. With the molex connector connected, I would start pulling the individual wires one at a time and leave them disconnected (and marked) as you go to the next one. When you finally find the load going away. reconnect individual wires trying to get as many re attached as possible without having the draw come back. That way you should be able to find some combination of just a few disconnected wires that are causing your problem. That will narrow down the affected circuit(s).

At this point I have no idea where the actual problem is but this might help you to get closer to it. It could be on the board like a tacked relay point, or cap, or semi conductor that only shows up when hooked to and external item like the alternator, or solenoid, or ignition, etc. It could also be external to the board item with a high resistance connection to ground or +12. Something on coil like a solenoid, starter, or ignition, etc. Right now I could give you 10 guesses and all of them would be wrong.

My first "guess" would be something around the flywheel alternator circuit. Pin 5 and 8 on the board. Pull those two at the same time first and see what you have for a draw.

I'm just trying to get you closer to the failure using a combination of components or pins required to make it show up.

Ken B.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297580 is a reply to message #297537] Thu, 17 March 2016 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
roy1 is currently offline  roy1   United States
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Had a phantom drain on my 6k onan that turned out to be the voltage regulator.

Roy Keen Minden,NV 76 X Glenbrook
Roy Wins!! Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297623 is a reply to message #297580] Fri, 18 March 2016 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Thanks for the hint Roy.

It was the voltage regulator. It tests as good by Presolite's diagnostic, but it was the problem.
Multiple megohms in every direction at Fluke 77 test voltage, but put it in the circuit and it wanted to draw ~ 25ma. Ken Burton can tell you that this will kill a battery.

This is a very good reason to take the damn thing off if you have the house bank in the back. Unfortunately, I don't.

I do now have a spare PD9145w/wizard back there. Maybe that will replace the late cretaceous version of a regulator.

On to getting her ready for the Dothan run.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] Roy Wins!! Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297626 is a reply to message #297623] Fri, 18 March 2016 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jim Miller is currently offline  Jim Miller   United States
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On Mar 18, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Matt Colie wrote:

> It was the voltage regulator. It tests as good by Presolite's diagnostic, but it was the problem. Multiple megohms in every direction at Fluke 77 test voltage, but put it in the circuit and it wanted to draw ~ 25ma.

Hi Matt,

Your mention of the Fluke’s “test voltage” is a key fact. Meters such as the venerable Simpson 260 that were in use at the time the Onan was designed put a small but non-trivial amount of DC bias across their leads when in resistance mode and in some cases this was enough to “power up” a device under test. Modern DVMs don’t put anywhere near that amount of bias on their leads and therefore may give different indications compared to the older meters.

This difference between the meters’ principle of operation must be understood when interpreting displayed results and those who put their unlimited trust in the readout of their DVM may be fooling themselves unless they understand this distinction.

Another classic case is a DVM measuring perfect +12V downstream of a corroded battery terminal whereas an older meter (which placed more load across its leads due to its method of operation) would have read 0V. I’ve seen this case many times.

—Jim
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH


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Jim Miller 1977 Eleganza II 1977 Royale Hamilton, OH
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297643 is a reply to message #297537] Sat, 19 March 2016 08:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jhbridges is currently offline  jhbridges   United States
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Short version of Miller's treatise: Get an analog meter.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.XVOM.TRS0&_nkw=VOM&_sacat=0

--johnny


Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons. Braselton, Ga. I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
Re: [GMCnet] Roy Wins!! Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297645 is a reply to message #297626] Sat, 19 March 2016 08:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Jim Miller wrote on Fri, 18 March 2016 21:14
On Mar 18, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Matt Colie wrote:

> It was the voltage regulator. It tests as good by Presolite's diagnostic, but it was the problem. Multiple megohms in every direction at Fluke 77 test voltage, but put it in the circuit and it wanted to draw ~ 25ma.

Hi Matt,

Your mention of the Fluke's "test voltage" is a key fact. Meters such as the venerable Simpson 260 that were in use at the time the Onan was designed put a small but non-trivial amount of DC bias across their leads when in resistance mode and in some cases this was enough to "power up" a device under test. Modern DVMs don't put anywhere near that amount of bias on their leads and therefore may give different indications compared to the older meters.

This difference between the meters' principle of operation must be understood when interpreting displayed results and those who put their unlimited trust in the readout of their DVM may be fooling themselves unless they understand this distinction.

Another classic case is a DVM measuring perfect +12V downstream of a corroded battery terminal whereas an older meter (which placed more load across its leads due to its method of operation) would have read 0V. I've seen this case many times.

--Jim
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton,

Jim,

I had another run in with this because I had damaged the onboard fuse. The 77 said there was 11.xx on the downstream end. /Tilt/ I found that one.
There is a 260 on my shelf. I think it has been in the same place for a decade give or take. You got to love them, but they will not stand the basic abuse that a 77 will. I hope I can find the leads for it. When I can, will collect enough batteries to run it and try it on the Prestolite regulator. Just for grins.

When I can, I will wire you a picture of the backside of this regulator. The potting is shot to 5h1t. But hey, I've others that made 50+ years and are still functioning. Reminds me, I have to order another heathen version for stock. My Gravely/Kohlers use them and they are a pain to be without.

Off to the SEMNO Lunch.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297663 is a reply to message #297537] Sat, 19 March 2016 12:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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I keep 77 as main tool and some cheaper analogue meters because they are, well, analogue. Matt cant you just add a combiner between house and garden tractor battery as a cheap viable fix?

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Onan phantom battery drain [message #297733 is a reply to message #297663] Sun, 20 March 2016 14:25 Go to previous message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
Messages: 8547
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JohnL455 wrote on Sat, 19 March 2016 13:50
I keep 77 as main tool and some cheaper analogue meters because they are, well, analogue. Matt cant you just add a combiner between house and garden tractor battery as a cheap viable fix?

Could I possibly, But remember this is a 23 and the house battery is at the other corner of the coach at the end of a run of #10SAE (~11AWG).
But I do keep a Kohler/Prestolite regulator in stock for the Gravely tractors. I also doubt that the #10SAE cable that runs from the fuse block to the house bank could keep up after a few starts when dry camping. We have a pretty much regular event that requires 4 nights of dry camping. It is a music event and we try to limit the the generator time out of basic courtesy.

What I am also probably going to do... (Talk about OverKill...)
Years ago I replaced the buzzbox with a PD9125w/wizard.
With the house bank about as far from that as it can be from there and the #10SAE to charge it, it has been a dramatic failure at fast recovering the house bank.
So, recently I ran a 120 line to the front corner and put a 9260 up there. (I didn't need the 60, but the shape was better.)
Now, I had the 9145 about 2 feet from the APU battery and the cable is already there. That should do. And with the market value for a used 9145....

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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