Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section
| stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section [message #296754] |
Sat, 05 March 2016 17:16  |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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I've been trying to understand exactly what we're dealing with in the
stock vs aftermarket oil cooler issue, and why it is advised to
replace the stock cooler after any kind of major engine trouble.
As I understand it, the oil path goes directly from the oil pump to
the oil cooler and, if the filter bypass isn't open, through the filter
to return to the engine. The killer there is if the filter is being
bypassed, any junk gets pumped directly into the engine beginning
with the main bearings. Various things can cause the filter to be
bypassed such as a clogged filter, a weak bypass spring, low oil pressure
either due to engine/pump trouble or, more typically, at initial startup
before the pressure has risen above ~5-6 psi.
Turns out there are a variety of construction techniques for radiators and
oil coolers. The more modern designs are often incredibly complex
and would be equally incredibly difficult to clean. Seeing those,
I can fully understand why engine re-manufacturers void the
warranty if you try to clean the cooler rather than replace it.
However, ours are not modern. As far as I can tell, we're talking about
something like this in our case:
http://www.buyautoparts.com/howto/radiator-break-down-diagram.htm
(Our radiators have the tanks on the sides, like the right-hand diagram.)
If so, the engine oil cooler could be a very simple short tube with a right angle
bend at the top and bottom, a straight section in between, and a bunch
of heat fins on the outside of the tube. I believe that design would be
pretty straightforward to clean.
So (finally) my question: has anybody taken the ends off a stock radiator
and seen what the engine oil cooler actually looks like?
Apologies if this has already been covered; I wasn't able to find anything
when I searched the photo site or forum.
thanks,
Karen
1975 26' yard ornament
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| Re: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section [message #296755 is a reply to message #296754] |
Sat, 05 March 2016 17:31  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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Karen, if you do nothing to your existing oil cooler/filter and replace the
worn engine with a newly rebuilt one, just put a new gasket on the filter
base, what will happen is, the higher flow and pressure from the new
engine will flush out all the trapped crud in your old filter base, lines,
and cooler. Some crud will be caught by the filter, but more than enough of
it will enter your new engine bearings with tight clearances to wreak
havoc. I have a 455 on the engine stand that you can look at right now to
show you what happens when even a tiny bit of crud gets where you don't
want it. Consider the cost involved. New cooler is cheap insurance. Please.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Mar 5, 2016 3:17 PM, "KB" wrote:
> I've been trying to understand exactly what we're dealing with in the
> stock vs aftermarket oil cooler issue, and why it is advised to
> replace the stock cooler after any kind of major engine trouble.
>
> As I understand it, the oil path goes directly from the oil pump to
> the oil cooler and, if the filter bypass isn't open, through the filter
> to return to the engine. The killer there is if the filter is being
> bypassed, any junk gets pumped directly into the engine beginning
> with the main bearings. Various things can cause the filter to be
> bypassed such as a clogged filter, a weak bypass spring, low oil pressure
> either due to engine/pump trouble or, more typically, at initial startup
> before the pressure has risen above ~5-6 psi.
>
> Turns out there are a variety of construction techniques for radiators and
> oil coolers. The more modern designs are often incredibly complex
> and would be equally incredibly difficult to clean. Seeing those,
> I can fully understand why engine re-manufacturers void the
> warranty if you try to clean the cooler rather than replace it.
>
> However, ours are not modern. As far as I can tell, we're talking about
> something like this in our case:
> http://www.buyautoparts.com/howto/radiator-break-down-diagram.htm
> (Our radiators have the tanks on the sides, like the right-hand diagram.)
>
> If so, the engine oil cooler could be a very simple short tube with a
> right angle
> bend at the top and bottom, a straight section in between, and a bunch
> of heat fins on the outside of the tube. I believe that design would be
> pretty straightforward to clean.
>
> So (finally) my question: has anybody taken the ends off a stock radiator
> and seen what the engine oil cooler actually looks like?
>
> Apologies if this has already been covered; I wasn't able to find anything
> when I searched the photo site or forum.
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26' yard ornament
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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| Re: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section [message #296757 is a reply to message #296754] |
Sat, 05 March 2016 18:14 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Karen,
Here's some links you can explore:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6398-455-2f-403-engine-oil-flow-path.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6805-oem-engine-26amp-3b-trans-oil-coolers.html
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=291785&rid=1271&srch=oil+flow#msg_291785
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=282833&rid=1271&srch=oil+flow#msg_282833
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=281506&rid=1271&srch=oil+flow#msg_281506
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=281461&rid=1271&srch=oil+flow#msg_281461
http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&goto=281499&rid=1271&srch=oil+flow#msg_281499
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2016 10:17 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section
I've been trying to understand exactly what we're dealing with in the
stock vs aftermarket oil cooler issue, and why it is advised to
replace the stock cooler after any kind of major engine trouble.
As I understand it, the oil path goes directly from the oil pump to
the oil cooler and, if the filter bypass isn't open, through the filter
to return to the engine. The killer there is if the filter is being
bypassed, any junk gets pumped directly into the engine beginning
with the main bearings. Various things can cause the filter to be
bypassed such as a clogged filter, a weak bypass spring, low oil pressure
either due to engine/pump trouble or, more typically, at initial startup
before the pressure has risen above ~5-6 psi.
Turns out there are a variety of construction techniques for radiators and
oil coolers. The more modern designs are often incredibly complex
and would be equally incredibly difficult to clean. Seeing those,
I can fully understand why engine re-manufacturers void the
warranty if you try to clean the cooler rather than replace it.
However, ours are not modern. As far as I can tell, we're talking about
something like this in our case:
http://www.buyautoparts.com/howto/radiator-break-down-diagram.htm
(Our radiators have the tanks on the sides, like the right-hand diagram.)
If so, the engine oil cooler could be a very simple short tube with a right angle
bend at the top and bottom, a straight section in between, and a bunch
of heat fins on the outside of the tube. I believe that design would be
pretty straightforward to clean.
So (finally) my question: has anybody taken the ends off a stock radiator
and seen what the engine oil cooler actually looks like?
Apologies if this has already been covered; I wasn't able to find anything
when I searched the photo site or forum.
thanks,
Karen
1975 26' yard ornament
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section [message #296761 is a reply to message #296755] |
Sat, 05 March 2016 19:08 |
KB
Messages: 1262
Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Clearly we have to clean the heck out of everything in the oil path,
and I now see that the oil cooler can simply not be cleaned adequately.
I wonder if it's advisable to do the initial engine startup with the oil
cooler assembly out of the picture entirely. That is, remove the sandwich
and just run with the filter for a while. That way if you did manage to
miss some junk, you would at least have a better chance of catching it in
the filter. Thoughts?
thanks,
Karen
1975 26' yard ornament
James Hupy wrote on Sat, 05 March 2016 15:31Karen, if you do nothing to your existing oil cooler/filter and replace the
worn engine with a newly rebuilt one, just put a new gasket on the filter
base, what will happen is, the higher flow and pressure from the new
engine will flush out all the trapped crud in your old filter base, lines,
and cooler. Some crud will be caught by the filter, but more than enough of
it will enter your new engine bearings with tight clearances to wreak
havoc. I have a 455 on the engine stand that you can look at right now to
show you what happens when even a tiny bit of crud gets where you don't
want it. Consider the cost involved. New cooler is cheap insurance. Please.
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| Re: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section [message #296763 is a reply to message #296761] |
Sat, 05 March 2016 19:13 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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D.J. does just that when he runs in a new engine. Uses a filter with no
bypass also. Works for him. He has been bitten on the butt same as me and
many others. I think it is an idea worth exploring.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Mar 5, 2016 5:09 PM, "KB" wrote:
> Clearly we have to clean the heck out of everything in the oil path,
> and I now see that the oil cooler can simply not be cleaned adequately.
>
> I wonder if it's advisable to do the initial engine startup with the oil
> cooler assembly out of the picture entirely. That is, remove the sandwich
> and just run with the filter for a while. That way if you did manage to
> miss some junk, you would at least have a better chance of catching it in
> the filter. Thoughts?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26' yard ornament
>
>
> James Hupy wrote on Sat, 05 March 2016 15:31
>> Karen, if you do nothing to your existing oil cooler/filter and replace
> the
>> worn engine with a newly rebuilt one, just put a new gasket on the filter
>> base, what will happen is, the higher flow and pressure from the new
>> engine will flush out all the trapped crud in your old filter base,
> lines,
>> and cooler. Some crud will be caught by the filter, but more than enough
> of
>> it will enter your new engine bearings with tight clearances to wreak
>> havoc. I have a 455 on the engine stand that you can look at right now to
>> show you what happens when even a tiny bit of crud gets where you don't
>> want it. Consider the cost involved. New cooler is cheap insurance.
> Please.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section [message #296775 is a reply to message #296761] |
Sun, 06 March 2016 00:38 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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[quote title=KB wrote on Sat, 05 March 2016 17:08]Clearly we have to clean the heck out of everything in the oil path,
and I now see that the oil cooler can simply not be cleaned adequately.
I wonder if it's advisable to do the initial engine startup with the oil
cooler assembly out of the picture entirely. That is, remove the sandwich
and just run with the filter for a while. That way if you did manage to
miss some junk, you would at least have a better chance of catching it in
the filter. Thoughts?
thanks,
Karen
1975 26' yard ornament
James Hupy wrote on Sat, 05 March 2016 15:31Karen, if you do nothing to your existing oil cooler/filter and replace the
worn engine with a newly rebuilt one, just put a new gasket on the filter
base, what will happen is, the higher flow and pressure from the new
engine will flush out all the trapped crud in your old filter base, lines,
and cooler. Some crud will be caught by the filter, but more than enough of
it will enter your new engine bearings with tight clearances to wreak
havoc. I have a 455 on the engine stand that you can look at right now to
show you what happens when even a tiny bit of crud gets where you don't
want it. Consider the cost involved. New cooler is cheap insurance. Please.
That is how I did mine with the engine setting in an old engine crate with a makeshift radiator attached. After a couple of run hours I drained the oil and cut open the filter for inspection. Then I put the engine in the coach knowing it should be ok
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section [message #296848 is a reply to message #296845] |
Sun, 06 March 2016 19:06 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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I too was suspicious until I reviewed the information on the Hotflusher website:
http://www.hotflusher.com/automotive/index.cfm
Note the 84 pages of testimonials with 10 on each page!
Also note the photograph of the oil cooler at the bottom of the page of the Independent test:
http://www.hotflusher.com/automotive/independent-test.cfm
That's what our oil and transmission coolers look like internally.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of KB
Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 10:36 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] stock radiator and engine oil cooler cross section
Ok, I will amend my comment to say that there may be an industrial process
that can adequately clean the cooler IF you can find a shop with the right
machine in good working condition AND the person working the machine is
both competent and honest.
Nonetheless, that is not an acceptable path in terms of re-builder warranties;
if you don't replace the cooler, the warranty is void.
Karen
1975 26' yard ornament
USAussie wrote on Sat, 05 March 2016 21:40
> Karen,
>
> Please read this and view the video.
>
> http://gmc.mybirdfeeder.net/GMCforum/index.php?t=msg&th=34545&goto=281508&rid=0#msg_281508
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KB
>
> Thanks. This picture and its siblings answer my question and demonstrates
> that the oil cooler is basically not cleanable:
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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