Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains
| [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296215] |
Thu, 25 February 2016 21:48  |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Sorry about some boring details. But it tells what's up with brake fluids. And your safety. There is a minimum federal boiling point requirement for DOT 3 brake fluid. This is the standard brake fluid for most brake fluid requirements. The minimum boiling point that's required for DOT 3 brake fluid is 284 degrees F. When brake fluid boils in your braking system. This occurs in the mountains. Or heavy traffic with lots of slowing down with stops. You braking system will fail to function completely. There will be NO warning that this situation is starting to occur. ( As a side note. This is why your brake lines to the rear are in the left frame rail. And the hot exhaust pipe is in the right frame rail. ) These standards are based on brake fluids that are considered wet, or dry. Dry DOT 3 fluid is what's poured out of a just opened container. Wet is based on used brake fluids that have absorbed water to a level of 3.7% of water by volume. Standard Dot 3 is Wet 284 F. Dry 401 F.Ford High Performance is Wet 284 F. ( to meet the standard ) Dry 500 F.
Ford developed this High Performance brake fluid in the 80's. As they were having brake boiling issues. Thus complete brake failures on truck chassis that had motor homes built on them. You can only buy it at Ford dealerships. And most parts counter personnel will have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. There is no part # on the container. It's front label is mostly red. So you'll just have to have them find it under the name High Performance brake fluid.I love my wife Linda, dog Delilah, our GMC, and ME. So I use the Ford DOT 3 brake fluid, and change my brake fluid about every 5 years. I've had people tell me that brake fluid never needs to be changed. That's fine. But to me. Is it worth the risk to save $15, and 1 hour of time.As a side note. I do road racing at tracks around the country with our vintage Yenko Stingers. At some tracks. I have my brake drum's starting to glow with the segmented iron brake shoes they have. My brake system gets lots of attention. And since I started using the Ford brake fluid. I've never boiled my brake fluid under these extreme conditions.Bob Dunahugh78 RoyaleMember GMCMI for 13 years
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296220 is a reply to message #296215] |
Fri, 26 February 2016 04:09  |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bob,
You might change your mind about Ford Heavy Duty Dot 3 after you read this article:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/dot-4-brake-fluid/p52838-pg-1.html
Double Trouble currently has ATE TYP 200 which will be flushed to ATE Super Blue Racing when I get back to the USA in March. ATE
recommends flushing their fluid every three years, however, Double Trouble has had the TYP 200 in it for five.
Unfortunately the DOT has stopped ATE from selling Super Blue Racing because it looks like silicone brake fluid which is purple and
people might get them confuse.
In their infinite wisdom they create DOT 5.1 which is Glycol based and NOT compatible with DOT 5. I find it fascinating that the DOT
was concerned that blue might be confused by people, however, DOT 5 and 5.1 not being compatible wouldn't confuse people!
HOORAY FOR BUREAUCRATS!
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Bob Dunahugh
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 2:48 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains
Sorry about some boring details. But it tells what's up with brake fluids. And your safety. There is a minimum federal boiling
point requirement for DOT 3 brake fluid. This is the standard brake fluid for most brake fluid requirements. The minimum boiling
point that's required for DOT 3 brake fluid is 284 degrees F. When brake fluid boils in your braking system. This occurs in the
mountains. Or heavy traffic with lots of slowing down with stops. You braking system will fail to function completely. There will be
NO warning that this situation is starting to occur. ( As a side note. This is why your brake lines to the rear are in the left
frame rail. And the hot exhaust pipe is in the right frame rail. ) These standards are based on brake fluids that are considered
wet, or dry. Dry DOT 3 fluid is what's poured out of a just opened container. Wet is based on used brake fluids that have absorbed
water to a level of 3.7% of water by volume. Standard Dot 3 is Wet 284 F. Dry 401 F.Ford High Performance is Wet 284 F. ( to meet
the standard ) Dry 500 F.
Ford developed this High Performance brake fluid in the 80's. As they were having brake boiling issues. Thus complete brake
failures on truck chassis that had motor homes built on them. You can only buy it at Ford dealerships. And most parts counter
personnel will have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. There is no part # on the container. It's front label is mostly
red. So you'll just have to have them find it under the name High Performance brake fluid.I love my wife Linda, dog Delilah, our
GMC, and ME. So I use the Ford DOT 3 brake fluid, and change my brake fluid about every 5 years. I've had people tell me that brake
fluid never needs to be changed. That's fine. But to me. Is it worth the risk to save $15, and 1 hour of time.As a side note. I do
road racing at tracks around the country with our vintage Yenko Stingers. At some tracks. I have my brake drum's starting to glow
with the segmented iron brake shoes they have. My brake system gets lots of attention. And since I started using the Ford brake
fluid. I've never boiled my brake fluid under these extreme conditions.Bob Dunahugh78 RoyaleMember GMCMI for 13 years
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296233 is a reply to message #296215] |
Fri, 26 February 2016 10:48 |
BobDunahugh
Messages: 2465
Registered: October 2010
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Karma: 11
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rob. I looked that info over. And the Ford brake fluid is doing the job of not getting me into a situation of losing my brakes when I'll need my brakes the most. It's a simple safety improvement issue. That is my main point. Yes. There are other DOT 3 products out there that can improve our chances of getting home alive. Use any of the other DOT 3's you choose. As they all absorb moisture quickly. That's part of the job that they're supposed to do of stopping the collection of water in single places. I see no reason to change to something else in my track cars, or GMC. I have two main reasons for the Ford produce. ( And it is sold under the Motorcraft brand name. And is also called High Performance Brake Fluid.) 1. It's doing the job I need done. 2. I can get it when I'm on the road in a town that has a Walmart 3 bars, 2 gas station, 5 churches, and a post office that the other brands of fluid can be shipped to you from Chicago in 2 days. And that's if that small town even has the internet. As they have no Auto Zone store. But there will be a Ford dealership close by. They'll have it. The counter personnel just don't know why it's different. Then at parts stores that handle Motorcraft products. But that small town didn't have the Auto Zone store.Bob Dunahugh
From: yenko108@hotmail.com
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2016 21:48:07 -0600
Sorry about some boring details. But it tells what's up with brake fluids. And your safety. There is a minimum federal boiling point requirement for DOT 3 brake fluid. This is the standard brake fluid for most brake fluid requirements. The minimum boiling point that's required for DOT 3 brake fluid is 284 degrees F. When brake fluid boils in your braking system. This occurs in the mountains. Or heavy traffic with lots of slowing down with stops. You braking system will fail to function completely. There will be NO warning that this situation is starting to occur. ( As a side note. This is why your brake lines to the rear are in the left frame rail. And the hot exhaust pipe is in the right frame rail. ) These standards are based on brake fluids that are considered wet, or dry. Dry DOT 3 fluid is what's poured out of a just opened container. Wet is based on used brake fluids that have absorbed water to a level of 3.7% of water by volume. Standard Dot 3 is Wet 284 F. Dry 401 F.Ford High Performance is Wet 284 F. ( to meet the standard ) Dry 500 F.
Ford developed this High Performance brake fluid in the 80's. As they were having brake boiling issues. Thus complete brake failures on truck chassis that had motor homes built on them. You can only buy it at Ford dealerships. And most parts counter personnel will have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. There is no part # on the container. It's front label is mostly red. So you'll just have to have them find it under the name High Performance brake fluid.I love my wife Linda, dog Delilah, our GMC, and ME. So I use the Ford DOT 3 brake fluid, and change my brake fluid about every 5 years. I've had people tell me that brake fluid never needs to be changed. That's fine. But to me. Is it worth the risk to save $15, and 1 hour of time.As a side note. I do road racing at tracks around the country with our vintage Yenko Stingers. At some tracks. I have my brake drum's starting to glow with the segmented iron brake shoes they have. My brake system gets lots of attention. And since I started using the Ford brake fluid. I've never boiled my brake fluid under these extreme conditions.Bob Dunahugh78 RoyaleMember GMCMI for 13 years
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296239 is a reply to message #296215] |
Fri, 26 February 2016 11:33 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
When I go down the only steep grade I get on (Monteagle, TN) I keep the coach speed to about 50. As it picks up to 60, get into the brakes fairly hard and pull it down, then let off to cool them as it gains speed. Never had a fade problem, or a problem slowing the thing down on either side of that mountain. He who rides the brakes down that hill usually ends up on one of the runaway ramps cos the brakes went away.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296309 is a reply to message #296215] |
Sat, 27 February 2016 14:48 |
Emery Stora
Messages: 959
Registered: January 2011
Karma: 4
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Bob
One small correction. Ford did not develop the 550 deg BP brake fluid.
It was developed by The Dow Chemical Company. At the time I was employed by Dow and Ford was one of my automotive customers.
Dow sold the fluid to Ford and to Castrol and to EIS automotive and several others.
Dow was the world’s largest produced of brake fluids. Union Carbide was second. Since then Dow has bought Union Carbide but sold then their automotive chemicals division but still manufacture the glycols and poly glycols that go into brake fluids.
If you go into an auto parts store and look at labels you can find others that show a 550 deg boiling point and sometimes a little higher. These are also acceptable to use.
That is called the dry boiling point. You are correct that when fluids absorb water from the air their boiling point drops to the “wet” boiling point. However when you start with a higher dry b.p. the wet b.p. also stays a bit higher.
Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO
> On Feb 25, 2016, at 8:48 PM, Bob Dunahugh wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sorry about some boring details. But it tells what's up with brake fluids. And your safety. There is a minimum federal boiling point requirement for DOT 3 brake fluid. This is the standard brake fluid for most brake fluid requirements. The minimum boiling point that's required for DOT 3 brake fluid is 284 degrees F. When brake fluid boils in your braking system. This occurs in the mountains. Or heavy traffic with lots of slowing down with stops. You braking system will fail to function completely. There will be NO warning that this situation is starting to occur. ( As a side note. This is why your brake lines to the rear are in the left frame rail. And the hot exhaust pipe is in the right frame rail. ) These standards are based on brake fluids that are considered wet, or dry. Dry DOT 3 fluid is what's poured out of a just opened container. Wet is based on used brake fluids that have absorbed water to a level of 3.7% of water by volume. Standard Dot 3 is Wet 284 F.
> Dry 401 F.Ford High Performance is Wet 284 F. ( to meet the standard ) Dry 500 F.
> Ford developed this High Performance brake fluid in the 80's. As they were having brake boiling issues. Thus complete brake failures on truck chassis that had motor homes built on them. You can only buy it at Ford dealerships. And most parts counter personnel will have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. There is no part # on the container. It's front label is mostly red. So you'll just have to have them find it under the name High Performance brake fluid.I love my wife Linda, dog Delilah, our GMC, and ME. So I use the Ford DOT 3 brake fluid, and change my brake fluid about every 5 years. I've had people tell me that brake fluid never needs to be changed. That's fine. But to me. Is it worth the risk to save $15, and 1 hour of time.As a side note. I do road racing at tracks around the country with our vintage Yenko Stingers. At some tracks. I have my brake drum's starting to glow with the segmented iron brake shoes they have. My brake system gets lots of attention.
> And since I started using the Ford brake fluid. I've never boiled my brake fluid under these extreme conditions.Bob Dunahugh78 RoyaleMember GMCMI for 13 years
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296311 is a reply to message #296298] |
Sat, 27 February 2016 15:21 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ken,
WOW what a great find!
I sorted on the wet boiling point and it appears that ATE Typ 200 / ATE Super Blue Racing Fluid are NOT as high on the list as I
thought.
I noted that this chart credits the DOT with stopping the sale (US DOT cease and desist).
Unfortunately when I clicked on the little circled i next to the ATE fluids the link doesn't work. I checked several others and the
same thing happens.
I am going to plagiarize this chart and send it in under the Subject: Brake Fluid Comparison so it can be easily found using the GMC
Forum's search function.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Burton
Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2016 2:22 AM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops,and in the Mountains
What you are interested in is the wet boiling point.
DOT3 284F
DOT4 311F
ATE Blue 396F
Ford 290F
https://www.lelandwest.com/brake-fluid-comparison-chart.cfm
--
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296335 is a reply to message #296309] |
Sun, 28 February 2016 06:28 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Rob,
Notice that the wet boiling point difference between DOT 3, DOT 4, and the Ford stuff is not very much. I still use DOT 4 stuff in most things and ATE Blue in my GMC. I have never over heated any vehicle to the point of boiling the fluid, but I feel that the GMC being heavier with the same front brake calipers and pads as a car probably generates more heat and therefore has the greater exposure to the possibility if boiling.
I got an email from a friend saying that there is no DOT 5 listed in the chart. DOT 5 is not Hygroscopic. With DOT 5, any moisture that might enter the system will not be absorbed and spread through the entire system. The moisture will tend to pool or puddle in the low spots of the brake system. Those low spots are subject to freezing in cold weather and if in a brake cylinder or caliper are subject to possible boiling at the boiling point of pure water. DOT 5 is great as long as you change/flush the fluid very frequently like in race track applications. Another place it is good is in museum vehicles that are seldom used. I feel neither of these of applicable to a GMC.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296352 is a reply to message #296335] |
Sun, 28 February 2016 15:57 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Ken,
It's 100°F
Ford C6AZ-19542- DOT 3 - 290(W) 550(D)
ATE Typ 200 - DOT 4 - 396(W) 536(D)
ATE Super Blue -DOT 4 - 396(D) 536(D)
Harley-Davidson agrees with you; "originally" they used DOT 3 but switched to DOT 5 because DOT 3 eats paintwork. They changed back
to DOT 3 awhile back and I "heard" water freezing in the system was the reason. I HAVE NOT read ANY official HD documents attesting
to that.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Burton
Rob,
Notice that the wet boiling point difference between DOT 3, DOT 4, and the Ford stuff is not very much. I still use DOT 4 stuff in
most things and ATE Blue in my GMC. I have never over heated any vehicle to the point of boiling the fluid, but I feel that the GMC
being heavier with the same front brake calipers and pads as a car probably generates more heat and therefore has the greater
exposure to the possibility if boiling.
I got an email from a friend saying that there is no DOT 5 listed in the chart. DOT 5 is not Hygroscopic. With DOT 5, any moisture
that might enter the system will not be absorbed and spread through the entire system. The moisture will tend to pool or puddle in
the low spots of the brake system.
Those low spots are subject to freezing in cold weather and if in a brake cylinder or caliper are subject to possible boiling at the
boiling point of pure water. DOT 5 is great as long as you change/flush the fluid very frequently like in race track applications.
Another place it is good is in museum vehicles that are seldom used. I feel neither of these of applicable to a GMC.
--
Ken
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296359 is a reply to message #296258] |
Sun, 28 February 2016 19:04 |
 |
Richard RV
Messages: 631
Registered: July 2012
Location: Full-timer for 12 years, ...
Karma: -17
|
Senior Member |
|
|
That list is very interesting. I sorted the list by decreasing order of wet boiling point and Motul RBF 600 was near the top of the list and had the lowest price. It's listed as a wet boiling point of 421F. The Motul web site has RBF 600 Factory Line listed as: Wet boiling point 401F(205C).
Probably wise to double check the manufacturer's specifications before buying based solely on that list.
Richard
'77 Birchaven TZE...777;
'76 Palm Beach under construction;
‘76 Edgemont waiting its turn
|
|
|
|
| Re: [GMCnet] Restoration. Make your brakes safer in panic stops, and in the Mountains [message #296367 is a reply to message #296359] |
Sun, 28 February 2016 19:40 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Richard,
ABSOLUTELY CHECK THE MFG'S SPECS!
A fair number of the brake fluids listed are for RACING vehicles NOT street vehicles! IIRC when I was looking for the best DOT 4 I
found some that the manufacturer recommend it be changed at the end of a weekends racing.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Richard
That list is very interesting. I sorted the list by decreasing order of wet boiling point and Motul RBF 600 was near the top of the
list and had the lowest price. It's listed as a wet boiling point of 421F. The Motul web site has RBF 600 Factory Line listed as:
Wet boiling point 401F(205C).
Probably wise to double check the manufacturer's specifications before buying based solely on that list.
Richard
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Sun Oct 06 13:30:35 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.00981 seconds
|
GMCforum
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
