Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Roller cams revisited
Roller cams revisited [message #295906] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 17:42 |
KB
Messages: 1262 Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Looks like we'll have to replace the cam in our engine, so now I'm shopping cam kits.
So what, exactly, do you have to do to make a roller cam kit work? I've read something about
grinding the lifters somehow, but that's about it.
I know the roller cams/lifters are a lot more expensive, but I'm hoping for longevity
(at least more than our last two engines had).
If I can't do rollers, then I'm thinking the Comp Cams 42-207-4, which if I understand it
is the one JimB developed.
thanks,
Karen
1975 26' yard ornament
|
|
|
Re: Roller cams revisited [message #295914 is a reply to message #295906] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 18:19 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
if you've been through two flat tappet 455s in short mileage, you need to figure out why. Properly broken in and run on oil with sufficient zinc compounds, they ought to run about six forevers. If your rebuilder is using lifters from India and cams from the heathen chinee, all bets are off. If the failed engine were built with OEM or better components, I'd go find out why they died. Roller lifters do in fact reduce fristion substantially, a concern more at stratospheric RPMs than the speeds these coaches turn them. The gurus maintain that the flat tappet engines want oil with fairly high zinc concentration, they're available and have been much discussed here.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
Re: Roller cams revisited [message #295934 is a reply to message #295914] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 20:47 |
KB
Messages: 1262 Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
The first engine problem was bearing damage after only about 12K miles.
It's only this second engine that has the wiped out cam. The evidence suggests
it happened at break-in. Don't know if the failure was my doing or
a bad quality camshaft, but it doesn't matter now since it's out of warranty.
I used the BR break-in oil provided, changed it twice (at 200 and 1500 miles) before going to regular oil.
For that, I always run quality oil plus extra zddp with oil and filter changes about every 3K miles.
The cam was an Elgin E976P. It was supposed to be equivalent to the Melling MTO-1 RV cam,
but probably isn't. Got about 8500 miles on this rebuild before figuring it out.
thanks,
Karen
1975 26' yard ornament
Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 21 February 2016 16:19if you've been through two flat tappet 455s in short mileage, you need to figure out why. Properly broken in and run on oil with sufficient zinc compounds, they ought to run about six forevers. If your rebuilder is using lifters from India and cams from the heathen chinee, all bets are off. If the failed engine were built with OEM or better components, I'd go find out why they died. Roller lifters do in fact reduce fristion substantially, a concern more at stratospheric RPMs than the speeds these coaches turn them. The gurus maintain that the flat tappet engines want oil with fairly high zinc concentration, they're available and have been much discussed here.
--johnny
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #295936 is a reply to message #295934] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 21:37 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912 Registered: July 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
G'day,
According to Dick Patterson the cam to use is: COMP Cams DEH 255 42-207-4 cam
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1178&sb=2
It is a flat tappet cam.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: KB
The first engine problem was bearing damage after only about 12K miles.
It's only this second engine that has the wiped out cam. The evidence suggests
it happened at break-in. Don't know if the failure was my doing or
a bad quality camshaft, but it doesn't matter now since it's out of warranty.
I used the BR break-in oil provided, changed it twice (at 200 and 1500 miles) before going to regular oil.
For that, I always run quality oil plus extra zddp with oil and filter changes about every 3K miles.
The cam was an Elgin E976P. It was supposed to be equivalent to the Melling MTO-1 RV cam,
but probably isn't. Got about 8500 miles on this rebuild before figuring it out.
thanks,
Karen
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #295937 is a reply to message #295934] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 21:37 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117 Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
|
Senior Member |
|
|
How about a NEW manny diesel???
On Sunday, February 21, 2016, KB wrote:
> The first engine problem was bearing damage after only about 12K miles.
> It's only this second engine that has the wiped out cam. The evidence
> suggests
> it happened at break-in. Don't know if the failure was my doing or
> a bad quality camshaft, but it doesn't matter now since it's out of
> warranty.
> I used the BR break-in oil provided, changed it twice (at 200 and 1500
> miles) before going to regular oil.
> For that, I always run quality oil plus extra zddp with oil and filter
> changes about every 3K miles.
>
> The cam was an Elgin E976P. It was supposed to be equivalent to the
> Melling MTO-1 RV cam,
> but probably isn't. Got about 8500 miles on this rebuild before figuring
> it out.
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 26' yard ornament
>
>
> Johnny Bridges wrote on Sun, 21 February 2016 16:19
>> if you've been through two flat tappet 455s in short mileage, you need
> to figure out why. Properly broken in and run on oil with sufficient zinc
>> compounds, they ought to run about six forevers. If your rebuilder is
> using lifters from India and cams from the heathen chinee, all bets are off.
>> If the failed engine were built with OEM or better components, I'd go
> find out why they died. Roller lifters do in fact reduce fristion
>> substantially, a concern more at stratospheric RPMs than the speeds
> these coaches turn them. The gurus maintain that the flat tappet engines
> want
>> oil with fairly high zinc concentration, they're available and have been
> much discussed here.
>>
>> --johnny
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #295943 is a reply to message #295938] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 22:59 |
jimk
Messages: 6734 Registered: July 2006 Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen,
We have learned a lot about standard cams and the importance of break in.
First the engine must be primed well.
After that the very critical thing is tath once you start the engine one
must bring it up to 2,000 rpm and keep it there for 20-30 minutes without
sutting it down for any reason.
Dick Patterson has a check off list begor starting an engine.
We have ruined few engine from the get go when we had to abort the run
after 3-10 minutes of run.
The Camshaft apparently goes through a heating/ wearing in process during
that 20 minutes.
That is why Patterson runs in the engine for one hour before he sends his
engine out.
Roller lifters are good for avoiding this problem.
In California, be very careful as to what profile to use as you can find
that it gets very difficult to pass the BAR smog test.
I'm always nervous as a prostitute in church when we break in a rebuilt
engine.
We have put several roller cams with good results. The roller will allow
the valves to open at at faster rate and close at the same degree.
Dick P. does not recommend rollers, but I tend to favor it assuming your
aware of what set up to use, otherwise it becomes problem selecting simple
things as valve covers.
I have assisted many on the phone to have a carefree roller set up.
On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 7:43 PM, KB wrote:
> [quote title=Mr ERFisher wrote on Sun, 21 February 2016 19:37]How about a
> NEW manny diesel???
>
> If I could afford it, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
>
> Karen
> 1975 26' yard ornament
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #295972 is a reply to message #295943] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 10:58 |
KB
Messages: 1262 Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Thanks Jim. My concern with the roller cam/lifters is the amount of extra
machining that may be required. We only have our expert help available
for a limited time, so if a bunch of extra work is required, it's just not doable.
As I understand it, it largely depends on which cam kit you get, but I can't
figure out which (if any) would require really minimal work and are good
for our use. Seems like most of the roller kits are more geared toward racing.
thanks,
Karen
jimk wrote on Sun, 21 February 2016 20:59 Karen,
Roller lifters are good for avoiding this problem.
In California, be very careful as to what profile to use as you can find
that it gets very difficult to pass the BAR smog test.
I'm always nervous as a prostitute in church when we break in a rebuilt
engine.
We have put several roller cams with good results. The roller will allow
the valves to open at at faster rate and close at the same degree.
Dick P. does not recommend rollers, but I tend to favor it assuming your
aware of what set up to use, otherwise it becomes problem selecting simple
things as valve covers.
I have assisted many on the phone to have a carefree roller set up.
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #295973 is a reply to message #295972] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 11:06 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen, I am home today. Call me if you have a minute or 20. Lots of
decisions to make about cams, too many myths to count. My number is 503
nine 31 49eighty eight.
Jim Hupy
On Feb 22, 2016 8:59 AM, "KB" wrote:
> Thanks Jim. My concern with the roller cam/lifters is the amount of extra
> machining that may be required. We only have our expert help available
> for a limited time, so if a bunch of extra work is required, it's just not
> doable.
> As I understand it, it largely depends on which cam kit you get, but I
> can't
> figure out which (if any) would require really minimal work and are good
> for our use. Seems like most of the roller kits are more geared toward
> racing.
>
> thanks,
> Karen
>
> jimk wrote on Sun, 21 February 2016 20:59
>> Karen,
>> Roller lifters are good for avoiding this problem.
>> In California, be very careful as to what profile to use as you can find
>> that it gets very difficult to pass the BAR smog test.
>> I'm always nervous as a prostitute in church when we break in a rebuilt
>> engine.
>> We have put several roller cams with good results. The roller will allow
>> the valves to open at at faster rate and close at the same degree.
>> Dick P. does not recommend rollers, but I tend to favor it assuming your
>> aware of what set up to use, otherwise it becomes problem selecting
> simple
>> things as valve covers.
>> I have assisted many on the phone to have a carefree roller set up.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
Re: Roller cams revisited [message #295974 is a reply to message #295906] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 11:19 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412 Registered: May 2011 Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
|
Senior Member |
|
|
There's a concern with anything made of off-shore steel as well, which I found out in brake discs. The metal isn't necessarily of equal hardness throughout. In discs, this leads to high and low spots which are often considered to be out - of - roundness until you take them down to round and the problem recurs. Mike the discs in the lathe and you find them thick and thin. A cheap lifter with one part of the face harder than another is likely to chew up the cam because essentially the contact area is reduced to only the hard spot. How you get around this, beyond buying the best quality you can find, I dunno. The roller lifter would certainly help with the problem.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #295977 is a reply to message #295973] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 12:03 |
jimk
Messages: 6734 Registered: July 2006 Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Only thing you need to do is on two lifters as it hits the bottom of intake.
I'm sure Jim H can walk you through it as he has done several.
Your always welcome to call me to.
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 9:06 AM, James Hupy wrote:
> Karen, I am home today. Call me if you have a minute or 20. Lots of
> decisions to make about cams, too many myths to count. My number is 503
> nine 31 49eighty eight.
> Jim Hupy
> On Feb 22, 2016 8:59 AM, "KB" wrote:
>
>> Thanks Jim. My concern with the roller cam/lifters is the amount of
> extra
>> machining that may be required. We only have our expert help available
>> for a limited time, so if a bunch of extra work is required, it's just
> not
>> doable.
>> As I understand it, it largely depends on which cam kit you get, but I
>> can't
>> figure out which (if any) would require really minimal work and are good
>> for our use. Seems like most of the roller kits are more geared toward
>> racing.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Karen
>>
>> jimk wrote on Sun, 21 February 2016 20:59
>>> Karen,
>>> Roller lifters are good for avoiding this problem.
>>> In California, be very careful as to what profile to use as you can
> find
>>> that it gets very difficult to pass the BAR smog test.
>>> I'm always nervous as a prostitute in church when we break in a rebuilt
>>> engine.
>>> We have put several roller cams with good results. The roller will
> allow
>>> the valves to open at at faster rate and close at the same degree.
>>> Dick P. does not recommend rollers, but I tend to favor it assuming
> your
>>> aware of what set up to use, otherwise it becomes problem selecting
>> simple
>>> things as valve covers.
>>> I have assisted many on the phone to have a carefree roller set up.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
Re: Roller cams revisited [message #295983 is a reply to message #295906] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 14:26 |
bwevers
Messages: 597 Registered: October 2010 Location: San Jose
Karma: 5
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen,
I've been happy with the cam in my new engine.
It's the cam used in the 1983-85 Hurst Olds.
GM# 22519934
I got it off Ebay NOS. Runs good and idles smooth.
Cam
0.440/0.440 lift 196/208 @0.050 lift 109LSA for 83-85
256/270 109LSA
Just my 2 cents.
Bill Wevers GMC49ers, GMC Western States
1975 Glenbrook - Manny Powerdrive, OneTon
455 F Block, G heads
San Jose
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #295985 is a reply to message #295972] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 15:10 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912 Registered: July 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen,
A photo is worth a thousand words so:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/modified-roller-tappets/p60079-modifed-lifters-a.html
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: KB
Thanks Jim. My concern with the roller cam/lifters is the amount of extra
machining that may be required. We only have our expert help available
for a limited time, so if a bunch of extra work is required, it's just not doable.
As I understand it, it largely depends on which cam kit you get, but I can't
figure out which (if any) would require really minimal work and are good
for our use. Seems like most of the roller kits are more geared toward racing.
thanks,
Karen
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
Re: Roller cams revisited [message #295986 is a reply to message #295983] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 15:38 |
jhb1
Messages: 303 Registered: February 2004
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Hi Karen
I am running JimB's (Koba) flat tappet cam 45000 miles so far without problems with stamped steel roller tip rockers I am happy with the performance seems to have a little more bottom end torque but that is just my feeling
HTH
John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
|
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #296008 is a reply to message #296007] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 21:00 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806 Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
|
Senior Member |
|
|
No, the lifters are tied together at the tops to keep the rollers aligned
with the cam lobes. That makes the lifter bodies longer, they project up
out of the lifter bores, and in some cases, interfere with the bottom of
the intake manifold. Hence the machine work necessary to provide clearance.
Obviously, special shorter pushrods are involved for all 16 roller lifters.
Degree the cam for absolute certainty that there are no interference
issues. Not a plug 'n play deal.
Jim Hupy
On Feb 22, 2016 6:37 PM, "KB" wrote:
> OK, I'm confused (as usual...) Why do you have to modify the lifters?
> If it's a clearance issue, couldn't you use shorter pushrods?
> Or is it to keep the end of the pushrods aligned in the lifters?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
> 1975 yard ornament
>
> USAussie wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 13:10
>> Karen,
>>
>> A photo is worth a thousand words so:
>>
>>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/modified-roller-tappets/p60079-modifed-lifters-a.html
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> The Pedantic Mechanic
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #296009 is a reply to message #296007] |
Mon, 22 February 2016 21:13 |
|
USAussie
Messages: 15912 Registered: July 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen,
I have edited the photos, are they clear now?
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6910-modified-roller-tappets.html
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: KB
OK, I'm confused (as usual...) Why do you have to modify the lifters?
If it's a clearance issue, couldn't you use shorter pushrods?
Or is it to keep the end of the pushrods aligned in the lifters?
thanks,
Karen
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #296019 is a reply to message #296009] |
Tue, 23 February 2016 01:16 |
jimk
Messages: 6734 Registered: July 2006 Location: Belmont, CA
Karma: 9
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Karen is one sharp person, once she sees the roller tappets she will
immediately see and know why we need to grind the upper portion of the
extra long lifter.
She understands mechanical better than most men , but very beautiful Lady
as well.
I always run out of my office to see and flirt with her too.
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Robert Mueller
wrote:
> Karen,
>
> I have edited the photos, are they clear now?
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6910-modified-roller-tappets.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: KB
>
> OK, I'm confused (as usual...) Why do you have to modify the lifters?
> If it's a clearance issue, couldn't you use shorter pushrods?
> Or is it to keep the end of the pushrods aligned in the lifters?
>
> thanks,
> Karen
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
--
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC, Fremont,CA
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
http://www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
Jim Kanomata
Applied/GMC
jimk@appliedairfilters.com
www.appliedgmc.com
1-800-752-7502
|
|
|
Re: [GMCnet] Roller cams revisited [message #296028 is a reply to message #296019] |
Tue, 23 February 2016 10:02 |
KB
Messages: 1262 Registered: September 2009
Karma: 0
|
Senior Member |
|
|
Jeez Jim, now when people meet me they're going to think "What on earth was he talking about!?"
If you'd said I was dimwitted, old as the hills, and ugly as sin, they might think "feh, she ain't *that* bad..."
But, we're digressing...
jimk wrote on Mon, 22 February 2016 23:16Karen is one sharp person, once she sees the roller tappets she will
immediately see and know why we need to grind the upper portion of the
extra long lifter.
She understands mechanical better than most men , but very beautiful Lady
as well.
I always run out of my office to see and flirt with her too.
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Thu Oct 03 06:13:10 CDT 2024
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01208 seconds
|