Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Self defense in our coaches (just a caution)
| Self defense in our coaches [message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 13:55  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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I didn't want to hijack the current thread any more than it already is but have something to say. There are many folks in this community and other RV communities that have firearms in their coaches. I have no problem whatsoever with this.
What I do have a concern with is folks using a firearm in a defense situation that really have no idea how to use it and little chance they will hit what they intend to hit, especially in a stress situation. A jacketed bullet of almost any caliber from 380 up will easily go through your motorhome and a couple more before it expends enough energy to stop unless you are lucky enough to hit one of the more substantial components like rib or fridge. A missed shot could easily end up somewhere you did not intend with bad results for all concerned.
If you own a firearm, please, PLEASE get some training and experience. If nothing else, buy a couple boxes of bullets and go to the local range and shoot some cardboard. If you can't put holes in center mass at 10' you might want to rethink things. Training is available most everywhere.
And please be aware of the gun laws of where you are going to be traveling. I won't be going to NJ and several other states on general principals.
As far as firearms alternatives go, investigate wasp spray. 20' stream, instantly incapacitating, legal most states afaik.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295838 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 14:17  |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Note that one of my primary concerns was projectile penetration. It's another reason I don't like handguns. How many Itascas could a 9mm penetrate before stopping? Dunno, but I'd bet it'd be a few.
Note2 the shot weight order I spec'd. Birdshot first. In a 410. Might raise a welp at 100yd. (#6 @ 180yds in the neck and face from a 12ga, 30" full choke does break the skin. I was on the receiving end. Ouch!)
3 shells should be plenty. 2 really.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches [message #295840 is a reply to message #295838] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 14:49 |
Guy Lopes
Messages: 499
Registered: April 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Karma: 3
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RC, You HOPE 2 or 3 shells should be enough. No way to know...
Guy Lopes
76 Birchaven "Orion"
Sacramento, CA
W6TOL
www.GMC-Guy.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of RC
Jordan
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 12:17 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches
Note that one of my primary concerns was projectile penetration. It's
another reason I don't like handguns. How many Itascas could a 9mm
penetrate before stopping? Dunno, but I'd bet it'd be a few.
Note2 the shot weight order I spec'd. Birdshot first. In a 410. Might
raise a welp at 100yd. (#6 @ 180yds in the neck and face from a 12ga, 30"
full choke does break the skin. I was on the receiving end. Ouch!)
3 shells should be plenty. 2 really.
--
77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
Elizabeth City, NC
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Guy Lopes
76 Birchaven "Orion"
Sacramento, CA
W6TOL
www.GMC-Guy.com
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295844 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 15:38 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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I'll try to avoid a firefight, heh.
If anyone is interested in the Rossi with the synthetic stock, they are running scarce right now. Get in line. If you have a Circuit Judge and want to replace the stock with a pistol-grip, pm me. I think I have ID'd a $25 one from Hogue that fits well but I'm not yet sure if the overall length of the 'rifle' will be. (30" Calif requirement, I'm told. Fed/most states requirement is 26").
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches [message #295846 is a reply to message #295840] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 15:31 |
<rallymaster
Messages: 361
Registered: May 2014
Karma: 2
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Check the label on your can of wasp spray.
Look for something like: "It is a violation of Federal law to use this
product in a manner inconsistent with the instructions on this label", or
words to that effect.
Squirt an intruder and he will sue your bum off, unless you can convince
the jury that you thought he was an insect type wasp.
On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 12:55:13 -0700 Kerry Pinkerton
writes:
> I didn't want to hijack the current thread any more than it already
> is but have something to say. There are many folks in this
> community and other RV
> communities that have firearms in their coaches. I have no problem
> whatsoever with this.
>
> What I do have a concern with is folks using a firearm in a defense
> situation that really have no idea how to use it and little chance
> they will hit
> what they intend to hit, especially in a stress situation. A
> jacketed bullet of almost any caliber from 380 up will easily go
> through your motorhome
> and a couple more before it expends enough energy to stop unless you
> are lucky enough to hit one of the more substantial components like
> rib or
> fridge. A missed shot could easily end up somewhere you did not
> intend with bad results for all concerned.
>
> If you own a firearm, please, PLEASE get some training and
> experience. If nothing else, buy a couple boxes of bullets and go
> to the local range and
> shoot some cardboard. If you can't put holes in center mass at 10'
> you might want to rethink things. Training is available most
> everywhere.
>
> And please be aware of the gun laws of where you are going to be
> traveling. I won't be going to NJ and several other states on
> general principals.
>
> As far as firearms alternatives go, investigate wasp spray. 20'
> stream, instantly incapacitating, legal most states afaik.
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
>
> 77 Eleganza II, 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny, lots of aluminum
> goodies.
>
> http://www.bdub.net/pinkerton/
>
> '03 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches [message #295847 is a reply to message #295846] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 15:49 |
Guy Lopes
Messages: 499
Registered: April 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Karma: 3
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Haha that's humorous! As the old saying goes, it's better to be tried by 12
than carried by 6. In a fight for life, it's no holds barred.
Guy Lopes
76 Birchaven "Orion"
Sacramento, CA
W6TOL
www.GMC-Guy.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@list.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of
rallymaster@juno.com
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 1:31 PM
To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches
Check the label on your can of wasp spray.
Look for something like: "It is a violation of Federal law to use this
product in a manner inconsistent with the instructions on this label", or
words to that effect.
Squirt an intruder and he will sue your bum off, unless you can convince the
jury that you thought he was an insect type wasp.
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Guy Lopes
76 Birchaven "Orion"
Sacramento, CA
W6TOL
www.GMC-Guy.com
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295850 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 17:04 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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A large dog with a face full of teeth is a pretty good deterrent. When I had dicey plant locations, I loaded the Model 12 (and later the Wingmaster) with #2 or #1 buckshot. It will penetrate a person close up, but the transmitter cabinets of the day will turn it with only a dent. Both guns fit Justin Wilson's description - three shots when the warden is looking, five when he isn't. Mine always had five. I figured the noise and flash would keep the Urban Outdoorsmen from congregating around a fallen comrade. Fortunately, never had to test my theories.
I've also a little Stevens lever action .22 which is loaded with long rifle hollow points. They have surprisingly good smacking power, and you can lever I believe fifteen of them before it's empty.
Remember, jacketed bullets are for poking holes in things. Lead bullets are for killing. If you unlimbered the fowling piece and pointed it, your intent is to kill - or I suggest you're a bit on the stupid side.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295852 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 17:47 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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All the gun/defense writers seem to think everyone is going to react with the cool demeanor of Bond 007. They want 7" patterns for birdshot and 4" for buck at 7 yards. It just ain't going to happen for most of us. After snagging the front sight on the underwear in the drawer where it's stored, I (and Average Joe) be lucky to get it pointed sorta-kinda in the right direction. At 7 yards and under extreme stress, I'd bet the average overall grouping for a homeowner handgun wouldn't stay within 4ft x 4ft. So, I'll tune the .410 by removing the choke and putting in the thread protector. Birdshot pattern is said to be 24" at 7 yds. Seems about right. Closer than that, it'll make a big hole in something --hopefully, the target.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches [message #295855 is a reply to message #295852] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 18:02 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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What sort of "pattern" can one expect from a Judge with the shell load of several .36 cal. pellets?
Mac in OKC
Sent from my iPhone
On Feb 20, 2016, at 17:48, RC Jordan wrote:
All the gun/defense writers seem to think everyone is going to react with the cool demeanor of Bond 007. They want 7" patterns for birdshot and 4" for
buck at 7 yards. It just ain't going to happen for most of us. After snagging the front sight on the underwear in the drawer where it's stored, I (and
Average Joe) be lucky to get it pointed sorta-kinda in the right direction. At 7 yards and under extreme stress, I'd bet the average overall grouping
for a homeowner handgun wouldn't stay within 4ft x 4ft. So, I'll tune the .410 by removing the choke and putting in the thread protector. Birdshot
pattern is said to be 24" at 7 yds. Seems about right. Closer than that, it'll make a big hole in something --hopefully, the target.
--
77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295857 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 19:01 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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Judge SS Mag, 4" barrel:
"The 000 shot performed extremely well on both penetration and pattern. As expected the pattern at 15 feet was under 5 inches in diameter."
http://www.survivalreviews.com/reviews/reviewsguns/154-taurus
Taurus Judge Public Defender, 2" barrel:
"At 15 feet or less, the pattern will easily fit within a 6-inch diameter circle. Even at 35 feet, nearly all of the pellets can be kept within a standard silhouette target"
http://www.shootingillustrated.com/articles/2010/10/1/taurus-judge-public-defender/
Judge Poly, 2" barrel:
"barely on the target at 7 yards. ...the target had better be very close."
https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/taurus-judge-pdx1-gun-review-ballistics/
S&W Governor, 2.5" barrel:
"Federal's 'Revolver' 000 Buckshot loads are both effective and cost-efficient. With a center hold, groups like this single headshot can be yours at dining-room distances. The four 73-grain .36 caliber pellets consistently hit within four inches of each other."
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/chris-dumm/gun-review-sw-governor-take-two/
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295859 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 19:33 |
rcjordan
Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...
Karma: 1
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If Mac/anyone is interested in patterns and loads for 45/410s, this thread is a good, fun read. Example:
A "woman in my hometown shot her boyfriend 5 times with .410 shot from out of a Judge...she pistol-whipped him when she ran out. He survived with minor injuries.
A woman shot an intruder in the face 5 times with a 38 Special a while back, and he ran away!
It's where you hit, not how many times. In the case of the Judge, you can add what you hit with as well as how close you are. #7 1/2 shot at 10 yards will make somebody really mad. At 10 feet, it's gonna hurt like hell. But at ten inches there is going to be a big, profusely leaking hole!
Up the shot size to 000 Buckshot, and those profusely leaking holes are going to be made from a lot further away!"
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-555782.html
I lean to 4 BUCK (not shot) over 000, 8 pellets instead of 3 or 4 in a 2.5" shell.
SOLD 77 Royale Coachmen Side Dry Bath
76 Birchaven Coachmen Side Wet Bath
76 Eleganza
Elizabeth City, NC
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| Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches [message #295861 is a reply to message #295859] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 19:58 |
 |
USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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RC,
This is what I have in my Judge:
https://youtu.be/NXHzFntUAp4
Nuff said?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: RC Jordan
If Mac/anyone is interested in patterns and loads for 45/410s, this thread is a good, fun read. Example:
A "woman in my hometown shot her boyfriend 5 times with .410 shot from out of a Judge...she pistol-whipped him when she ran out. He
survived with minor injuries.
A woman shot an intruder in the face 5 times with a 38 Special a while back, and he ran away!
It's where you hit, not how many times. In the case of the Judge, you can add what you hit with as well as how close you are. #7 1/2
shot at 10 yards will make somebody really mad. At 10 feet, it's gonna hurt like hell. But at ten inches there is going to be a big,
profusely leaking hole!
Up the shot size to 000 Buckshot, and those profusely leaking holes are going to be made from a lot further away!"
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-555782.html
I lean to 4 BUCK (not shot) over 000, 8 pellets instead of 3 or 4 in a 2.5" shell.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295862 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 20:22 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Senior Member |
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My point is, that unless you are competent with whatever you plan on using for self defense, you are possibly a greater danger to yourself and others than you are to an attacker. Get out and get some practice and make sure you know how to use the thing...whatever it is.
Regarding the wasp spray being illegal, it'd have to be a pretty lame lawyer that couldn't come up with the "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, my client had a problem with wasps in her house and happened to have a can of wasp spray nearby with the defendants kicked down her door. She grabbed the first thing she could find to defend herself from possible rape or death" defense. If I lived where it was illegal to utilize my constitutional right to self defense (not that I ever would), I'd take my chances with a jury over appealing to the thugs humanity.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches [message #295864 is a reply to message #295840] |
Sat, 20 February 2016 21:01 |
<rallymaster
Messages: 361
Registered: May 2014
Karma: 2
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I don't think there's a federal law warning on the louisville Slugger,
but the recipient will probably sue if he survives.
On Sun, 21 Feb 2016 12:58:03 +1100 "Robert Mueller"
writes:
> RC,
>
> This is what I have in my Judge:
>
> https://youtu.be/NXHzFntUAp4
>
> Nuff said?
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: RC Jordan
>
> If Mac/anyone is interested in patterns and loads for 45/410s, this
> thread is a good, fun read. Example:
>
> A "woman in my hometown shot her boyfriend 5 times with .410 shot
> from out of a Judge...she pistol-whipped him when she ran out. He
> survived with minor injuries.
>
> A woman shot an intruder in the face 5 times with a 38 Special a
> while back, and he ran away!
>
> It's where you hit, not how many times. In the case of the Judge,
> you can add what you hit with as well as how close you are. #7 1/2
> shot at 10 yards will make somebody really mad. At 10 feet, it's
> gonna hurt like hell. But at ten inches there is going to be a big,
> profusely leaking hole!
>
> Up the shot size to 000 Buckshot, and those profusely leaking holes
> are going to be made from a lot further away!"
>
> http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-555782.html
>
> I lean to 4 BUCK (not shot) over 000, 8 pellets instead of 3 or 4 in
> a 2.5" shell.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>
Ron & Linda Clark
North Plains, ORYGUN
78 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Self defense in our coaches [message #295911 is a reply to message #295879] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 17:50 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Jim,
Let's say the aggressor gets arrested but found not guilty, would that not leave you open to be sued?
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
-----Original Message-----
From: Jim Galbavy
Sue on what grounds. If he/she was the aggressor and you were only defending yourself.
Even with wasp spray, what Federal law have you violated? An EPA? I know when I took
the Carry To Conceal class there are many gray areas. I also know that people will attempt
a friviol (sp?) law suit on any trumped up reason. I guess that means that you don't
leave an aggressor to fight another day or never take a knife to a gun fight. When your
life is on the line you just have to use "reasonable deadly force" and come out alive.
I am not making light of this discussion. I would revert back to the riot control training
that I got in the army. Once you have gained total control you stop. Once you have the
aggressor under complete control (that's your call), there is no reason to unload 2 mags
into him/her. Of course, triggers have been known to stick.
Just my 2 cents.
jim
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Self defense in our coaches [message #295917 is a reply to message #295837] |
Sun, 21 February 2016 18:31 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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For the accuracy of pistols when adrenalin is at maximum, I offer the following facts:
One of our jocks got into a heated discussion with a patron at a club where a remote broadcast was running. They repaired to the well lighted parking lot, as did two Atlanta policement on security duty. Our guy and the police had 9MM Glock pistols. The Other Guy had something equal, I know not what, may well of been another Glock. Over about a minute, 48 shots were fired - at least the police report listed 48 empty 9MM brass. Our jock was hit once in the toe. No one else was scratched.
Moral - when everyone is amped up, no one could hit a bull in the ass with a bass fiddle. Wounds in such a melee are spurious. Take your scattergun for protection, alls you have to do is kind of point it, and it requires no permit in much of this country.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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