Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters
| WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295150] |
Fri, 05 February 2016 23:02  |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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There was some discussing here a few weeks ago so I thought you might be interesed in the following. We have been doing some the testing and troubleshooting on 2.4 gig (WiFi) bridges and APs.
We had a new hangar constructed in our .7 mile line of sight path between a remote hangar and the main access point a the airport. While the AP antenna could still be seen (slightly) this remote location's reliability went really bad. I have used that path for many years with great success. I was not sure if the new hangar was the cause of our problems or not.
The transmitting AP antenna is a patch antenna located about 30 feet in the air on the side of an all steel building and I can not get to it without a bucket truck so I was trying everything else before I blamed it on the main AP antenna. If I ever go up there again I will install a 5 gig plus the a new 2.4 antenna.
I have had a lot of experience with Cisco gear and that is what I installed there years ago. I first replaced the remote Cisco bridge. It made no difference. I replaced the remote Yagi with some cheap ebay yagi. It made no difference. I told the guy not to buy it but he would not listen. I then replaced the host Cisco AP with an upgraded Cisco. No difference.
As as a test I borrowed an EnGenius ENS202EXT and mounted in on a tripod about 6 feet off of the ground. This is an outdoor unit with power and signal coming up the ethernet cable so there is no antenna loss between the AP / Bridge and the antenna(s). I moved the tripod about 6 feet away from the remote hangar and everything came in perfectly. We had increased speeds over the original stuff because I had previously upgraded the AP host end Cisco.
I then told the owner to order an Engenius ($80) and I would return the one I borrowed. He said, "OH my kid sells Ubiquity I'll get one from him." I objected but the did it anyway. I installed the Ubiquity on the test tripod and immediately saw a 6 dbm drop in signal levels both ways. He then decided to mount the Ubiquity on a pole off of the top of the building instead of the side mount we previously had used. He and his kid mounted the pole moved a TV antenna to it, ran 2 outdoor Ethernet cables and one TV coax up to it, and installed the Ubiquity near the top of mast. We had a very good line of sight from there to the main AP. I was shocked to find a very poor signal quality but reasonable signal strength from there to the main AP in both directions. We moved the remote up and down the pole trying to find a better location. Any way, this thing would run intermittently but signal quality would go from 98 % down to 15% for no reason. He finally got another Ubiquity and installed it. It did exactly the same thing. We left it running and 2 days later the power supply burned up. Since we had two we replaced it. That made no difference. He said well the cable up the mast must be shorted. I disagreed but agreed to stay on the ground while he went up with a cable tester. It tested fine.
He finally came down out of the cold wind and asked what do we do now. I said go up there again and plug in the EnGenius (I hadn't returned it yet) and mount it in the exact same spot on the mast. He did it and we have been running error free with line quality values in the high 90's at 48 mbps speeds for 3 days now. We are also seeing the same 6 dbm gain in both directions that we saw when I tested it originally on the outside 6 foot tripod. We are using the standard 5 dbm antennas supplied with the unit, not the 15 dbm yagi that I had used for many years on the side of the hangar.
So out of all of this and several weeks of off and on of troubleshooting, I am recommending the EnGenius ENS202 or ENS202EXT for people that are trying to extend a WIFI hop to a garage or neighbor or anything like that.
It definitely is a superior unit to the Ubiquity Pico Station and is only $15 or so dollars more expensive. Also the EnGenius has several additional features that the Ubiquity does not have. This unit will act as an Access Point, a bridge, or a repeater. We are getting a solid 48 mbps on 802.11G with the standard rubber duck 5 dbm antennas that came with it. The difference between the ENS202 and the ENS202EXT is the ENS202 has internal 8 dbm antennas while the ENS202EXT has a pair of 5 dbm external antennas that can be removed and replaced with higher gain or directional antennas. This thing will do 802.11 B, G, N and supports MIMO antennas.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295157 is a reply to message #295150] |
Sat, 06 February 2016 03:29  |
Olly Schmidt
Messages: 1265
Registered: February 2014
Location: Germany and Scottsville, ...
Karma: 8
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Ken,
thanks for the detailed write-up. Very enlightening. I, too, have some
Ubiquiti stuff installed (inhouse) to cover a larger area, and quite
like them. For larger distances I never tried them, but will, if the
need arises, look at the EnGenius.
You never know what you learn in an automobile related group :)
--
Best regards
Peer Oliver Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x83E1C2EA
'76a Eleganza II, VA
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Best regards
Olly Schmidt
PGP Key ID: 0x18a9 3a1f 4196 bf22
'76a Eleganza II, VA
'73 Sequoia, SH, Germany
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| Re: [GMCnet] WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295159 is a reply to message #295157] |
Sat, 06 February 2016 04:15 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I can not pass judgment on other products from these two vendors, but in this case we did a lot of testing of the two under various conditions (cold, warm, clear, rain, and snow and around and through obstructions). I also did not include in the original posting, the testing we did using patch and yagi antennas.
I usually use Cisco gear so most of my experience is with their wireless products. In this case the EnGenius matched the performance of the much more expensive Cisco gear.
We also have some unique problems due to the rows of all steel buildings. There are also other various entities on and near the airport using the 2.4 gig WiFi band causing interference to our long range stuff. We do have some of the longer range stuff running 5 gig, but most visiting pilots have 2.4 stuff. We try to provide coverage inside their airplanes when parked on our ramp. Inside the terminal, I have both 2.4 and 5 gig free open access available for all visitors.
I also have a separate secure private network for airport internal business. We are talking about extending the private network to cover the mobile gas and jet A delivery trucks. I have not decided exactly how we will actually do this yet. I'm thinking probably on 802.11a (5 gig) with 3 repeater sites along the main runway (7000 feet).
So this is a little more complex that you will find in the average home and running cable or fiber in most cases is cost prohibitive.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295529 is a reply to message #295159] |
Sun, 14 February 2016 15:10 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Senior Member |
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I bought the genus but it is very confusing on how to wire it to just
extend my wife
On Saturday, February 6, 2016, Ken Burton wrote:
> I can not pass judgment on other products from these two vendors, but in
> this case we did a lot of testing of the two under various conditions (cold,
> warm, clear, rain, and snow and around and through obstructions). I also
> did not include in the original posting, the testing we did using patch and
> yagi antennas.
>
> I usually use Cisco gear so most of my experience is with their wireless
> products. In this case the EnGenius matched the performance of the much
> more
> expensive Cisco gear.
>
> We also have some unique problems due to the rows of all steel buildings.
> There are also other various entities on and near the airport using the
> 2.4 gig WiFi band causing interference to our long range stuff. We do
> have some of the longer range stuff running 5 gig, but most visiting pilots
> have 2.4 stuff. We try to provide coverage inside their airplanes when
> parked on our ramp. Inside the terminal, I have both 2.4 and 5 gig free
> open
> access available for all visitors.
>
> I also have a separate secure private network for airport internal
> business. We are talking about extending the private network to cover the
> mobile
> gas and jet A delivery trucks. I have not decided exactly how we will
> actually do this yet. I'm thinking probably on 802.11a (5 gig) with 3
> repeater
> sites along the main runway (7000 feet).
>
> So this is a little more complex that you will find in the average home
> and running cable or fiber in most cases is cost prohibitive.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295531 is a reply to message #295529] |
Sun, 14 February 2016 15:30 |
Mr ERFisher
Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005
Karma: 2
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Gary's says it is hopeless to extend the wife, better try for the wifi
On Sunday, February 14, 2016, gene Fisher wrote:
> I bought the genus but it is very confusing on how to wire it to just
> extend my wife
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Saturday, February 6, 2016, Ken Burton > wrote:
>
>> I can not pass judgment on other products from these two vendors, but in
>> this case we did a lot of testing of the two under various conditions (cold,
>> warm, clear, rain, and snow and around and through obstructions). I also
>> did not include in the original posting, the testing we did using patch and
>> yagi antennas.
>>
>> I usually use Cisco gear so most of my experience is with their wireless
>> products. In this case the EnGenius matched the performance of the much
>> more
>> expensive Cisco gear.
>>
>> We also have some unique problems due to the rows of all steel
>> buildings. There are also other various entities on and near the airport
>> using the
>> 2.4 gig WiFi band causing interference to our long range stuff. We do
>> have some of the longer range stuff running 5 gig, but most visiting pilots
>> have 2.4 stuff. We try to provide coverage inside their airplanes when
>> parked on our ramp. Inside the terminal, I have both 2.4 and 5 gig free
>> open
>> access available for all visitors.
>>
>> I also have a separate secure private network for airport internal
>> business. We are talking about extending the private network to cover the
>> mobile
>> gas and jet A delivery trucks. I have not decided exactly how we will
>> actually do this yet. I'm thinking probably on 802.11a (5 gig) with 3
>> repeater
>> sites along the main runway (7000 feet).
>>
>> So this is a little more complex that you will find in the average home
>> and running cable or fiber in most cases is cost prohibitive.
>> --
>> Ken Burton - N9KB
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> Hebron, Indiana
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
> “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
> -------
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/
> Alternator Protection Cable
> http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
>
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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| Re: [GMCnet] WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295534 is a reply to message #295529] |
Sun, 14 February 2016 17:18 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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What exactly are you trying to accomplish?
In this posting I am assuming that you are trying to use this device remotely and not as an access point.
If the idea is to have all wireless (repeater mode) network then the only wiring you need to do is to supply power to the unit via the supplied power injector and a cat 5 or cat 6 cable. Make the cable whatever length is necessary to reach the from power injector (source) to the repeater.
If the end device is to be Ethernet attached rather than wireless, then configure the thing for "bridge mode" and plug the end user device into the power injector.
Bridge mode runs double the speed of repeater mode because the data does not have to be transmitted over the air twice.
Over the air runs at a maximum of 54 meg (half duplex). The ethernet cable runs 100 meg. (full duplex). Half duplex is like running on a one lane road. Data can only travel one way at a time. In Bridge mode Full duplex runs both directions on a separate 2 lane road simultaneously with the over the air on the one lane road.
If all you are doing is accessing the Internet with your network then the above speeds are probably not important since the Internet access usually averages 5 meg or so and that is the slow spot in your network.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295546 is a reply to message #295150] |
Mon, 15 February 2016 08:04 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
Thanks for the very detailed and informative report.
I was the one who started the rural wifi discussion several weeks ago. Since then I have bought and installed a ubiquity receiver. I have clear line of sight to my neighbor's house less than 300' away. The reception has been slow and inconsistent and with any weather it doesn't work at all. Of course, the weather comes and the signal is lost when I'm away and my wife is home alone.
I'll be buying the Engenius set up as soon as I get back home. I may relocate the receiver to an out building closer to the neighbors house and run a long Ethernet cable to my router.
Thanks again for the information.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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| Re: WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295572 is a reply to message #295150] |
Mon, 15 February 2016 17:01 |
captjack
Messages: 271
Registered: February 2010
Location: Sebastopol, California
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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I'm not sure why the Ubiquity equipment is having problems. I help run a coop wireless group for folks in a remote area who could only get dialup without the radio network we've set up. We have over 100 various Ubiquity radios installed amongst our 50 customers and to the points at which we access the internet, and have found them to be satisfactory and very reliable compared to other units we've used since we set the network up in 2001. I guess I'm saying I wouldn't write them off entirely.
Jack Christensen - K6ROW,
'76 Glenbrook/Clasco - "The Silver Bullet",
Sebastopol, CA
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| Re: WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295574 is a reply to message #295546] |
Mon, 15 February 2016 17:31 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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I am not saying that the Ubiquity will not work. I just found that the Engenius was about 6 db difference in both transmit and receive and worked in our situation where the Ubiquity failed.
So in marginal conditions the Engenius might work when the Ubiquity fails. The Engenius also has the advantage of dual (diversity) antennas and MIMO antennas when trying to run 802.11n.
The Ubiquity you have ought to run 3000 feet. I would be looking at antennas and for path problems. The Engenius is not a magic bullet for other problems like antennas and path issues.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295579 is a reply to message #295578] |
Mon, 15 February 2016 20:27 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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powwerjon wrote on Mon, 15 February 2016 20:14Ken,
I sent you a PM on the EnGenius on some questions that I had.
J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
Newsletter Editor/Publisher
78 Buskirk 30' Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
I just looked in my PM inbox and nothing new is there. Did you by chance send it as an email? I do not have access to my email at the moment to look there. I'll look at email later tonight when I get home and see if there is anything there.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] WiFi access points, bridges, repeaters [message #295583 is a reply to message #295579] |
Mon, 15 February 2016 23:23 |
powwerjon
Messages: 849
Registered: March 2013
Karma: -2
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Senior Member |
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Sent again.
Ken,
I had been following your discussion on wifi and when and bought a EnGenius unit. I though that I ordered a 200 version but it was a 500 unit. Will this work with a 2.5 ghz system or do I need to send it back? If so I need to have some help setting it up.
I would appreciate any help.
J.R. Wright
GMC GreatLaker
Newsletter Editor/Publisher
78 Buskirk 30' Stretch
75 Avion Under Reconstruction
Michigan
> On Feb 15, 2016, at 7:27 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
> powwerjon wrote on Mon, 15 February 2016 20:14
>> Ken,
>> I sent you a PM on the EnGenius on some questions that I had.
>>
>> J.R. Wright
>> GMC GreatLaker
>> Newsletter Editor/Publisher
>> 78 Buskirk 30' Stretch
>> 75 Avion Under Reconstruction
>> Michigan
>
> I just looked in my PM inbox and nothing new is there. Did you by chance send it as an email? I do not have access to my email at the moment to look
> there. I'll look at email later tonight when I get home and see if there is anything there.
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://list.gmcnet.org/mailman/listinfo/gmclist_list.gmcnet.org
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