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| [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290354] |
Sun, 15 November 2015 16:57  |
Advanced Concept Ener
Messages: 112
Registered: December 2014
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I am in the process of installing Honda generator and redoing high current DC wiring from rear though to boost solenoid. I had a 78 Royale 20 years ago and seems to me that boost switch was a maintained switch and not momentary. If the wire from back to front is big enough and protected by a circuit breaker and solenoid contacts can take the current why do I need a momentary contact? I have two 6 v golf cart batteries in series in the back and two 12 v batteries in the front in parallel with a manual isolation switch between them. Any insight into the thinking that went into the design of this system would be helpful.
Jon Darcy ACES
North Jersey 76 stretch, flares, 4 bag, Alcoa's, bunkhouse,MAC Dash
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290355 is a reply to message #290354] |
Sun, 15 November 2015 17:14  |
tphipps
Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL
Karma: 9
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Are you saying that you intend to run a 2 or 4 gauge from the Honda to the boost switch? Common practices is Honda 110 to converter, 12v out from converter to rear battery package. The 12v available from the Honda was designed to recharge the Honda starting battery, and the wire on this circuit is either 12 or 14 gauge. Paul. Of Pinellas fame, recommends cutting the white wire that would go to a small Honda starting battery for charging, and not having it in the circuit in any fashion. He did tell me that putting the Honda 12v into the 12 v RV circuit would cause havoc with the $400 control panel.
Do the heavy gauge run from the rear battery to the boost switch, just as GM did with the Onan.
I don't remember the type of switch used in your model year. Some one will know.
Tom, MS II
2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552
KA4CSG
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290357 is a reply to message #290354] |
Sun, 15 November 2015 17:36 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
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IIRC, the transmodes came with a non-momentary boost switch.
My switch failed at some point before I bought my coach and refused to "switch", so I'm not 100% sure if it was momentary or not. It was an aftermarket switch in a Mac dash.
I recalled reading stories of people driving 50 miles holding their momentary switches (in an emergency) and decided to replace my faulty one with a non-momentary switch... I bought a switch with a "red" painted indicator that is somewhat obvious that it's in the "boost" position.
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
> On Nov 15, 2015, at 2:57 PM, Advanced Concept Energy Solutions wrote:
>
> I am in the process of installing Honda generator and redoing high current DC wiring from rear though to boost solenoid. I had a 78 Royale 20 years ago and seems to me that boost switch was a maintained switch and not momentary. If the wire from back to front is big enough and protected by a circuit breaker and solenoid contacts can take the current why do I need a momentary contact? I have two 6 v golf cart batteries in series in the back and two 12 v batteries in the front in parallel with a manual isolation switch between them. Any insight into the thinking that went into the design of this system would be helpful.
>
> Jon Darcy ACES
> North Jersey 76 stretch, flares, 4 bag, Alcoa's, bunkhouse,MAC Dash
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290607 is a reply to message #290381] |
Thu, 19 November 2015 22:02 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
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With all of the heat I took about having batteries in parallel, I'm surprised to see that people prefer to have a continuous switch rather than momentary.
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290632 is a reply to message #290607] |
Fri, 20 November 2015 10:00 |
Rob
Messages: 651
Registered: November 2013
Location: Victoria, BC
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I prefer things that are manual, rather than automatic. A momentary switch automatically shuts off when you release it.
I'd prefer to make that decision myself - hence my non-momentary switch...
Rob
Victoria, BC
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
On 2015-11-19, at 8:02 PM, Bob de Kruyff wrote:
> With all of the heat I took about having batteries in parallel, I'm surprised to see that people prefer to have a continuous switch rather than
> momentary.
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
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Rob -
Victoria, BC -
76 Royale - Rear Twins/Dry Bath
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290689 is a reply to message #290643] |
Sat, 21 November 2015 19:56 |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 20 November 2015 12:18Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 19 November 2015 23:02With all of the heat I took about having batteries in parallel, I'm surprised to see that people prefer to have a continuous switch rather than momentary.
Bob,
The problem the does not exist with the boost/combiner contactor and the extra wire. The problem with hard parallel jars is simply that if one gets cantankerous, one or both will explode. Lots of people run 12V in parallel and never have a problem. I used to kind of like for owners to do it. That way I got a couple or more emergency clean-up and repair call$ a season. I did alright on those. When the coach was used for work, there was always a shaker can that said,
"Baking soda: For battery spill clean-up and emergency baking."
Matt
Wow Matt. I missed that reply. Doesn't the boost switch place batteries in parallel--many times a fully charged one with a fully discharged one? The push back I got a couple of months ago claimed a certain explosion. Ken B???
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290703 is a reply to message #290689] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 03:40 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 21 November 2015 19:56Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 20 November 2015 12:18Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 19 November 2015 23:02With all of the heat I took about having batteries in parallel, I'm surprised to see that people prefer to have a continuous switch rather than momentary.
Bob,
The problem the does not exist with the boost/combiner contactor and the extra wire. The problem with hard parallel jars is simply that if one gets cantankerous, one or both will explode. Lots of people run 12V in parallel and never have a problem. I used to kind of like for owners to do it. That way I got a couple or more emergency clean-up and repair call$ a season. I did alright on those. When the coach was used for work, there was always a shaker can that said,
"Baking soda: For battery spill clean-up and emergency baking."
Matt
Wow Matt. I missed that reply. Doesn't the boost switch place batteries in parallel--many times a fully charged one with a fully discharged one? The push back I got a couple of months ago claimed a certain explosion. Ken B???
Come on Bob. You are trolling now.
I never said "certain explosion".
Possible explosion, YES.
Certain explosion, NO.
Lots of people run parallel batteries without incident.
It is just that I have seen more than a few that exploded in automotive, computer room UPS, and large electric forklift applications.
In a previous life I worked as a battery tender where we charged huge forklift batteries. When we initially put one charge we stood behind a steel plate barrier in case it let loose. Also each battery had a steel plate enclosure that we put in place with a crane in case one decided to let loose while charging. We probably two or so blow up per year. At any given time we had 15 or so on charge. It was a 24x7 operation and we changed batteries in those forklifts every 8 or 10 hours.
I had one explode while I was sitting on top of it. It eas an International pickup. International put the batteries under the front seat in their 1950's pickups. My daughter had one explode in Mercury Cougar while trying to jump start it. I had a client that had a major explosion in their UPS room because a contractor installed parallel batteries instead of using higher capacity series batteries the way it was designed. I know of one diesel pickup with parallel batteries that had one let loose. I can list you several more instances.
What is the chance of it happening to you? 1 in 50, or 1 in 500? I do not know.
I'll just repeat. Why run the risk?
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290718 is a reply to message #290354] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 09:12 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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The main reason NOT to use the latching switch is if you leave it on ( which you will do by accident at SOME point) it will kill both batteries due to continuous solenoid coil current draw. Then you need to buy new batteries as I would think the solenoid would stay latched down to 8V or so. Essentially dead.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290719 is a reply to message #290354] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 09:14 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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Actually 2 solenoids. The boost solenoid and the breaker shunt solenoid. That is substantial current draw.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290726 is a reply to message #290703] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 11:38 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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How many years (decades?) have GM and Ford (not familiar with Dodge/Ram) been installing dual parallel batteries in the Diesel-powered pickup trucks that they sell? One failure or explosion for every 5,000/10,000/25,000 trucks?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ Since 30 November '53 ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ Member GMCMI and Classics ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
|[ ]~~~[][ ][]\
"--OO--[]---O-"
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 02:40:03 -0700
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> From: n9cv@comcast.net
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch
>
> Bob de Kruyff wrote on Sat, 21 November 2015 19:56
>> Matt Colie wrote on Fri, 20 November 2015 12:18
>>> Bob de Kruyff wrote on Thu, 19 November 2015 23:02
>>>> With all of the heat I took about having batteries in parallel, I'm surprised to see that people prefer to have a continuous switch rather
>>>> than momentary.
>>>
>>> Bob,
>>>
>>> The problem the does not exist with the boost/combiner contactor and the extra wire. The problem with hard parallel jars is simply that if
>>> one gets cantankerous, one or both will explode. Lots of people run 12V in parallel and never have a problem. I used to kind of like for owners
>>> to do it. That way I got a couple or more emergency clean-up and repair call$ a season. I did alright on those. When the coach was used for
>>> work, there was always a shaker can that said,
>>> "Baking soda: For battery spill clean-up and emergency baking."
>>>
>>> Matt
>>
>> Wow Matt. I missed that reply. Doesn't the boost switch place batteries in parallel--many times a fully charged one with a fully discharged one?
>> The push back I got a couple of months ago claimed a certain explosion. Ken B???
>
>
>
> Come on Bob. You are trolling now.
>
> I never said "certain explosion".
> Possible explosion, YES.
> Certain explosion, NO.
> Lots of people run parallel batteries without incident.
>
> It is just that I have seen more than a few that exploded in automotive, computer room UPS, and large electric forklift applications.
>
> In a previous life I worked as a battery tender where we charged huge forklift batteries. When we initially put one charge we stood behind a steel
> plate barrier in case it let loose. Also each battery had a steel plate enclosure that we put in place with a crane in case one decided to let loose
> while charging. We probably two or so blow up per year. At any given time we had 15 or so on charge. It was a 24x7 operation and we changed
> batteries in those forklifts every 8 or 10 hours.
>
> I had one explode while I was sitting on top of it. It eas an International pickup. International put the batteries under the front seat in their
> 1950's pickups. My daughter had one explode in Mercury Cougar while trying to jump start it. I had a client that had a major explosion in their UPS
> room because a contractor installed parallel batteries instead of using higher capacity series batteries the way it was designed. I know of one
> diesel pickup with parallel batteries that had one let loose. I can list you several more instances.
>
> What is the chance of it happening to you? 1 in 50, or 1 in 500? I do not know.
>
> I'll just repeat. Why run the risk?
> --
> Ken Burton - N9KB
> 76 Palm Beach
> Hebron, Indiana
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290731 is a reply to message #290354] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 15:51 |
captjack
Messages: 271
Registered: February 2010
Location: Sebastopol, California
Karma: 1
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I've got another use for the momentary boost switch. I've converted to in-tank electric fuel pumps for serious vapor lock problems in my coach. The pumps are powered when engine oil pressure operates the oil pressure switch which operates a relay providing them their power. The objective is that in the event of a crash, when the engine dies, oil pressure drops and the pumps are turned off so the "meat" doesn't keep cooking. Once this was setup, I realized that I could also use the momentary boost switch to power the relay for the fuel pumps (in addition to the boost function) and fill the carb with fuel when the switch is depressed so the engine doesn't have to crank so long as it would to build up oil pressure, operate the oil pressure switch and turn on the fuel pumps. Works great!
Jack Christensen - K6ROW,
'76 Glenbrook/Clasco - "The Silver Bullet",
Sebastopol, CA
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290734 is a reply to message #290726] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 16:01 |
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Matt Colie
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
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k2gkk wrote on Sun, 22 November 2015 12:38How many years (decades?) have GM and Ford (not familiar with Dodge/Ram) been installing dual parallel batteries in the Diesel-powered pickup trucks that they sell? One failure or explosion for every 5,000/10,000/25,000 trucks?
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
Mac,
Interesting that you should bring that up.
In most of the diesel pickups, the batteries are parallel with a piece of undersize cable. the plan being that when cold starting, you have one battery for preheat and crank and the other for the other essential system like the ECU and fuel pumps that would otherwise come off line with the cranking load.
Matt
Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290740 is a reply to message #290731] |
Sun, 22 November 2015 17:34 |
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Anonymous
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captjack wrote on Sun, 22 November 2015 15:51I've got another use for the momentary boost switch. I've converted to in-tank electric fuel pumps for serious vapor lock problems in my coach. The pumps are powered when engine oil pressure operates the oil pressure switch which operates a relay providing them their power. The objective is that in the event of a crash, when the engine dies, oil pressure drops and the pumps are turned off so the "meat" doesn't keep cooking. Once this was setup, I realized that I could also use the momentary boost switch to power the relay for the fuel pumps (in addition to the boost function) and fill the carb with fuel when the switch is depressed so the engine doesn't have to crank so long as it would to build up oil pressure, operate the oil pressure switch and turn on the fuel pumps. Works great!
that is a good safety circuit and IMO a must when adding electric fuel pumps. I discovered this circuit by accident in an Italian car when I damaged the very low hanging oil pan, lost the oil and when the oil light came on the fuel pump shut off! saved my engine from much worse than a damaged oil pan!
it would also help to prevent a fiery crash and burn and possibly save lives if a fuel line was ruptured and the driver was knocked unconscious because it would stop pumping fuel.
adding aftermarket fuel pumps without this circuit can be very dangerous for this reason.
the way the Italians did it was to add another hot wire from the ignition switch in the start position only. this the powers the fuel pump until the oil switch relay kicks in and as soon as you release the key and the switch springs back to the run position, no more direct power to the pump. edit: BTW, need a diode in this line or the ignition switch might fail to cut the engine off when you turn the key off LOL.
Ive incorporated this circuit into many other cars since I first discovered it. the way you have it is nice too and probably more helpful if/when fuel either drains back (siphons) from the carb float bowl or when the float bowl slowly seeps gas out from sitting long periods.
worth also mentioning that some of the Italian fuel pumps were rotary vein type and had magnetic clutches so you could run two or more together in the same fuel line and only power one and have the other as a back up. this was for racing cars but they used these same pumps individually in some of their street cars as it has a built in regulator. it also wont burn out the pump if the fuel line gets clogged or crimped shut. good for systems with no return line also FWIW
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| Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch [message #290779 is a reply to message #290734] |
Mon, 23 November 2015 11:14 |
k2gkk
Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009
Karma: -8
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Senior Member |
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Hi, Matt.
Thanks for this info. I was not aware of that. It appeared to me that
the connecting cable between the batteries of my 2004 Ford F-250 Diesel
pickup was "full sized." I'm not sure which battery may have been used
for pre-heat and cranking and which was for ECU and fuel pumps.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ Since 30 November '53 ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ Member GMCMI and Classics ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
|[ ]~~~[][ ][]\
"--OO--[]---O-"
> Date: Sun, 22 Nov 2015 15:01:56 -0700
> To: gmclist@list.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Battery Boost Switch
>>>
> k2gkk wrote on Sun, 22 November 2015 12:38
>> How many years (decades?) have GM and Ford (not familiar with > > Dodge/Ram) been installing dual parallel batteries in the Diesel-> > powered pickup trucks that they sell? One failure or explosion > > for every 5,000/10,000/25,000 trucks?
>>
>> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
>> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
>
> Mac,
>
> Interesting that you should bring that up.
> In most of the diesel pickups, the batteries are parallel with a piece of undersize cable. the plan being that when cold starting, you have one
> battery for preheat and crank and the other for the other essential system like the ECU and fuel pumps that would otherwise come off line with the
> cranking load.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
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