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Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283395] Tue, 28 July 2015 14:57 Go to next message
77PBFinland is currently offline  77PBFinland   Finland
Messages: 31
Registered: March 2014
Location: Finland
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Member
Hello fellows!
We have driven couple thousand miles in this summer and coach has worked just fine.
Sunday morning I was cold starting engine on normally method: one pedal push and crank, usually fires right up, nothing happens this time, second push and more cranking, BIG bang and and we don´t have right muffler any more.
First check with plug that we have spark.
Second turned engine on timing marks and open distributor cap and left valve cover, rotor was pointing cyl 1 and valves closed (just eye check, not measured).
Get my timing light it was broken (wht a suprise).
Monday friend came visit with working timing light, we couldn´t find marks with light when cranking.
We tryed also with fresh plugs and other ignition module, won´t start.
Cap nad rotor are not new but looks ok. Also measured pickup coil resistance, it was just under 800 ohms.
Now questions, Cheap and easy first: Module, pickup coil, ignition coil ???
Not so easy: Camshaft timing gear, 44tml original 455 engine, seems that it has never opened.
Am I right that original cam gear is nylon or phenolic or something not steel?
If I need to chance timing gear and chain set could it be done without remowing transmission and oilpan like TSM says ?
If timing has failed what else usually happens in Olds engine, bent push rods or valves. I have not had time to open right valve cover or make compression and by-pass tests.
One thing Í´m happy is that it brokes at home, not 550 miles away like week before... We can´t have insurance that covers towing this size and age vehicles.

Jake


Jarkko Lampinen `77 Palm Beach TZE167V100508 Finland Europe

[Updated on: Tue, 28 July 2015 15:12]

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Re: Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283398 is a reply to message #283395] Tue, 28 July 2015 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbryan   United States
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
Senior Member
Jake,

It's got a timing chain. Seems like the carb or injection system was delivering enough fuel to blow up your muffler, so fuel problems are ruled out. The 455/403, if I remember correctly have metal timing chains and no nylon or plastic substance to flake off on any timing drive surface, so far as I know. Concentrate on distributor/module/coil, and particularly connections, including those chewed by critters like mice. Oxidized ground connections.

Good luck with it.

Carey


Carey from Ennis, Texas 78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
Re: Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283399 is a reply to message #283395] Tue, 28 July 2015 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 7
Senior Member
Jake,

Your diagnostic was right down the road I would have walked.
The only real difference is that the exploding muffler and the "no find" on the timing marks puts me looking for an ignition issue.
What that issue is, will have to be discovered.
It could be the timing chain. It may only have 44e3 miles, but it is close to 40 years. I do not know if the OE was plastic.

You say the rotor was pointed at #1.
Did you crank the engine with the cap off? If there is a problem that effects that, you might have passed seeing it.

You say you saw sparks, if you cranked with all the plugs out, did they all fire in order (as nearly as you can tell)?

Brain stretch here.... (I do not have HEI and have not even looked at one in a long time.)
As I remember (that may be a problem), the HEI coil has a connection that is made by a screw that is threaded into plastic. This is never a good idea as all plastics creep (cold displacement under load). You might open that up and check those connections.

Good Luck,

Matt




77PBFinland wrote on Tue, 28 July 2015 15:57
Hello fellows!
We have driven couple thousand miles in this summer and coach has worked just fine.
Sunday morning I was cold starting engine on normally method: one pedal push and crank, usually fires right up, nothing happens this time, second push and more cranking, BIG bang and and we don´t have right muffler any more.
First check with plug that we have spark.
Second turned engine on timing marks and open distributor cap and left valve cover, rotor was pointing cyl 1 and valves closed (just eye check, not measured).
Get my timing light it was broken (wht a suprise).
Monday friend came visit with working timing light, we couldn´t find marks with light when cranking.
We tryed also with fresh plugs and other ignition module, won´t start.
Cap nad rotor are not new but looks ok. Also measured pickup coil resistance, it was just under 800 ohms.
Now questions, Cheap and easy first: Module, pickup coil, ignition coil ???
Not so easy: Camshaft timing gear, 44tml original 455 engine, seems that it has never opened.
Am I right that original cam gear is nylon or phenolic or something not steel?
If I need to chance timing gear and chain set could it be done without remowing transmission and oilpan like TSM says ?
If timing has failed what else usually happens in Olds engine, bent push rods or valves. I have not had time to open right valve cover or make compression and by-pass tests.
One thing Í´m happy is that it brokes at home, not 550 miles away like week before... We can´t have insurance that covers towing this size and age vehicles.

Jake



Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283403 is a reply to message #283395] Tue, 28 July 2015 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skip2 is currently offline  skip2   United States
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
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Senior Member
Seen it before, hole finally burnt through rotor and now spark is jumping to the shaft . Before it finished off it misfired and got the muffler .Just an easy thing to check .
Skip


74 Canyon Lands, FiTech, 3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny, Springfield Distributor, 2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
Re: Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283426 is a reply to message #283395] Tue, 28 July 2015 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Senior Member
Have a look at that rotor and the carbon button contact from the coil. Yes the ground wire eye for the coil has it's threads in plastic. Check and clean. Be sure the 2 connectors to the cap are firmly seated as the locking tab can be broken after 40 years. The pickup coil leads can be broken so intermittent from advance /retard movement cycles and may have metered good but be fatigued. That could cause no spark then spark and bang. Meter coil primary and then secondary as well.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283432 is a reply to message #283395] Wed, 29 July 2015 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
Senior Member
You are over-thinking this problem. I suggest that the problem is probably ignition related.

I have seen several times where a bad coil or the button on top of the rotor is worn causing this problem. It also usually destroys the ignition module. I carry in my coach a spare coil and cap already bolted together and ready for use. I have swapped it out on several different coaches and found their problem. In one case during one of our rallies the guy spent 3 days working on his fuel injection system and could not get it going. A simple swap of coil and cap proved his problem. We went to a local auto parts store, got him a new one, and sent him on his way.

Swap out the cap and coil. If that does not work put another new module in it.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283440 is a reply to message #283432] Wed, 29 July 2015 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
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Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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Senior Member
Ken Burton wrote on Wed, 29 July 2015 00:12
You are over-thinking this problem. I suggest that the problem is probably ignition related....


The only other component that might be keeping you from having spark after you do what Ken suggested is the pickup coil in the distributor. It's not difficult to change and is well covered in the manual. I just came home on a wrecker because of a bad pickup coil. It has two wires that go to the right hand side of the ignition module. These two wires move with vacuum advance and can break and cause the wires to only carry the signal intermittently. A good pickup coil will have about 800-900 ohms across the two wires.


Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: Engine cranks but won´t start [message #283622 is a reply to message #283440] Fri, 31 July 2015 16:09 Go to previous message
77PBFinland is currently offline  77PBFinland   Finland
Messages: 31
Registered: March 2014
Location: Finland
Karma: 1
Member
I was chancing new pickup coil and noticed that roll pin on distributor gear was quite short.
It was only 11/16" long and did not gone trough gear like in chevy HEI which i found on my own storage, it was also thinner than chevys.
Gear was still locked on axle (only on one side), but that was not causing original problem, I was just thinkin if I have to find longer pin.
I'll also change new cap, rotor, coil with ground strap and ignition module.
Going to made new battery cables and ground cables too.

Jake


Jarkko Lampinen `77 Palm Beach TZE167V100508 Finland Europe
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