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| Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 15:34  |
mickey szilagyi
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
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Hi all:
We're currently stuck on the side of the highway limping along to the nearest exit. Started out cold just fine and about 20 minutes on the highway going around 65-68 MPH, the engine started surging. It acts like the engine is starving for gas, as hills were really tough to get over. If I give it more gas, it has no power at all and starts misfiring, if I left off the gas a little it runs a little smoother but it's barely enough to get up an incline. We pulled over and let things cool off for about 30 minutes, starts right up and goes for about a mile then starts the same thing all over again. Eventually it gets so bad that we creep along slowly and it just doesn't have anything left and stalls completely after about 4-10 miles or so. We've gone about 60 miles total stopping and starting again about 5 times now, and are pretty much stuck at this point. We've looked it over and no evidence of anything leaking, not overheating or anything. It seems to me to be a fuel issue, but not sure. It also seems to get worse and worse as the engine heats up to full normal temp.
We recently put in a new fuel pump, fuel filter, fuel lines and tanks recoated, new float and needle in the carb and put on about 400 miles until this happened.
Any suggestions or ideas before we call the wrecker? We are on I-75 just south of Grayling, MI. It's about 76 degrees out and dry.
Thanks all!
Mickey
517-599-5970
Mickey
1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
[Updated on: Sat, 27 June 2015 15:36] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280859 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 15:45  |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Sounds like classic vapor lock to me. But, if you have electronic ignition,
it could also be advance counterweights frozen up, ignition module or
ignition coil. All can be repaired alongside the road. Cure for vapor lock
here and now is to wait until it is cooler, fill up with summer blend
gasoline, if you have an auxiliary electric fuel pump, turn it on and see
if it is helpful. It helps my 403 a great deal when it decides to vapor
lock.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jun 27, 2015 1:34 PM, "Mickey Szilagyi" wrote:
> Hi all:
> We're currently stuck on the side of the highway limping along to the
> nearest exit. Started out cold just fine and about 20 minutes on the
> highway
> going around 65-68 MPH, the engine started surging. It acts like the
> engine is starving for gas, as hills were really tough to get over. If I
> give
> it more gas, it has no power at all and starts misfiring, if I left off
> the gas a little it runs a little smoother but it's barely enough to get up
> an
> incline. We pulled over and let things cool off for about 30 minutes,
> starts right up and goes for about a mile then starts the same thing all
> over
> again. Eventually it gets so bad that we creep along slowly and it just
> doesn't have anything left and stalls completely after about 4-10 miles or
> so. We've gone about 60 miles total stopping and starting again about 5
> times now, and are pretty much stuck at this point. We've looked it over
> and
> no evidence of anything leaking, not overheating or anything. It seems to
> me to be a fuel issue, but not sure. It also seems to get worse and worse
> as the engine heats up to full normal temp.
>
> Any suggestions or ideas before we call the wrecker? We are on I-75 just
> south of Grayling, MI. It's about 76 degrees out and dry.
>
> Thanks all!
>
> Mickey
> 517-599-5970
> --
> Mickey
> 1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280860 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 15:54 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Lordy lordy. Pop the air cleaner - look down the carb and pump the gas. Lotsa gas, or not much? If there's lots, pop a plug wire, stick something metal in it, and hold it close to the engine - AWAY from the carb. Spin it on the starter - fat blue spark, or anemic redissh or none? These determine fuel problem or spark problem. Continue from there. And do the obvious, be sure the carb bolts are tight, none of the vacuum hoses fell off or split, etc. Report back.
Back in The Day we did our 'bare base' training at Grayling, I'm trying to think of something nice to say about the place. I can't.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280861 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 15:58 |
cbryan
Messages: 451
Registered: May 2012
Location: Ennis, Texas
Karma: 3
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Mickey,
I've just heard so many responses to the same situation that I will post what I recall:
1. Alternate fuel delivery system on a temporary basis, boat gas can direct to carb to see if it stops acting up.
2. maybe before that make sure you have spark. A load of bad modules cause similar problems.
3. Do you have spitting back through the carb? That would indicate more of a fuel problem than an ignition problem. But crossfiring ignition wires can cause the same thing. I think that's unlikely.
4. Can you bypass the fuel selector switch assembly? They draw air through cracks and can make you into a crackhead chasing that down.
5. Right after it happens take off the air cleaner and with the ignition off, pump the accelerator a couple of times to see if you have gas squirting in the primary bores up above the throttle plates, under the choke plates. If so, it might be indicating you have gas.
6. No chance of bad gas, is there? Didn't happen soon after a fillup, did it? Could be water in the petrol.
Others will have better ideas or organize the troubleshooting differently. Just wanted to respond quickly as it's no fun on the side of the road
Best,
Carey
Carey from Ennis, Texas
78 Royale, 500 Cadillac, Rance Baxter EFI.
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280863 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 16:10 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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IIRC, you have done extensive restoration work on that coach recently. Did you replace all the fuel hoses? Are the gas tanks clean? If there is any question, the first thing I would try is replacing the fuel filter(s) again. It doesn't take long for them to plug up if there is rust/dirt in the tanks.
Usually this is not an issue at highway speeds, but if your fan clutch is not working properly, it can cause the engine compartment to have a build up of heat. A good fan clutch helps to clear that hot air out of there. Otherwise, all the things that Jim H mentioned are possibilities.
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280870 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 18:59 |
77Royale
Messages: 461
Registered: June 2014
Location: Mid Michigan
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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I Texted your phone. I can get you some spares to try fuel filter cap rotor wirs plugs. But not until tomorrow as im not with my coach.
77 Royale, Rear Dry Bath. 403, 3.55 Final Drive, Lenzi goodies, Patterson carb and dizzy.
Mid Michigan
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280871 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 19:16 |
mickey szilagyi
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Thanks for all replies. We swapped out the ignition module, same problem. The issue seems to be fuel related to me but open to thoughts. We were able to limp along around 20-25 MPH on flat road, barely touching the accelerator and it went for a while. If you punch the gas, it stalls much faster. Seems like it's starved for gas. I recently replaced the fuel pump and filter, but have a spare pump on board and considering replacing the pump again. It was purchased as new old stock, date code was 2001 I believe. Will post of any luck or not. Thanks!
Mickey
1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280874 is a reply to message #280871] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 19:36 |
Carl S.
Messages: 4186
Registered: January 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ.
Karma: 13
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Senior Member |
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It's much easier to replace the fuel filter. Try that first before going to all the work of replacing the pump. If it turns out to be the filter, pick up spares because it will happen again (soon).
Carl Stouffer
'75 ex Palm Beach
Tucson, AZ.
Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280875 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 19:52 |
lqqkatjon
Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Just my opinion, 76 degrees outside, and this much problems, i would say it is not vapor lock. Maybe a flattened hose or cracked hose. But not fuel vaporization.
Let us know what you find out. I would think related to your float level since you said you changed the needle seat recently.
Jon Roche
75 palm beach
EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now.
St. Cloud, MN
http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280876 is a reply to message #280857] |
Sat, 27 June 2015 20:10 |
jhbridges
Messages: 8412
Registered: May 2011
Location: Braselton ga
Karma: -74
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Senior Member |
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Quick and dirty check on hoses and tanks - 5 gallon - or biggest they got - gas can and three feet of 3/8ths hose. Disconnect the hose at the pump and slip the new one on, dip it into the can theough a small opening in the front of the hatch. The smoking lamp is OUT. I drove home from Louisville this way, stopped ever 35 - 40 miles and filled the can.
--johnny
Foolish Carriage, 76 26' Eleganza(?) with beaucoup mods and add - ons.
Braselton, Ga.
I forgive them all, save those who hurt the dogs. They must answer to me in hell
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280894 is a reply to message #280882] |
Sun, 28 June 2015 00:12 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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No one asked but when did you last fill up and how much did it take. As Jim Hupy stated this sounds like winter blend fuel being used in the summer. This happens every year about this time when people are using last fall and winter fuel in warmer weather. The cure is to wait until it gets cooler (like midnight) and drive the thing until the fuel is used up. I had to do that two summers ago when I ran into that problem. I drove all night and by morning all the bad RVP fuel was gone. I never had the problem again on my 5000 mile trip.
If the fuel you are using was purchased before May 1 then it does not meet the RVP for summer fuel. Also if the fuel you purchased has ethanol in it then there is a 1.0 RVP wavier that allows it to be more volatile that real gasoline. Most of Michigan is in the RVP 9.0 territory. A few counties are in the 7.0 area. (A lower number is better) If the fuel you bought has craponol mixed in then your numbers go to 10.0 and 8.0 accordingly.
For more information look here:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/fuels/gasolinefuels/volatility/standards.htm
All of the other things people posted are definitely possibilities but I suspect it is vapor lock problems because of the time of the year.
An added electric boost pump as Jim Hupy and I have is a definite improvement for this kind of situation. I recommend the Carter P4070 but some people also use a cheaper one. Jim Bounds has them on his web site.
Replace the gas filters. I once moved a coach from The Peoples Republic of California to the midwest. Every day I had to replace one of the two filters. I had both the added filter in front of the mechanical pump and the carb filter. Both would clog.
Good Luck
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280897 is a reply to message #280894] |
Sun, 28 June 2015 06:58 |
mickey szilagyi
Messages: 273
Registered: January 2013
Karma: 0
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Senior Member |
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Ken Burton wrote on Sun, 28 June 2015 00:12No one asked but when did you last fill up and how much did it take. As Jim Hupy stated this sounds like winter blend fuel being used in the summer. This happens every year about this time when people are using last fall and winter fuel in warmer weather. The cure is to wait until it gets cooler (like midnight) and drive the thing until the fuel is used up. I had to do that two summers ago when I ran into that problem. I drove all night and by morning all the bad RVP fuel was gone. I never had the problem again on my 5000 mile trip.
Good Luck
Thanks Ken. That's interesting to know and we've also thought about that. Here's what we did. We started out on our trip with a near full tank and drove about 200 miles on last year's gas without any problems. We ran it down close to half tank, stopped along the way and added about 26 gallons of regular up in Gaylord, MI. We drove another 30 minutes to our destination without problems. We had to run it during our stay to the dump station but didn't take the coach on the road. When we finally jumped on the freeway to head home, we got about 20 miles and it started the surging. At first we were able to continue but after about 10 minutes it just kept getting worse and we had to stop. We limped along a little further then picked up some Sea Foam and put it in. We limped for another 20 miles or so, then topped off with about 12 gallons of premium grade fuel then made a good attempt to get as far as we could to maybe burn out the bad stuff. But, after about an hour of that, we gave up.
It will be interesting to know what this is. We spend the night in a safe place and are waiting for a flatbed to show up this morning. Got kids with us and crazy trying to troubleshoot it.
Thanks again so much for the quick replies. We'll see what happens.
Mickey
1977 Kingsley, 403, Lansing, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280938 is a reply to message #280859] |
Sun, 28 June 2015 18:55 |
lw8000
Messages: 201
Registered: July 2012
Location: S.E. Michigan
Karma: 1
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James Hupy wrote on Sat, 27 June 2015 15:45Sounds like classic vapor lock to me. But, if you have electronic ignition,
it could also be advance counterweights frozen up, ignition module or
ignition coil. All can be repaired alongside the road. Cure for vapor lock
here and now is to wait until it is cooler, fill up with summer blend
gasoline, if you have an auxiliary electric fuel pump, turn it on and see
if it is helpful. It helps my 403 a great deal when it decides to vapor
lock.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
Based on the feedback here and in other threads, we may look in to installing an inline electric pump. Currently we do not have one.
I've done some reading but just curious, are there any problems where if the OEM non-electric pump were to fail, with gas getting in the crankcase? I don't know if they are sealed so that cannot happen, or if that is even possible if there were a diaphragm failure in one.
Thanks again!
Chris S. -
77 Kingsley, 3.70 FD, mostly OEM -
S.E. Michigan
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280939 is a reply to message #280938] |
Sun, 28 June 2015 19:08 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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lw8000 wrote on Sun, 28 June 2015 16:55James Hupy wrote on Sat, 27 June 2015 15:45Sounds like classic vapor lock to me. But, if you have electronic ignition,
it could also be advance counterweights frozen up, ignition module or
ignition coil. All can be repaired alongside the road. Cure for vapor lock
here and now is to wait until it is cooler, fill up with summer blend
gasoline, if you have an auxiliary electric fuel pump, turn it on and see
if it is helpful. It helps my 403 a great deal when it decides to vapor
lock.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
Based on the feedback here and in other threads, we may look in to installing an inline electric pump. Currently we do not have one.
I've done some reading but just curious, are there any problems where if the OEM non-electric pump were to fail, with gas getting in the crankppocase? I don't know if they are sealed so that cannot happen, or if that is even possible if there were a diaphragm failure in one.
Thanks again!
Possible but not likely. Yes an electric pump is a very worth while investment . I no longer have a mechanical pump on mine. If you go electric I would suggest a separate pump for each tank and a spare .
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
[Updated on: Sun, 28 June 2015 19:15] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: [GMCnet] Stranded - engine surging / stalling issues [message #280940 is a reply to message #280938] |
Sun, 28 June 2015 19:03 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Senior Member |
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All things are possible. But are they probable or bound to happen? The
mechanical fuel pump diaphragm is designed for many years of service. Will
it fail in such a way that leaks fuel into the crankcase or will it leak
fuel out the weep hole and alert someone before fuel finds its way into the
crankcase. Dunno. Kinda interesting to talk about, though.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Jun 28, 2015 4:55 PM, "LW" wrote:
> James Hupy wrote on Sat, 27 June 2015 15:45
>> Sounds like classic vapor lock to me. But, if you have electronic
> ignition,
>> it could also be advance counterweights frozen up, ignition module or
>> ignition coil. All can be repaired alongside the road. Cure for vapor
> lock
>> here and now is to wait until it is cooler, fill up with summer blend
>> gasoline, if you have an auxiliary electric fuel pump, turn it on and see
>> if it is helpful. It helps my 403 a great deal when it decides to vapor
>> lock.
>> Jim Hupy
>> Salem, Or
>> 78 GMC ROYALE 403
>
>
> Based on the feedback here and in other threads, we may look in to
> installing an inline electric pump. Currently we do not have one.
>
> I've done some reading but just curious, are there any problems where if
> the OEM non-electric pump were to fail, with gas getting in the crankcase?
> I
> don't know if they are sealed so that cannot happen, or if that is even
> possible if there were a diaphragm failure in one.
>
> Thanks again!
> --
> Chris S. -
> 77 Kingsley as OEM as possible -
> S.E. Michigan
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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