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Steeringbox again [message #279778]

Sat, 13 June 2015 09:35

appie

Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark

Karma: 2

Senior Member

Trying to find a torque wrench small enough to adjust to steeringbox
The ones I can find are for bicycles
Just to be completely sure preload torque is ca 14 inch pound. That is less then 2 Nm. Right

Appie eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold 6 wheel discbrake Quadrabags Springfield stage 2 462 olds Manny tranny ( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016 Denmark

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Re: Steeringbox again [message #279785 is a reply to message #279778]

Sat, 13 June 2015 10:05

JohnL455

Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL

Karma: 12

Senior Member

Use the Wirth writeup. I thought it was fluid out, preload backed off you set the input shaft drag and then add the over center load to that. Might be like 7 plus 7 inch/ lbs. You have to read his paper but yes inch pounds not foot pounds!

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

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Re: Steeringbox again [message #279786 is a reply to message #279778]

Sat, 13 June 2015 10:16

Adrien G.

Messages: 474
Registered: May 2008
Location: Burns Flat, OK 73624

Karma: 1

Senior Member

appie wrote on Sat, 13 June 2015 09:35

Trying to find a torque wrench small enough to adjust to steeringbox
The ones I can find are for bicycles
Just to be completely sure preload torque is ca 14 inch pound. That is less then 2 Nm. Right

14 in. lbs is equal to 1.582 Nm. Here is a conversion chart http://www.thetoolhut.com/Torque-Conversion-Newton-Meters-Inch-Pounds.html

Right now, I don't have a clue on how to read that number on a newton torque wrench, unless it's calibrated in hundredths ( 0.001 ) Nm.

Someone else may chime in as to how crucial that number is, or how much deviation you may have.

Good Torquing.

Adrien & Jenny Genesoto 75 Glenbrook (26-3) Mods LS3.70 FD / Reaction Sys / 80mm Front&Intermidiate / Hydroboost / 16" Tires / Frame Rebuild / Interior Rebuild Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6

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[GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279793 is a reply to message #279786]

Sat, 13 June 2015 11:37

Arthur Mansfield

Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010

Karma: 0

Senior Member

When I out the generator back together I it ran fine without the covers. When put back together it would not surged and would not run smooth. I played with the carb not change. I then tighten the spring and it smoothed out but was running putting out 145 volts. It would not run smooth at lower tension. I moved the spring to next to the last hole instead of the 1st as it alway has been since new. The paint was still on the adjustment screw from when it was painted.

I realized why my generator quit when it gets hotter. The spring tension drops as the spring gets hot. I moved the spring connection to next the last hole on the control arm. I was then able to get were with both AC running the voltage was 124 and held steady. It puts out about 135 volts with out a load. I now understand why some had said they had to pull out the generator to run it with no problems. The spring up just above the exhaust manifold is not a good idea.

I have asked and asked what why the generator would run all day when not driving but would quit when driving. I believe generator would get hotter from the heat from the RV and the spring would loose it's tension. I ran my generator all day with no would start surging one day. The next day I hit the road and it quit after about a hour or so it quit. It did the same thing when I lowered the spring tension. The would surge worst as I lower the tension. It should do better in the outer hole as it needs less tension.

I am looking for a new spring as the old one has been heat cycled to many times.

I am sure there are others who know the generator better than me. I just like to tinker. Is what I am saying a real problem or is there another reason that when it gets hot it surges bad and quits? Mine has a different fuel pump and filter but other wise is stock.

I wish I had replaced the seal as once the generator ran for a longer time than I was willing to do without put the covers on it it started dripping a little oil. I will replace the seal at later time it is time to take to the road next week.

Art & Doris
Decatur AL 76 EL
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279795 is a reply to message #279793]

Sat, 13 June 2015 11:49

Arthur Mansfield

Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I checked the the voltage after an hour and it dropped about 5 volts as the spring gets hotter.

Art & Doris
On Jun 13, 2015, at 11:37 AM, 1104agm wrote:

> When I out the generator back together I it ran fine without the covers. When put back together it would not surged and would not run smooth. I played with the carb not change. I then tighten the spring and it smoothed out but was running putting out 145 volts. It would not run smooth at lower tension. I moved the spring to next to the last hole instead of the 1st as it alway has been since new. The paint was still on the adjustment screw from when it was painted.
>
> I realized why my generator quit when it gets hotter. The spring tension drops as the spring gets hot. I moved the spring connection to next the last hole on the control arm. I was then able to get were with both AC running the voltage was 124 and held steady. It puts out about 135 volts with out a load. I now understand why some had said they had to pull out the generator to run it with no problems. The spring up just above the exhaust manifold is not a good idea.
>
> I have asked and asked what why the generator would run all day when not driving but would quit when driving. I believe generator would get hotter from the heat from the RV and the spring would loose it's tension. I ran my generator all day with no would start surging one day. The next day I hit the road and it quit after about a hour or so it quit. It did the same thing when I lowered the spring tension. The would surge worst as I lower the tension. It should do better in the outer hole as it needs less tension.
>
> I am looking for a new spring as the old one has been heat cycled to many times.
>
> I am sure there are others who know the generator better than me. I just like to tinker. Is what I am saying a real problem or is there another reason that when it gets hot it surges bad and quits? Mine has a different fuel pump and filter but other wise is stock.
>
> I wish I had replaced the seal as once the generator ran for a longer time than I was willing to do without put the covers on it it started dripping a little oil. I will replace the seal at later time it is time to take to the road next week.
>
> Art & Doris
> Decatur AL 76 EL

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279797 is a reply to message #279793]

Sat, 13 June 2015 12:07

Jim Miller

Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008

Karma: 10

Senior Member

> On Jun 13, 2015, at 12:37 PM, 1104agm wrote:

> I am sure there are others who know the generator better than me. I just like to tinker. Is what I am saying a real problem or is there another reason that when it gets hot it surges bad and quits? Mine has a different fuel pump and filter but other wise is stock.

Here at the Miller compound we’ve worked on many an Onan during work rallies and at other times and we’ve never seen one that does what you are describing. You may have the first one with that particular problem.

--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279801 is a reply to message #279793]

Sat, 13 June 2015 13:37

Adrien G.

Messages: 474
Registered: May 2008
Location: Burns Flat, OK 73624

Karma: 1

Senior Member

This "STREERINGBOX" thread sure got shafted by a ONAN thread.

How can this occurre? I can see the body text being in the wrong title, but the title too.

Trying to make sense.

Adrien & Jenny Genesoto 75 Glenbrook (26-3) Mods LS3.70 FD / Reaction Sys / 80mm Front&Intermidiate / Hydroboost / 16" Tires / Frame Rebuild / Interior Rebuild Yuba City,Ca. Text 530-nine-3-three-3-nine-nine-6

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[GMCnet] Fwd: Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279802 is a reply to message #279795]

Sat, 13 June 2015 13:30

Arthur Mansfield

Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Turned the spring around and raised the attachment a ½ inch. Set the no load voltage to 126 volts and both AC load to 122 volts varying about +/- 2 volts. Lots of clearance between the manifold and the spring now. I guess the spring has been in backwards since I had the RV as it was over the manifold. It has always run ok when not driving bu not when driving. The extra heat from air under the RV must have been to much.

What is the disadvantage of using the spring hold farthest from the pivot point.

Art

Begin forwarded message:

> From: 1104agm
> Subject: Re: Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat
> Date: June 13, 2015 11:49:40 AM CDT
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>
> I checked the the voltage after an hour and it dropped about 5 volts as the spring gets hotter.
>
> Art & Doris
> On Jun 13, 2015, at 11:37 AM, 1104agm wrote:
>
>> When I out the generator back together I it ran fine without the covers. When put back together it would not surged and would not run smooth. I played with the carb not change. I then tighten the spring and it smoothed out but was running putting out 145 volts. It would not run smooth at lower tension. I moved the spring to next to the last hole instead of the 1st as it alway has been since new. The paint was still on the adjustment screw from when it was painted.
>>
>> I realized why my generator quit when it gets hotter. The spring tension drops as the spring gets hot. I moved the spring connection to next the last hole on the control arm. I was then able to get were with both AC running the voltage was 124 and held steady. It puts out about 135 volts with out a load. I now understand why some had said they had to pull out the generator to run it with no problems. The spring up just above the exhaust manifold is not a good idea.
>>
>> I have asked and asked what why the generator would run all day when not driving but would quit when driving. I believe generator would get hotter from the heat from the RV and the spring would loose it's tension. I ran my generator all day with no would start surging one day. The next day I hit the road and it quit after about a hour or so it quit. It did the same thing when I lowered the spring tension. The would surge worst as I lower the tension. It should do better in the outer hole as it needs less tension.
>>
>> I am looking for a new spring as the old one has been heat cycled to many times.
>>
>> I am sure there are others who know the generator better than me. I just like to tinker. Is what I am saying a real problem or is there another reason that when it gets hot it surges bad and quits? Mine has a different fuel pump and filter but other wise is stock.
>>
>> I wish I had replaced the seal as once the generator ran for a longer time than I was willing to do without put the covers on it it started dripping a little oil. I will replace the seal at later time it is time to take to the road next week.
>>
>> Art & Doris
>> Decatur AL 76 EL
>

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279803 is a reply to message #279801]

Sat, 13 June 2015 13:47

Arthur Mansfield

Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Sorry I do not know how it happened.

Art
On Jun 13, 2015, at 1:37 PM, Adrien Genesoto wrote:

> This "STREERINGBOX" thread sure got shafted by a ONAN thread.
>
> How can this occurre? I can see the body text being in the wrong title, but the title too.
>
> Trying to make sense.
>
>
>
> --
> ”When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided.”
>
>
>
> Adrien & Jenny
> 75 Glenbrook
> Yuba City,Ca.
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279808 is a reply to message #279803]

Sat, 13 June 2015 15:34

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Art,

I happened because you used "Reply" and not "New Topic" (or sent as new message to the e-mail system).
At least you changed the title, but there should have been not title to change.
This will really only mess up us forum readers as it will be transparent to the e-mail side.

Matt

Arthur Mansfield wrote on Sat, 13 June 2015 14:47

Sorry I do not know how it happened.

Art
On Jun 13, 2015, at 1:37 PM, Adrien Genesoto wrote:

> This "STREERINGBOX" thread sure got shafted by a ONAN thread.
>
> How can this occurre? I can see the body text being in the wrong title, but the title too.
>
> Trying to make sense.
>
>
>
> --
> "When we avoid the mistakes we might have made, we sometimes make the mistakes that we might have avoided."
>
>
>
> Adrien & Jenny
> 75 Glenbrook
> Yuba City,Ca.
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279815 is a reply to message #279802]

Sat, 13 June 2015 17:14

Jim Miller

Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008

Karma: 10

Senior Member

On Jun 13, 2015, at 2:30 PM, 1104agm wrote:
>
> Turned the spring around and raised the attachment a ½ inch. Set the no load voltage to 126 volts and both AC load to 122 volts varying about +/- 2 volts. Lots of clearance between the manifold and the spring now.

You should be setting your governor based on actual measured engine speed - either using a tachometer or by measuring the output frequency of the generated AC. If you set the governor based on voltage then you will almost undoubtedly be set too slow.

> What is the disadvantage of using the spring hold farthest from the pivot point.

The spring setting determines the governor’s responsiveness to load. If set too far one direction then the response to load changes will be sluggish - if set too far the other way the unit will be too sensitive and will oscillate around the desired speed. The manual describes this in detail.

--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279817 is a reply to message #279815]

Sat, 13 June 2015 17:46

Arthur Mansfield

Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010

Karma: 0

Senior Member

What should the RPM be set to? It runs better at voltage of about 135. Is that to high of voltage?

Art
On Jun 13, 2015, at 5:14 PM, Jim Miller wrote:

> On Jun 13, 2015, at 2:30 PM, 1104agm wrote:
>>
>> Turned the spring around and raised the attachment a ½ inch. Set the no load voltage to 126 volts and both AC load to 122 volts varying about +/- 2 volts. Lots of clearance between the manifold and the spring now.
>
> You should be setting your governor based on actual measured engine speed - either using a tachometer or by measuring the output frequency of the generated AC. If you set the governor based on voltage then you will almost undoubtedly be set too slow.
>
>> What is the disadvantage of using the spring hold farthest from the pivot point.
>
> The spring setting determines the governor’s responsiveness to load. If set too far one direction then the response to load changes will be sluggish - if set too far the other way the unit will be too sensitive and will oscillate around the desired speed. The manual describes this in detail.
>
> --Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
> 1977 Eleganza II
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279818 is a reply to message #279817]

Sat, 13 June 2015 18:18

Jim Miller

Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008

Karma: 10

Senior Member

> On Jun 13, 2015, at 6:46 PM, 1104agm wrote:
>
> What should the RPM be set to? It runs better at voltage of about 135. Is that to high of voltage?

1800 RPM is the machine’s design speed at which the generator will deliver 60Hz AC output. Once you are at this speed you can check the voltage and then make a determination whether or not it is acceptable.

As I mentioned you should not be setting the governor based on output voltage.

If your engine does not run correctly at 1800 then you need to determine the cause and remedy it.

--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279820 is a reply to message #279818]

Sat, 13 June 2015 19:07

Arthur Mansfield

Messages: 290
Registered: April 2010

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Senior Member

Thanks
On Jun 13, 2015, at 6:18 PM, Jim Miller wrote:

>> On Jun 13, 2015, at 6:46 PM, 1104agm wrote:
>>
>> What should the RPM be set to? It runs better at voltage of about 135. Is that to high of voltage?
>
> 1800 RPM is the machine’s design speed at which the generator will deliver 60Hz AC output. Once you are at this speed you can check the voltage and then make a determination whether or not it is acceptable.
>
> As I mentioned you should not be setting the governor based on output voltage.
>
> If your engine does not run correctly at 1800 then you need to determine the cause and remedy it.
>
> --Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
> 1977 Eleganza II
> 1977 Royale
> Hamilton, OH
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] Steeringbox again [message #279825 is a reply to message #279778]

Sat, 13 June 2015 19:42

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

Appie,

Below you will find a source for a 60 inch pound torque wrench:

http://www.amazon.com/PERFORMANCE-TORQUE-WRENCH-POUNDS-M195/dp/B00SNICDJC

The procedure to adjust the steering box can be found in MM X-7525 / Section 9 - Steering / Page 9-38 to 9-40 / Pitman Shaft "Over
Center" Sector Adjustment.

The spec for a used steering gear is 9 to 13 inch pounds (1.016863461 to 1.581787606 Newton meters) reference step 4. in the
procedure above.

Here's a link to the convertor I used: http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/inch-pounds-to-newton-meters-conversion.html

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: lenze middelberg

Trying to find a torque wrench small enough to adjust to steeringbox
The ones I can find are for bicycles
Just to be completely sure preload torque is ca 14 inch pound. That is less then 2 Nm. Right
--
Appie

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: Steeringbox again [message #279828 is a reply to message #279778]

Sat, 13 June 2015 20:00

JohnL455

Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL

Karma: 12

Senior Member

Snap-on should have an inch/lbs wrench. We used to use them to not overtighten 15" speakers in professional sound boxes. Found the output was higher when you didn't warp the cast speaker basket frame.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279832 is a reply to message #279817]

Sat, 13 June 2015 20:12

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

Arthur Mansfield wrote on Sat, 13 June 2015 17:46

What should the RPM be set to? It runs better at voltage of about 135. Is that to high of voltage?
Art

Yes. 135 volts is too high. The manual specs 126 volts and 63 Hz at 1890 RPMs for no load and 110 volts and 59Hz at 1770 RPMs full load.

FWIW, the OEM dual voltage fridge does not want to see more than 61Hz or less than 59Hz, so if yours has a swing-motor compressor, run it on DC only. I suspect that is why GM upfitted motorhomes that came with the dual voltage fridge were powered on the DC side only.

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279834 is a reply to message #279832]

Sat, 13 June 2015 20:27

Jim Miller

Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008

Karma: 10

Senior Member

On Jun 13, 2015, at 9:12 PM, A. wrote:
>
> I suspect that is why GM upfitted motorhomes that came with the dual voltage fridge were powered on the DC side only.

My GM-upfitted motorhome has a dual voltage fridge and it most certainly is powered by both 120VAC and 12VDC.

Nothing cares about a 1Hz difference in input frequency with the sole exception of a clock with a synchronous-motor timebase. It frankly doesn’t care either - but the humans don’t like it because it gains or loses time rapidly.

--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279848 is a reply to message #279834]

Sat, 13 June 2015 22:26

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

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Jim Miller wrote on Sat, 13 June 2015 20:27

...Nothing cares about a 1Hz difference in input frequency with the sole exception of a clock with a synchronous-motor timebase. It frankly doesn't care either - but the humans don't like it because it gains or loses time rapidly.

--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

Run that swing motor compressor on 63Hz and see how hot it gets. The motor does not rotate. It vibrates. It is designed to resonate at 60Hz. It REALLY, REALLY does not like frequencies too far from 60Hz.

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Re: [GMCnet] Onan Control Sprong Changes WIth Time and Heat [message #279852 is a reply to message #279834]

Sat, 13 June 2015 22:56

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

Jim Miller wrote on Sat, 13 June 2015 20:27

My GM-upfitted motorhome has a dual voltage fridge and it most certainly is powered by both 120VAC and 12VDC. ...

Yeah. I should have said 1973 and 1974 only had the DC side connected (per the MM, "The Norcold refrigerator operates on the 12-volt DC system of the vehicle."). The fridge is capable of running on 120VAC, and automatic sensing and switching to that power source, but GM didn't utilize it in 1973.

The OEM fridge I removed from a 1973 Sequoia was missing the AC power cord/connector and I had to rig one up to run it on AC power.

I have a larger OEM dual-voltage fridge out of a later model and the AC cord was included. So I guess it could have been plugged into an outlet, either by GM or an owner.

More info on swing motor compressors is here: http://www.sawafuji.co.jp/english/tech/shindou.html

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