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Roof top Air [message #275711]

Sun, 12 April 2015 19:59

stick miller

Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia

Karma: 0

Senior Member

I have an OEM rooftop air conditioner on my '76 Eleganza that is DOA. It simply quit one day while plugged in and makes no effort to do anything.Rear unit works fine.

I had a guy who knows a guy who works for a local air conditioning company come by and have a look at it and he said the motor was "shot." He could bypass things on the roof and make the motor come on but as soon as it got hot it quit. My question is, is it worth the time, effort and money to have the motor repaired or replaced or should I just bite the bullet and put on a new A/C? I have 2 rooftop airconditioners so I'm not desperate for at least a month or so, but this summer could be dicey. I need to have that unit fixed.

So, repair, replace with used (I think I have a "deal" in the works) or replace with new? Also, any feedback on the 13500BTU units that are heatpumps - not just heat strips. Seems a lot safer than using the furnace although we certainly have used the propane furnace plenty of times.

Thanks

Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275714 is a reply to message #275711]

Sun, 12 April 2015 20:18

tphipps

Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Replace it. The reputation of repaired units is sketchy at best. A running used one could be a good deal.
Tom, MS II

2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG

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Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air [message #275718 is a reply to message #275711]

Sun, 12 April 2015 20:34

Ken Henderson

Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Stick,

Remember that RV heat pumps are generally limited to heating at 40*F and
above. Better, IMHO, to just get a regular A/C with a heat strip -- or use
portable heaters.

As for repairing the 40 YO A/C; I wouldn't bother.

Ken H.

On Sun, Apr 12, 2015 at 8:59 PM, Stick Miller wrote:

> I have an OEM rooftop air conditioner on my '76 Eleganza that is DOA. It
> simply quit one day while plugged in and makes no effort to do anything.Rear
> unit works fine.
>
> I had a guy who knows a guy who works for a local air conditioning company
> come by and have a look at it and he said the motor was "shot." He could
> bypass things on the roof and make the motor come on but as soon as it got
> hot it quit. My question is, is it worth the time, effort and money to have
> the motor repaired or replaced or should I just bite the bullet and put on
> a new A/C? I have 2 rooftop airconditioners so I'm not desperate for at
> least a month or so, but this summer could be dicey. I need to have that
> unit fixed.
>
> So, repair, replace with used (I think I have a "deal" in the works) or
> replace with new? Also, any feedback on the 13500BTU units that are
> heatpumps
> - not just heat strips. Seems a lot safer than using the furnace although
> we certainly have used the propane furnace plenty of times.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Stick Miller
> '78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
> '76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie"
> Americus, Georgia
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach

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Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air [message #275719 is a reply to message #275714]

Sun, 12 April 2015 20:35

ljdavick

Messages: 3548
Registered: March 2007
Location: Fremont, CA

Karma: -3

Senior Member

Stick,

Although I haven’t had a chance to try it on a hot day I believe my Atwood AC-150 is a chilling machine. I bought this from Jim K - he’s about a mile away - and the installation was simple. The only thing that was sketchy for this shade-tree mechanic was to cut the bolts to length. I chose to buy shorter bolts.

Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, CA

> On Apr 12, 2015, at 6:18 PM, Thomas Phipps wrote:
>
> Replace it. The reputation of repaired units is sketchy at best. A running used one could be a good deal.
> Tom, MS II
> --
> 1975 GMC Avion
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275727 is a reply to message #275711]

Sun, 12 April 2015 22:37

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

stick miller wrote on Sun, 12 April 2015 18:59

I have an OEM rooftop air conditioner on my '76 Eleganza that is DOA. It simply quit one day while plugged in and makes no effort to do anything.Rear unit works fine.

I had a guy who knows a guy who works for a local air conditioning company come by and have a look at it and he said the motor was "shot." He could bypass things on the roof and make the motor come on but as soon as it got hot it quit. My question is, is it worth the time, effort and money to have the motor repaired or replaced or should I just bite the bullet and put on a new A/C? I have 2 rooftop airconditioners so I'm not desperate for at least a month or so, but this summer could be dicey. I need to have that unit fixed.

So, repair, replace with used (I think I have a "deal" in the works) or replace with new? Also, any feedback on the 13500BTU units that are heatpumps - not just heat strips. Seems a lot safer than using the furnace although we certainly have used the propane furnace plenty of times.

Thanks

Throw it off the roof and move on. I have read a lot of negative reviews of the heat pump units. These things are cheap enough that I wouldn't even fool with a used one unless it was free (right Chris)?

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275746 is a reply to message #275727]

Mon, 13 April 2015 07:51

stick miller

Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Well, I guess it is free used or new. I've heard that the heat strips are not much good. I'm not sure why I'm worried about the heat. Heat is not a big issue in the deep south.

Now, I have a 13,500 in the rear of the coach and I suppose I ought to put the same up front. Mine are not wired so both will run on plug-in but both will start and run with the Onan. Any reason to put a larger unit up front? (I had a separate plug for the rear air on the Royale)

Now I need some recommendations. Looks like they run from $500 to north of $800. Lo profile won't make much sense since I have a large pod and a high profile on the rear. So, what's the point?

Any brand in particular to stay away from? Thanks for the help and advice.

Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275748 is a reply to message #275711]

Mon, 13 April 2015 08:12

lqqkatjon

Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN

Karma: 5

Senior Member

Stick,

Wait a week, and I will review my atwood 15,500 BTU A/C that is sitting on the floor in my garage. I am at work this morning, and be trying to figure out what day this week I will bring my coach in to install it.

I have two working original units. But they are loud and suck alot of power. I went with the bigger unit, because my
Gmc just plain gets hot in the sun, so I wanted more btu. The unit comes with the heat pump feature, so that is a bonus. I hope bob is wrong that because of that it might be prone to failure, but in all my research on the atwoods in the past year, I have not found any poor reviews due to failure.

The unit I bought is the same one as Larry. They offer a 13.5k unit as well with no heat pump. You save a little bit of money.

Jon Roche 75 palm beach EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now. St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275751 is a reply to message #275748]

Mon, 13 April 2015 08:28

Jim Galbavy

Messages: 1443
Registered: August 2007

Karma: 7

Senior Member

I have to agree with Jon. The Atwood 15,500 btu w/ heat pump gives
you more options. It is not a die hard heater, but you already know that
that isn't what you need. A couple more BTUs of A/C is a bonus. In the
South, 15,500 BTUs makes more sense than 13,500 if you have the choice.
The new 15,500s draw less amps at startup than the old 13,500s do too.
To me it is a no brainer. As for a used unit, you are just buying someone
else's problem.

jim galbavy
'73 x-CL ANNIE
Lake Mary, FL

[Updated on: Mon, 13 April 2015 08:29]

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275752 is a reply to message #275751]

Mon, 13 April 2015 08:39

stick miller

Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Point taken Jim, except that if I want to run both airs on the Onan, I'm not sure it will do it. I know it will run 2 old 13500s but will it run and old 13500 AND a new 15000?

Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA

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Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air [message #275754 is a reply to message #275746]

Mon, 13 April 2015 08:32

powwerjon

Messages: 849
Registered: March 2013

Karma: -2

Senior Member

Stick,
I have had the heat strip in our AC’s in the last and this coach. I find that they work quite well and put out alot of heat. I have them in both the front and rear units. Are the units going to put out blazing heat from the start, NO, but the coach heats up pretty quickly. Just my personal experience, yours may vary. We had a discussion on heat strips about a year ago on how many watts they were, but I could find it.

J.R. Wright
30' Buskirk Stretch
Michigan
On Location in Page AZ

> On Apr 13, 2015, at 5:51 AM, Stick Miller wrote:
>
> Well, I guess it is free used or new. I've heard that the heat strips are not much good. I'm not sure why I'm worried about the heat. Heat is not a
> big issue in the deep south.
>
> Now, I have a 13,500 in the rear of the coach and I suppose I ought to put the same up front. Mine are not wired so both will run on plug-in but both
> will start and run with the Onan. Any reason to put a larger unit up front? (I had a separate plug for the rear air on the Royale)
>
> Now I need some recommendations. Looks like they run from $500 to north of $800. Lo profile won't make much sense since I have a large pod and a high
> profile on the rear. So, what's the point?
>
> Any brand in particular to stay away from? Thanks for the help and advice.
>
> --
> Stick Miller
> '78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
> '76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie"
> Americus, Georgia
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275755 is a reply to message #275711]

Mon, 13 April 2015 09:00

lqqkatjon

Messages: 2324
Registered: October 2010
Location: St. Cloud, MN

Karma: 5

Senior Member

I can not speak for the other manufacturers. I just know the research i did on the Atwood units.

The 15.5k atwood draws less power then the original A/C units. I would think you could run two of the 15.5k units on a onan.

the 15.5 atwood is specked at 13 amps. the 13.5k is spec. at 12.5 amps

Not much difference. I would almost be certain that you could run 2 of the Atwood 15.5 off the 6000 watt onan.
if you have a 4000 watt onan, I would think the same. I am thinking each of the atwood 15.5k units run at 1430 watts??

i am going to do some tests to see how accurate the sales information is, compared to real world, when I get mine installed. I will check it with the kilowatt meter, and I have a couple different generators to try. I have been told by another owner, that he successfully powers the atwood 15.5k unit with a 2000 watt honda generator.

Jon Roche 75 palm beach EBL EFI, manny headers, Micro Level, rebuilt most of coach now. St. Cloud, MN http://lqqkatjon.blogspot.com/

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Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air [message #275756 is a reply to message #275746]

Mon, 13 April 2015 08:55

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

Stick,

Another 13,500 BTU Unit will be fine that's what I have on Double Trouble. The only time I use the rear unit is when we first stop
for the evening to cool down quickly or after I take a shower and dry off in the bedroom.

I stumbled on to this unit that has a heat pump for $386.99!!!!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gree-RVA-135RHP-OD-RV-Air-Conditioner-With-Heat-Pump-13500-BTU-Top-Unit-/291418515739

I've been looking at their 240vac / 50hz model for The Blue Streak:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-NCE-Gree-Roof-Airconditioner-for-Caravan-Bus-Motorhome-Truck-etc-/251854038922?pt=LH_DefaultDom
ain_15&hash=item3aa3aba78a#ht_2714wt_684

Take a look at all the photos, it appears to be a very well built unit!

Gree is a big Chinese company due some research and see what you can learn about this unit.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Stick Miller
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 10:51 PM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air

Well, I guess it is free used or new. I've heard that the heat strips are not much good. I'm not sure why I'm worried about the
heat. Heat is not a big issue in the deep south.

Now, I have a 13,500 in the rear of the coach and I suppose I ought to put the same up front. Mine are not wired so both will run on
plug-in but both will start and run with the Onan. Any reason to put a larger unit up front? (I had a separate plug for the rear air
on the Royale)

Now I need some recommendations. Looks like they run from $500 to north of $800. Lo profile won't make much sense since I have a
large pod and a high profile on the rear. So, what's the point?

Any brand in particular to stay away from? Thanks for the help and advice.

--
Stick Miller

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air [message #275763 is a reply to message #275754]

Mon, 13 April 2015 09:30

emerystora

Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 13

Senior Member

They are 1500 watts. The same as the typical plug in floor electrical heater. They don't seem as hot because of all the air flowing but they will do a good job to take the chill off.

Emery Stora

> On Apr 13, 2015, at 7:32 AM, John Wright wrote:
>
> Stick,
> I have had the heat strip in our AC’s in the last and this coach. I find that they work quite well and put out alot of heat. I have them in both the front and rear units. Are the units going to put out blazing heat from the start, NO, but the coach heats up pretty quickly. Just my personal experience, yours may vary. We had a discussion on heat strips about a year ago on how many watts they were, but I could find it.
>
> J.R. Wright
> 30' Buskirk Stretch
> Michigan
> On Location in Page AZ
>
>> On Apr 13, 2015, at 5:51 AM, Stick Miller wrote:
>>
>> Well, I guess it is free used or new. I've heard that the heat strips are not much good. I'm not sure why I'm worried about the heat. Heat is not a
>> big issue in the deep south.
>>
>> Now, I have a 13,500 in the rear of the coach and I suppose I ought to put the same up front. Mine are not wired so both will run on plug-in but both
>> will start and run with the Onan. Any reason to put a larger unit up front? (I had a separate plug for the rear air on the Royale)
>>
>> Now I need some recommendations. Looks like they run from $500 to north of $800. Lo profile won't make much sense since I have a large pod and a high
>> profile on the rear. So, what's the point?
>>
>> Any brand in particular to stay away from? Thanks for the help and advice.
>>
>> --
>> Stick Miller
>> '78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
>> '76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie"
>> Americus, Georgia
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air [message #275764 is a reply to message #275756]

Mon, 13 April 2015 09:39

Daniel DeLuca

Messages: 120
Registered: June 2014

Karma: 0

Senior Member

My original A/C’s mostly work, but if anyone takes the plunge on these $400 units please let us know. Hell, if I get the money I might try later in the year.

Dan
> On Apr 13, 2015, at 9:55 AM, Robert Mueller wrote:
>
> Stick,
>
> Another 13,500 BTU Unit will be fine that's what I have on Double Trouble. The only time I use the rear unit is when we first stop
> for the evening to cool down quickly or after I take a shower and dry off in the bedroom.
>
> I stumbled on to this unit that has a heat pump for $386.99!!!!!
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Gree-RVA-135RHP-OD-RV-Air-Conditioner-With-Heat-Pump-13500-BTU-Top-Unit-/291418515739
>
> I've been looking at their 240vac / 50hz model for The Blue Streak:
>
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/BRAND-NEW-NCE-Gree-Roof-Airconditioner-for-Caravan-Bus-Motorhome-Truck-etc-/251854038922?pt=LH_DefaultDom
> ain_15&hash=item3aa3aba78a#ht_2714wt_684
>
> Take a look at all the photos, it appears to be a very well built unit!
>
> Gree is a big Chinese company due some research and see what you can learn about this unit.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Stick Miller
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 10:51 PM
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air
>
> Well, I guess it is free used or new. I've heard that the heat strips are not much good. I'm not sure why I'm worried about the
> heat. Heat is not a big issue in the deep south.
>
> Now, I have a 13,500 in the rear of the coach and I suppose I ought to put the same up front. Mine are not wired so both will run on
> plug-in but both will start and run with the Onan. Any reason to put a larger unit up front? (I had a separate plug for the rear air
> on the Royale)
>
> Now I need some recommendations. Looks like they run from $500 to north of $800. Lo profile won't make much sense since I have a
> large pod and a high profile on the rear. So, what's the point?
>
> Any brand in particular to stay away from? Thanks for the help and advice.
>
> --
> Stick Miller
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275767 is a reply to message #275711]

Mon, 13 April 2015 09:58

Chr$

Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

I have a Carrier Heat Pump. When it cannot heat, the furnace kicks on. You just have to wire the furnace to the AC unit's thermostat or (in my case) wireless remote control box.
This gives me the ability to use shore power to heat the coach when plugged in.

It is also quieter than the blast furnace. Rolling Eyes

Rolling Eyes

-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ

77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275770 is a reply to message #275751]

Mon, 13 April 2015 10:20

stick miller

Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia

Karma: 0

Senior Member

No Message Body

Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA

[Updated on: Mon, 13 April 2015 10:26]

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Re: [GMCnet] Roof top Air [message #275774 is a reply to message #275770]

Mon, 13 April 2015 10:48

emerystora

Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 13

Senior Member

Yes, no problem. In fact my 15,000 Briskaire pulls less amps then my original 13,500 did.

Emery Stora

> On Apr 13, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Stick Miller wrote:
>
> Point taken Jim, except that if I want to run both airs on the Onan, I'm not sure it will do it. I know it will run 2 old 13500s but will it run and
> old 13500 AND a new 15000?
> --
> Stick Miller
> '78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
> '76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie"
> Americus, Georgia
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: Roof top Air [message #275775 is a reply to message #275711]

Mon, 13 April 2015 11:08

Matt Colie

Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan

Karma: 7

Senior Member

Stick,

I am going to start with the facts and then go on to choices....

Fact, No heat pump is worth a damn below 40°F OAT. The evaporator will freeze up if there is any humidity and an even if there isn't, there isn't enough heat in the cold air to make it worth while to try to pump it inside. (See Ashre guide)

Fact, the heat strips are limited to 1500watt by the wire size that equates to about 5100 BTU. That is a lot less than your heater, but if you are on shore power, it is still a good idea. (BTDT)

Fact, a new 15KBTU A/C will use less power and be easier to start than a ~40yo roof top unit. My new Carrier 15K uses less power and starts with less surge than did our old Coleman Mark V (c.1995) 13.5K unit. That unit was swapped out only for the low profile because it was cheaper the raising the barn door. I don't regret it.(BTDT)

The choice of a heat pump could make sense in part because of you current location. Including the option does usually coat some COP (Coefficient of Performance - the efficiency of the unit), but it is seldom a killer.

We find that the heat strip in our new A/C does get the chill off the coach pretty fast, but it can't actually heat the coach below about 35°F, then we have to go to with the gas heat. (BTDT)

The units are not very heavy in actual fact. Going down, a line and a friend can slide it down a ladder. The parts have salvage value - particularly the top case. Going up can easily be done with a tree branch and a set of light tackle. Get a new 14" gasket if it did not come with the new unit. (BTDT)

Matt

Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275777 is a reply to message #275746]

Mon, 13 April 2015 11:17

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

stick miller wrote on Mon, 13 April 2015 06:51

Well, I guess it is free used or new. I've heard that the heat strips are not much good. I'm not sure why I'm worried about the heat. Heat is not a big issue in the deep south.

Now, I have a 13,500 in the rear of the coach and I suppose I ought to put the same up front. Mine are not wired so both will run on plug-in but both will start and run with the Onan. Any reason to put a larger unit up front? (I had a separate plug for the rear air on the Royale)

Now I need some recommendations. Looks like they run from $500 to north of $800. Lo profile won't make much sense since I have a large pod and a high profile on the rear. So, what's the point?

Any brand in particular to stay away from? Thanks for the help and advice.

I have heat strips in each of my Dometics and find that they really are effective. Even in AZ it can get chilly overnight esp in the mountains.

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: Roof top Air [message #275779 is a reply to message #275748]

Mon, 13 April 2015 11:24

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

lqqkatjon wrote on Mon, 13 April 2015 07:12

Stick,

Wait a week, and I will review my atwood 15,500 BTU A/C that is sitting on the floor in my garage. I am at work this morning, and be trying to figure out what day this week I will bring my coach in to install it.

I have two working original units. But they are loud and suck alot of power. I went with the bigger unit, because my
Gmc just plain gets hot in the sun, so I wanted more btu. The unit comes with the heat pump feature, so that is a bonus. I hope bob is wrong that because of that it might be prone to failure, but in all my research on the atwoods in the past year, I have not found any poor reviews due to failure.

The unit I bought is the same one as Larry. They offer a 13.5k unit as well with no heat pump. You save a little bit of money.

The negative comments I heard about heat pumps is not about durability but more about so-so performance and noise.

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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