Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Cooling/pump/radiator (Added a house hot water heater loop and new belts, now no circ)
| Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275331] |
Tue, 07 April 2015 20:19  |
Tilerpep
Messages: 404
Registered: June 2013
Location: Raleigh, NC
Karma: 7
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Senior Member |
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Thought I had cooling taken care of. Things were working fine. Secured a NOS fan clutch, needed a new alternator belt and to tighten all of them, had new upper and lower radiator hoses in hand, and installed a new house water heater and hoses to the rear. So tackled all four projects by draining coolant and doing all the above. Put all together, refilled coolant. I knew I could/would have bubbles with the water heater loop extra, so ran a few minutes, and shut it off. Repeated several times. Acts like either the radiator is clogged or water pump not working at all. Top radiator hose gets tight, but not hot, radiator no heat, new house water heater loop hoses no heat. IR reader says even intake manifold uneven heat, which if I understand the pump right, that should get circulation even without loop to radiator (like if the thermostat or radiator is bad but pump working).
Thermostat is a few months old. Radiator cap is two years old
Questions:
Does top hose getting tight mean pump working and radiator clogged?
Do I have to drain it again and run garden hose to radiator top hose to test it?
Can adding the new water heater loop create air pockets that impair functionality this bad?
If dash heater control set to hot, and a loop to house water heater, shouldn't those get circulation even if thermostat closed?
Could I have put the house water heater connections in the wrong place? (It has never been functional while I have owned. Rear of engine block little vertical "T" that feeds forward and heater, and other connects to T at front of engine off water pump and other side goes to dash heat)
Is there a way to test water pump?
TIA
1975 Glenbrook, 1978 Royale rear bath
Raleigh, NC
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| Re: Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275350 is a reply to message #275331] |
Tue, 07 April 2015 22:50  |
Bob de Kruyff
Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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Tilerpep wrote on Tue, 07 April 2015 19:19Thought I had cooling taken care of. Things were working fine. Secured a NOS fan clutch, needed a new alternator belt and to tighten all of them, had new upper and lower radiator hoses in hand, and installed a new house water heater and hoses to the rear. So tackled all four projects by draining coolant and doing all the above. Put all together, refilled coolant. I knew I could/would have bubbles with the water heater loop extra, so ran a few minutes, and shut it off. Repeated several times. Acts like either the radiator is clogged or water pump not working at all. Top radiator hose gets tight, but not hot, radiator no heat, new house water heater loop hoses no heat. IR reader says even intake manifold uneven heat, which if I understand the pump right, that should get circulation even without loop to radiator (like if the thermostat or radiator is bad but pump working).
Thermostat is a few months old. Radiator cap is two years old
Questions:
Does top hose getting tight mean pump working and radiator clogged?
Do I have to drain it again and run garden hose to radiator top hose to test it?
Can adding the new water heater loop create air pockets that impair functionality this bad?
If dash heater control set to hot, and a loop to house water heater, shouldn't those get circulation even if thermostat closed?
Could I have put the house water heater connections in the wrong place? (It has never been functional while I have owned. Rear of engine block little vertical "T" that feeds forward and heater, and other connects to T at front of engine off water pump and other side goes to dash heat)
Is there a way to test water pump?
TIA
The upper radiator hose is the outlet of the water pump . The water pump doesn't create enough pressure to make the hose "tight" if you mean that it feels pressurized. There should be no restriction to keep fluid from flowing through the system back into the engine. Normally pressure is limited to 9# and that is created by rising temperature in the system. If the thermostat is working and there are no air locks, the upper hose should be very hot unless there is no flow and there are hot spots in the engine that is causing a pressure rise.. The heater loop should not affect the basic flow of water. It sounds like your radiator is clogged but I have never seen one that is so clogged that no water can flow through it. I guess never say never,
Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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| Re: Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275390 is a reply to message #275350] |
Wed, 08 April 2015 10:20 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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You need to purge that heater loop so there is no air returning to the pump. Like Bob said, that pump won't make pressure you could feel in the hose, and it won't work at all if there is air in the pump. It is only a flow pump, and a fairly small quantity of air ingestion will stop it from pushing fluid. Higher RPMs will not make it pump when it is airbound, either.
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275391 is a reply to message #275390] |
Wed, 08 April 2015 10:25 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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While we are on filling instructions, always have the heater flow valve on
maximum heat. Fill the radiator to the bottom of the filler neck and wait.
Be patient, it takes a bit of time to get past the thermostat bypass.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Apr 8, 2015 8:20 AM, "Terry" wrote:
> You need to purge that heater loop so there is no air returning to the
> pump. Like Bob said, that pump won't make pressure you could feel in the
> hose,
> and it won't work at all if there is air in the pump. It is only a flow
> pump, and a fairly small quantity of air ingestion will stop it from pushing
> fluid. Higher RPMs will not make it pump when it is airbound, either.
> --
> Terry Kelpien
> ASE Master Technician
> 73 Glacier 260
> Smithfield, Va.
> _______________________________________________
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275411 is a reply to message #275390] |
Wed, 08 April 2015 12:31 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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When I got tired of the hassle filling the GMC's cooling system, I started
doing this:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4278-simple-2fno-spill-2fno-air-cooling-system-filler.html
Ken H.
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Terry wrote:
> You need to purge that heater loop so there is no air returning to the
> pump. Like Bob said, that pump won't make pressure you could feel in the
> hose,
> and it won't work at all if there is air in the pump. It is only a flow
> pump, and a fairly small quantity of air ingestion will stop it from pushing
> fluid. Higher RPMs will not make it pump when it is airbound, either.
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275417 is a reply to message #275411] |
Wed, 08 April 2015 12:59 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Ken, I am sure that the factory fills the cooling systems from a low point
on the system, such as a block drain, and uses higher pressure than the
9psi cap limits us to. That being said, I like your method. It should allow
filling to take place without spilling sticky antifreeze all over. When I
did the install of the new S and J engine in Jerry Work's Clasco coach, I
shoved one of the bypass hoses up behind the AC compressor. When I hooked
up the hoses, I had changed intake manifolds and the locations of the hoses
were slightly different. Long story short, one end of the aformentioned
hose was not connected to anything. I filled the cooling system with 50/50
mix and no leaks. When I started the engine for the first time, whoa boy,
anti freeze solution all over his pretty new paint and exhaust manifolds.
What a mess it made. Twice. Jerry was there looking over my shoulder so I
couldn't even invent a deniable scenario ( lie like hell ) about what a
bonehead stunt I pulled. Man do I hate cleaning up antifreeze spills. They
are right next to black tank spills in my book. When you are through
filling the cooling system, you just have the short section of heater hose
with the quick disconnect fittings left in one of the heater hoses, correct?
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 10:31 AM, Ken Henderson
wrote:
> When I got tired of the hassle filling the GMC's cooling system, I started
> doing this:
>
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g4278-simple-2fno-spill-2fno-air-cooling-system-filler.html
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Terry wrote:
>
>> You need to purge that heater loop so there is no air returning to the
>> pump. Like Bob said, that pump won't make pressure you could feel in the
>> hose,
>> and it won't work at all if there is air in the pump. It is only a flow
>> pump, and a fairly small quantity of air ingestion will stop it from
> pushing
>> fluid. Higher RPMs will not make it pump when it is airbound, either.
>> --
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275448 is a reply to message #275417] |
Wed, 08 April 2015 18:52 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Jim,
I agree with you that antifreeze is terrible to spill -- it just won't go
away! Keeps on making you wonder whether you've really fixed the leaks.
That was a large part of the reason for my devising the pump-to-fill
method. There's probably a way to do the re-connection of the disconnect
without spilling even that little bit of coolant, but I haven't yet figured
it out -- and it would certainly be more expensive than the simple water
hose coupling I use.
The really significant benefit, of course, is that when full, the system
is completely filled with coolant -- no air, even in the heater core. Only
a little gets into the system during the reconnection.
Ken
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 1:59 PM, James Hupy wrote:
> Ken, I am sure that the factory fills the cooling systems from a low point
> on the system, such as a block drain, and uses higher pressure than the
> 9psi cap limits us to. That being said, I like your method. It should allow
> filling to take place without spilling sticky antifreeze all over. When I
>
...
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275458 is a reply to message #275390] |
Wed, 08 April 2015 19:31 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Terry,
Thanks for this note; I drained the coolant out of Double Trouble before I left Houston but did not get around to refilling the
system. Do you think leaving it "dry" until August will create any problems?
I was amazed at how much I got out of the engine block when I removed the left and right side plugs.
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Terry
You need to purge that heater loop so there is no air returning to the pump. Like Bob said, that pump won't make pressure you could
feel in the hose, and it won't work at all if there is air in the pump. It is only a flow pump, and a fairly small quantity of air
ingestion will stop it from pushing fluid. Higher RPMs will not make it pump when it is airbound, either.
--
Terry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275466 is a reply to message #275331] |
Wed, 08 April 2015 20:59 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Senior Member |
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You are not going to get all of the air out of the system at an idle if you have one of those small impeller water pumps. Fill the system and run at an idle unto the thermostat opens. You can tell this by feeling the upper radiator hose waiting for it to get warm. Shut of the engine and fill the radiator again. Now run the coach down the road at cruise speeds until it gets up to temperature again. Running it at these speeds will expel the air from the higher mounted heater and the air will end up in the radiator and overflow container. After a cool down cycle or two all of the air will be gone. The problem you are fighting is the higher mounted cabin heater and the heating loop for the cabin hot water heater are in parallel and with air in the cabin heater loop all of the coolant the flow goes to the rear hot water heater when the engine is idling. If you have a 4" or larger water pump or you run the coach down the road, you will have increased flow available to remove that air.
I had my cooling system apart replacing the lower hose just before we left for the GMCMI Patterson rally. I refilled the system as I stated above. I also filled the overflow bottle to the top. We drove the coach south and I checked the radiator and overflow container after the first partial cooling cycle when we stopped for lunch about 3 hours later. The radiator was full, and the overflow bottle was down to about the midway point. I rechecked the radiator and overflow container again after we were parked overnight. That the morning it was right to the full cold line with the radiator full. After every gas stop along the trip the overflow container was at the appropriate level for the entire 2500 mile trip.
You just need to get the air out of the system. Drive it to get rid of the air
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Cooling/pump/radiator [message #275475 is a reply to message #275458] |
Thu, 09 April 2015 00:33 |
Bullitthead
Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013
Karma: 5
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I don't think leaving the system empty is going to give you any problem as long as it is closed and not allowed to "air out". That said, there are corrosion inhibitors in antifreeze, and although we always see iron rust after it gets wet, it is actually oxygen reacting with the iron that is causing that rust. It is probably better to keep the metals submerged. I usually keep my operable engines full of coolant while they are not being used, only the ones on stands in the shop are "dry", but I bet I could turn any of them over (upside down)and some coolant would pour out! Almost impossible to get all the coolant out of automotive engines unless you disassemble them...
Terry Kelpien
ASE Master Technician
73 Glacier 260
Smithfield, Va.
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