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Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? (My carb is flooding out and running rich....)
Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274827] Thu, 02 April 2015 17:28 Go to next message
budworks521 is currently offline  budworks521   United States
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Registered: October 2013
Location: Grand Rapids MI 1974 Pain...
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I have tried numerous things to get the 455 running right. My carb has been totally rebuilt and I can get proper vaccuum when idling for 15 minutes or so then it just bogs out and the vac steadily decreases. I have tried timing, idle screws, vapor cannister, etc and still can't figure out my issue. I don't believe the float is damaged or the accelator pump is damaged. I experienced this flooding before the carb was rebuilt as well. Does anyone have any ideas what could increase the fuel pressure to the carb??? What about a damaged fuel line sucking air??? Anybody have any ideas. Thanks, btw this is pushing two years of an upper half rebuild. Fun.

1974 Painted Desert 455 upper half rebuild constant project inexperienced mechanic Grand Rapids Mi Always trying to learn
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274833 is a reply to message #274827] Thu, 02 April 2015 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
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budworks521 wrote on Thu, 02 April 2015 16:28
I have tried numerous things to get the 455 running right. My carb has been totally rebuilt and I can get proper vaccuum when idling for 15 minutes or so then it just bogs out and the vac steadily decreases. I have tried timing, idle screws, vapor cannister, etc and still can't figure out my issue. I don't believe the float is damaged or the accelator pump is damaged. I experienced this flooding before the carb was rebuilt as well. Does anyone have any ideas what could increase the fuel pressure to the carb??? What about a damaged fuel line sucking air??? Anybody have any ideas. Thanks, btw this is pushing two years of an upper half rebuild. Fun.
It sounds like you are pretty sure it is flooding and getting too much fuel. If it is, it's pretty difficult for a mechanical pump to supply too much pressure assuming it was the correct one in the first place. They are pretty cheap so replacing it is much easier if you remove the RH inner fender panel.


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274835 is a reply to message #274833] Thu, 02 April 2015 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loffen is currently offline  Loffen   Norway
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Did you use the correct carb to manifold gasket ?

1973 23' # 1848 Sky Blue Glacier called Baby Blue and a 1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Green, And sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel in Norway
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274836 is a reply to message #274835] Thu, 02 April 2015 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Otterwan   United States
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This may be way to obvious, but is the choke opening fully?

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."
Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274838 is a reply to message #274833] Thu, 02 April 2015 17:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
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Gee, it sounds like your carb problem is ignition module related. The
modules and mechanical fuel pumps are about the same price, and the module
is easier to change than the pump. As the engine warms up, the module
sometimes will act up, and then as the engine gets warmer than that, will
quit altogether. The coil will do the same thing. Ask Ken Henderson about
his issues that he thought were carb related. At least check for spark when
the engine quits the next time. If it isn't burning the fuel, it will mimic
carb flooding. Just saying.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Apr 2, 2015 3:45 PM, "Bob de Kruyff" wrote:

> budworks521 wrote on Thu, 02 April 2015 16:28
>> I have tried numerous things to get the 455 running right. My carb has
> been totally rebuilt and I can get proper vaccuum when idling for 15
>> minutes or so then it just bogs out and the vac steadily decreases. I
> have tried timing, idle screws, vapor cannister, etc and still can't figure
>> out my issue. I don't believe the float is damaged or the accelator pump
> is damaged. I experienced this flooding before the carb was rebuilt as
>> well. Does anyone have any ideas what could increase the fuel pressure
> to the carb??? What about a damaged fuel line sucking air??? Anybody have
> any
>> ideas. Thanks, btw this is pushing two years of an upper half rebuild.
> Fun.
> It sounds like you are pretty sure it is flooding and getting too much
> fuel. If it is, it's pretty difficult for a mechanical pump to supply too
> much
> pressure assuming it was the correct one in the first place. They are
> pretty cheap so replacing it is much easier if you remove the RH inner
> fender
> panel.
>
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274839 is a reply to message #274835] Thu, 02 April 2015 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loffen is currently offline  Loffen   Norway
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And please tell us more about the flooding, what happens ?
And as Bob says, so is it hardly the mechanical fuel pump, more likely the float or needle valve.


1973 23' # 1848 Sky Blue Glacier called Baby Blue and a 1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Green, And sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel in Norway
Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274840 is a reply to message #274838] Thu, 02 April 2015 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loffen is currently offline  Loffen   Norway
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Location: Norway
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Good point there James, could be the module.
As in any carb adjustments, start with the ignition Cool

James Hupy wrote on Fri, 03 April 2015 00:55
Gee, it sounds like your carb problem is ignition module related. The
modules and mechanical fuel pumps are about the same price, and the module
is easier to change than the pump. As the engine warms up, the module
sometimes will act up, and then as the engine gets warmer than that, will
quit altogether. The coil will do the same thing. Ask Ken Henderson about
his issues that he thought were carb related. At least check for spark when
the engine quits the next time. If it isn't burning the fuel, it will mimic
carb flooding. Just saying.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Oregon
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Apr 2, 2015 3:45 PM, "Bob de Kruyff" wrote:

> budworks521 wrote on Thu, 02 April 2015 16:28
>> I have tried numerous things to get the 455 running right. My carb has
> been totally rebuilt and I can get proper vaccuum when idling for 15
>> minutes or so then it just bogs out and the vac steadily decreases. I
> have tried timing, idle screws, vapor cannister, etc and still can't figure
>> out my issue. I don't believe the float is damaged or the accelator pump
> is damaged. I experienced this flooding before the carb was rebuilt as
>> well. Does anyone have any ideas what could increase the fuel pressure
> to the carb??? What about a damaged fuel line sucking air??? Anybody have
> any
>> ideas. Thanks, btw this is pushing two years of an upper half rebuild.
> Fun.
> It sounds like you are pretty sure it is flooding and getting too much
> fuel. If it is, it's pretty difficult for a mechanical pump to supply too
> much
> pressure assuming it was the correct one in the first place. They are
> pretty cheap so replacing it is much easier if you remove the RH inner
> fender
> panel.
>
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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1973 23' # 1848 Sky Blue Glacier called Baby Blue and a 1973 26'-3 # 1460 Parrot green Seqouia Known as the Big Green, And sold my 1973 26'-2 # 581 White Canyon lands under the name Dobbelt trøbbel in Norway
Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274842 is a reply to message #274838] Thu, 02 April 2015 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ray Erspamer is currently offline  Ray Erspamer   United States
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Is your choke working properly?


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------
From: Lawrence Harrison
Date: 04/02/2015 5:28 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical
fuel pump?

I have tried numerous things to get the 455 running right. My carb has been totally rebuilt and I can get proper vaccuum when idling for 15 minutes or
so then it just bogs out and the vac steadily decreases. I have tried timing, idle screws, vapor cannister, etc and still can't figure out my issue. I
don't believe the float is damaged or the accelator pump is damaged. I experienced this flooding before the carb was rebuilt as well. Does anyone have
any ideas what could increase the fuel pressure to the carb??? What about a damaged fuel line sucking air??? Anybody have any ideas. Thanks, btw this
is pushing two years of an upper half rebuild. Fun.
--
1974 Painted Desert
455 upper half rebuild
constant project inexperienced mechanic
Grand Rapids Mi
Always trying to learn
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Ray Erspamer 78 GMC Royale Center Kitchen 403, 3.70 Final Drive Holley Sniper Quadrajet EFI System, Holley Hyperspark Ignition System 414-484-9431
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274844 is a reply to message #274827] Thu, 02 April 2015 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Oh Man Bud,

I wish you were a little closer than GR. (3+hours)
Bob is right. It is virtually impossible for the mechanical pump to supply too much pressure.
You See, they don't really pump, they suck... (lets not go there) They pull fuel in and then let a spring push the fuel on from there.

I have an "off the wall" for you.
Is a muffler blocked?? If one is and you idle for that long, you could be boiling the fuel in the carburetor because there is too much heat in the intake.

If you are going to check this, GET A FACE SHIELD <= Not a request,<= and run the engine with the air cleaner open. If you don't see fuel bubbling over and going into the engine, then that is not your problem.

If the vacuum is dropping, that could also be a crack in the intake that is opening up when things get hot.

Matt
budworks521 wrote on Thu, 02 April 2015 18:28
I have tried numerous things to get the 455 running right. My carb has been totally rebuilt and I can get proper vaccuum when idling for 15 minutes or so then it just bogs out and the vac steadily decreases. I have tried timing, idle screws, vapor cannister, etc and still can't figure out my issue. I don't believe the float is damaged or the accelator pump is damaged. I experienced this flooding before the carb was rebuilt as well. Does anyone have any ideas what could increase the fuel pressure to the carb??? What about a damaged fuel line sucking air??? Anybody have any ideas. Thanks, btw this is pushing two years of an upper half rebuild. Fun.



Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274881 is a reply to message #274827] Fri, 03 April 2015 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carl S. is currently offline  Carl S.   United States
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budworks521 wrote on Thu, 02 April 2015 15:28
I have tried numerous things to get the 455 running right. My carb has been totally rebuilt and I can get proper vaccuum when idling for 15 minutes or so then it just bogs out and the vac steadily decreases. I have tried timing, idle screws, vapor cannister, etc and still can't figure out my issue. I don't believe the float is damaged or the accelator pump is damaged. I experienced this flooding before the carb was rebuilt as well. Does anyone have any ideas what could increase the fuel pressure to the carb??? What about a damaged fuel line sucking air??? Anybody have any ideas. Thanks, btw this is pushing two years of an upper half rebuild. Fun.



Could your intake manifold possibly be cracked through to the floor? If this were the case, the crack may be opening up as the engine heats up, causing a vacuum leak from the lifter valley or the exhaust crossover.


Carl Stouffer '75 ex Palm Beach Tucson, AZ. Chuck Aulgur Reaction Arm Disc Brakes, Quadrabags, 3.70 LSD final drive, Lenzi knuckles/hubs, Dodge Truck 16" X 8" front wheels, Rear American Eagles, Solar battery charging. GMCSJ and GMCMI member
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274939 is a reply to message #274827] Fri, 03 April 2015 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
budworks521 is currently offline  budworks521   United States
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Senior Member
I did have the intake off when rebuilding the upper half and it appeared normal? Had it bathed and no noticable cracks. I also did the exhaust manifold block off and the carb choke is about 95% open after I used Dick Patterson's suggestion of using a farmer's choke. It works but I can't tell if it is running too lean or too rich??? I am considering an electric choke that will maybe help the issue. Problem is I had it running great WITHOUT the farmer's choke installed after the rebuild and crossovers blocked. All the symptoms happened mid stream if you will, I could try the module but I had that tested and the coil tested and they came back good. I checked the wires as well. The cap and rotor have been replaced as well. I can go out and buy all kinds of stuff like a module, electric choke, etc and see if the thing starts running right. Maybe I should do that before I consider the fuel pump replacement. I did have some additives, sea foam, added to the gas to see if it would help solve it and that is why I think the diaprahm may be bad??? Thanks I will try some of the suggestions once it gets warmer out. Thanks gentlemnen.

1974 Painted Desert 455 upper half rebuild constant project inexperienced mechanic Grand Rapids Mi Always trying to learn
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274943 is a reply to message #274939] Fri, 03 April 2015 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mikeceli is currently offline  mikeceli   United States
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When holding the engine at a fast idle, gradually decreasing vacuum is a symptom of a plugged/ restricted exhaust.

Try running it w/ the manifolds disconnected or exhaust disconnected as close to the engine as possible. In front of the muffler.
Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274964 is a reply to message #274943] Sat, 04 April 2015 06:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kingsley Coach is currently offline  Kingsley Coach   United States
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Farmers choke ?? Is that a manually operated one?

Mike in NS

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Mike Celi wrote:

> When holding the engine at a fast idle, gradually decreasing vacuum is a
> symptom of a plugged/ restricted exhaust.
>
> Try running it w/ the manifolds disconnected or exhaust disconnected as
> close to the engine as possible. In front of the muffler.
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--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS

Life is too short to hold a grudge; slash some tires and call it even !
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Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #274965 is a reply to message #274964] Sat, 04 April 2015 08:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bdub is currently offline  bdub   United States
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The original choke used a piece of tubing running through the choke stove
in the intake manifold. If you've got no choke stove, you can use
something else on the engine that creates heat.

This is an elegant "Farmers Choke".
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/choke-stove-on-an-aluminum-intake-manifold/p30333-choke-stove-replacement.html
It wraps tubing around a brass extension for the heater hose connection
from the right rear of the engine.

Mine (more authentic) simply wraps around the exhaust manifold.

bdub

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015 at 6:08 AM, Kingsley Coach
wrote:

> Farmers choke ?? Is that a manually operated one?
>
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bdub
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Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #275057 is a reply to message #274827] Sun, 05 April 2015 10:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
budworks521 is currently offline  budworks521   United States
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I already pulled the muffler off on the driver's side and was going to replace it. I have the new muffler waiting for install. The driver's bank intake is the side in question since it is quite evident that unspent fuel is burning on the intake manifold and blackening it. The driver's side is the side in question. It should be noted that a compression check reveals 129 to 137 ratings which Dick patterson says is normal for an engine with 135k on it. The exhaust manifolds are all new with copper gaskets.One progress I did make was when I plugged the line to the vapor cannister off the front of the carb that the dripping noise inside the manifold ceased. It used to sound like a popping noise inside the carb which has now stopped. Quite baffling. I sure wish I could find a local guy to assist me but that is a tall order or request. All this stuff happened after taking to a reputable service department snow balling ever since. I could yank the other muffler but not sure if ther exhaust is plugged. Thanks

1974 Painted Desert 455 upper half rebuild constant project inexperienced mechanic Grand Rapids Mi Always trying to learn
Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #275058 is a reply to message #274827] Sun, 05 April 2015 10:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
budworks521 is currently offline  budworks521   United States
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Matt, do you have any objections if I private message you or called you. The help would truly be appreciated and I know the area you live in quite well. I grew up in Roseville. Thanks

1974 Painted Desert 455 upper half rebuild constant project inexperienced mechanic Grand Rapids Mi Always trying to learn
Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #275060 is a reply to message #275057] Sun, 05 April 2015 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bdub is currently offline  bdub   United States
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Gasoline burning on the intake manifold? Yikes!

On the 455s in our motorhomes, most have the paint burned off on either side
of the carb because of the heat created by the exhaust crossover. That
crossover connects the right and left exhaust ports. It is there to warm
the carb quickly after startup and for use by the choke. Most of us block
it off to prement cracking the intake if it's not too late. If so, we then
seal the crack.

It could be that your passenger side muffler might be restricting passage,
causing that hot gas to take an easier route through the crossover and down
the drivers side. That would make the intake crossover conduct even more
heat.

Just an idea
bdub


-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist On Behalf Of Lawrence Harrison
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 10:34 AM

...snip...
The driver's bank intake is the side in question since it is quite evident
that unspent fuel is burning on the intake manifold and blackening it.
...snip...


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bdub
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Re: Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #275063 is a reply to message #274827] Sun, 05 April 2015 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
larry.whisler is currently offline  larry.whisler   United States
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a couple of other easy items to check:

Is your fuel tank venting properly? you might try loosening the gas cap
to see if it makes any difference.

is your mechanical spark advance working properly?

One other item worth considering is a possible voltage drop
to the ignition system when the engine reaches operating temperature?

[Updated on: Sun, 05 April 2015 13:17]

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Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #275066 is a reply to message #275063] Sun, 05 April 2015 12:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
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Larry, I was looking back over your original question regarding replacement
of a mechanical fuel pump. Realized that we have strayed a tiny bit off of
that, so I had a thought that no one had mentioned that when you have the
pump off, you ought to use a piece of 1/8 " welding rod or plain old
bailing wire with a "j" bent in the very end to get a hold of the timing
chain to check for excessive slack in the chain. 1/8 to 3/16" movement in
the chain while pulling and pushing with the hook is normal. Any more than
that indicates a worn chain and something to keep your eye on. If there is
a great deal of slack, 1/2" or more, you might need a new set of chain and
sprockets pretty soon. This will account for retarded cam timing, and
erattic ignition timing as well because the distributor gear is driven with
the cam, and slack, or more accurately slap in the chain will cause that.
Jim Hupy
a couple of other easy items to check:

Is your fuel tank venting properly? you might try loosening the gas cap
to see if it makes any difference.

is your mechanical spark advance working properly?


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Re: [GMCnet] Any warnings or things to do when replacing a mechanical fuel pump? [message #275110 is a reply to message #275066] Sun, 05 April 2015 22:03 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
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James Hupy wrote on Sun, 05 April 2015 11:12
Larry, I was looking back over your original question regarding replacement
of a mechanical fuel pump. Realized that we have strayed a tiny bit off of
that, so I had a thought that no one had mentioned that when you have the
pump off, you ought to use a piece of 1/8 " welding rod or plain old
bailing wire with a "j" bent in the very end to get a hold of the timing
chain to check for excessive slack in the chain. 1/8 to 3/16" movement in
the chain while pulling and pushing with the hook is normal. Any more than
that indicates a worn chain and something to keep your eye on. If there is
a great deal of slack, 1/2" or more, you might need a new set of chain and
sprockets pretty soon. This will account for retarded cam timing, and
erattic ignition timing as well because the distributor gear is driven with
the cam, and slack, or more accurately slap in the chain will cause that.
Jim Hupy
a couple of other easy items to check:

Is your fuel tank venting properly? you might try loosening the gas cap
to see if it makes any difference.

is your mechanical spark advance working properly?


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Now that's a keeper for all of us!


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
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