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Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270012]

Mon, 19 January 2015 15:56

biggreen

Messages: 347
Registered: June 2011
Location: Northeast Florida

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Took 'er for a ride yesterday and after about 5 miles, light traffic and about 60 degrees, she started to die on acceleration. Switched on the electric fuel pump and problem solved.
I have a fresh (maybe 200 miles) Patterson rebuilt carb, new lines and senders, filters, clean tanks, etc.
The mechanical fuel pump is the original (54000mi).
Whaddya think, should I replace it? Or maybe something else?
Thanks.

77ex Palmbeach 403/355

R.D. Northeast Florida 77 ex-Palm Beach 403

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270013 is a reply to message #270012]

Mon, 19 January 2015 16:07

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

It is impossible to remotely guess if that is your problem. If it were warmer I would suggest vapor lock. I do not usually suggest throwing parts at a problem. That said, they are cheap and easy to replace. Throw one at it and see what happens.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270015 is a reply to message #270013]

Mon, 19 January 2015 16:24

Otterwan

Messages: 946
Registered: July 2013
Location: Lynnwood (north of Seattl...

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Ken Burton wrote on Mon, 19 January 2015 14:07

It is impossible to remotely guess if that is your problem. If it were warmer I would suggest vapor lock. I do not usually suggest throwing parts at a problem. That said, they are cheap and easy to replace. Throw one at it and see what happens.

I'd install it rather than throwing it at your coach. You can always throw the one you took off at the coach if the new one doesn't solve the problem!

1977 Birchaven, Lynnwood WA - "We may not be able to stop all evil in the world, but I know that how we treat one another is entirely up to us."

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270074 is a reply to message #270012]

Wed, 21 January 2015 10:15

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

How about testing the pump?

Remove fuel line at the carb, put a hose on it and stick into a container. Run engine for 10 secs. Thumb rule: you should get about a pint or more. (Good volume) Then do a pressure test. You should get about 4 PSI. Also check for fuel filters in the line ahead of the pump.

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270075 is a reply to message #270012]

Wed, 21 January 2015 10:42

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

I just re-read your post. (New lines and filters) that should rule out a filter problem. I can't imagine having vapor lock problems at 60 degrees and the conditions you describe. If you do replace the pump, may I suggest using a 3 port pump from an AC equipped Toronado, and plumb in a 1/4" return line as seen in the next photos. You could also use a 3 port Filter for 3/8"lines but I like the pump option better. (Check out the entire album)
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p41489-3-port-fuel-pump.html

http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p41459-fuel-pump-return-line-to-fill-tube.html
I'll upload a photo and part number for a 3 port filter a bit later.

Best regards

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270079 is a reply to message #270075]

Wed, 21 January 2015 14:00

appie

Messages: 902
Registered: April 2013
Location: denmark

Karma: 2

Senior Member

what would be the advantage of the 3 port pump?

Appie eleganza 76 "Olga" now sadly sold 6 wheel discbrake Quadrabags Springfield stage 2 462 olds Manny tranny ( pictures at http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6489-olga.html Fulltiming in Europe july 2014 til july 2016 Denmark

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270081 is a reply to message #270012]

Wed, 21 January 2015 14:58

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

The 3 port pump flows a small amount of fuel back to the tank. Keeping the fuel around the pump and fuel lines cool.
(Comparatively ) the cool fuel will not boil and cause vapor lock. Ive given a bit better explanation in the description of the photo I linked to. Here is the link again (for those on email )
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p41489-3-port-fuel-pump.html
Another problem is older fuel pumps (+10 years old) will have the rubber valves breaking down from the fuel and will leak more than new and will vapor lock a lot easier. (Don't forget that vapor lock is really fuel vapor passing easily back and forth past the intake check valve and not moving liquid)

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270085 is a reply to message #270081]

Wed, 21 January 2015 17:01

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

G'day, If the mechanical fuel pump is the original it probably would be a good idea to replace it as the diaphragm probably isn't compatible with fuel that has ethanol in it. New pumps are cheap.

Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270128 is a reply to message #270012]

Thu, 22 January 2015 02:24

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Here is the 3 port Fuel Filter that can be used to cool the fuel pump and fuel to help eliminate vapor lock. It's even a good option if you use an electric pusher pump. It will deliver fuel with less vapor to the Carb. The Carb will give a better fuel air mix when excessive fuel vapor is not being ingested from the float bowl venting system.
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p57074-3-port-fuel-filter.html

Of course you could use a more active fuel cooling strategy, using the Air Conditioning to do the cooling, such as the following. Maybe it would cool the entire fuel tank. (I have No experience trying one of these, but it intrigues me)
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p57075-ac-cooled-fuel-cooler.html

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: [GMCnet] Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270131 is a reply to message #270081]

Thu, 22 January 2015 03:09

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

John,

I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree with you on this. If the OAT is 90° F the fuel will reach that temperature and higher as there
is heat reflected from the road surface. I can't see how the fuel being recirculated can go below the OAT unless there is something
that will remove the heat.

Regards,
Rob M.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Heslinga

The 3 port pump flows a small amount of fuel back to the tank. Keeping the fuel around the pump and fuel lines cool.
(Comparatively ) the cool fuel will not boil and cause vapor lock. Ive given a bit better explanation in the description of the
photo I linked to.
Here is the link again (for those on email )
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p41489-3-port-fuel-pump.html
Another problem is older fuel pumps (+10 years old) will have the rubber valves breaking down from the fuel and will leak more than
new and will vapor lock a lot easier. (Don't forget that vapor lock is really fuel vapor passing easily back and forth past the
intake check valve and not moving liquid)
--
John

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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270141 is a reply to message #270131]

Thu, 22 January 2015 09:33

midlf

Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)

Karma: 1

Senior Member

USAussie wrote on Thu, 22 January 2015 03:09

John,

I'm sorry but I'm going to disagree with you on this. If the OAT is 90° F the fuel will reach that temperature and higher as there
is heat reflected from the road surface. I can't see how the fuel being recirculated can go below the OAT unless there is something
that will remove the heat.

Regards,
Rob M.

Correct - the fuel cannot be lower than the OAT (unless you have just filled up). However it can be lower than the engine compartment temperature. The increased fuel flow rate keeps the fuel from reaching the engine compartment temp. This recirc was used by GM as evidenbced by the AC Toro fuel pump and mid '70's Corvettes. I figure GM knew what they were doing and felt it was important enough to spend the extra nickles to do it.

Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270151 is a reply to message #270012]

Thu, 22 January 2015 12:04

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Rob:

I have a Rebuttal, however I Find Im going to need to write an Essay. Almost impossible with my phone.

Give me a couple of days and I'll write a new post.
Best Regards

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270260 is a reply to message #270081]

Fri, 23 January 2015 18:16

biggreen

Messages: 347
Registered: June 2011
Location: Northeast Florida

Karma: 1

Senior Member

John Heslinga wrote on Wed, 21 January 2015 14:58

The 3 port pump flows a small amount of fuel back to the tank. Keeping the fuel around the pump and fuel lines cool.
(Comparatively ) the cool fuel will not boil and cause vapor lock. Ive given a bit better explanation in the description of the photo I linked to. Here is the link again (for those on email )
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p41489-3-port-fuel-pump.html
Another problem is older fuel pumps (+10 years old) will have the rubber valves breaking down from the fuel and will leak more than new and will vapor lock a lot easier. (Don't forget that vapor lock is really fuel vapor passing easily back and forth past the intake check valve and not moving liquid)

Forgive me if I missed it but what are the part #'s on the 3 port pump?
The interchange guide only lists the standard.
Thanks.

R.D. Northeast Florida 77 ex-Palm Beach 403

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270288 is a reply to message #270012]

Sat, 24 January 2015 00:49

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Here are some numbers to help at the parts counter

Airtex 40736
Bosch 68622
Carter M6109

Ask for a Pump for:
74-77 Olds Toronado Broughm 455 with Air

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270297 is a reply to message #270288]

Sat, 24 January 2015 10:06

biggreen

Messages: 347
Registered: June 2011
Location: Northeast Florida

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Thanks, John

R.D. Northeast Florida 77 ex-Palm Beach 403

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Re: [GMCnet] Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270318 is a reply to message #270288]

Sat, 24 January 2015 16:18

k2gkk

Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009

Karma: -8

Senior Member

I believe the "correct" Carter pump is M6108. The M6109 is the one with extra outlet and different orientation than the 6108. The insulated fuel lines from JimK and JimB won't fit with the 6109.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
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> Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2015 23:49:58 -0700
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: rbeeper@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Do I need a fuel pump?
>
> Here are some numbers to help at the parts counter
>
> Airtex 40736
> Bosch 68622
> Carter M6109
>
> Ask for a Pump for:
> 74-77 Olds Toronado Broughm 455 with Air
>
>
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
> 1974 Canyonlands 260
> 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:73 LS,
> TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
> Retirement Projects Galore
> Edmonton, Alberta
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270344 is a reply to message #270012]

Sat, 24 January 2015 21:31

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Gee Mac, I'm pretty sure we were talking about using a 3 port pump.

Quote?
Quote:

Forgive me if I missed it but what are the part #'s on the 3 port pump?

Best Regards

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: [GMCnet] Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270348 is a reply to message #270344]

Sat, 24 January 2015 21:43

k2gkk

Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009

Karma: -8

Senior Member

Sorry, I did not see anything that said a 3 port pump was being discussed.

Mac

> Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2015 20:31:45 -0700
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: rbeeper@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Do I need a fuel pump?
>
> Gee Mac, I'm pretty sure we were talking about using a 3 port pump.
>
> Quote?
> Quote:
>> Forgive me if I missed it but what are the part #'s on the 3 port pump?
>
>
> Best Regards
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
> 1974 Canyonlands 260
> 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:73 LS,
> TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
> Retirement Projects Galore
> Edmonton, Alberta
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist

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Re: Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270352 is a reply to message #270012]

Sat, 24 January 2015 22:43

John Heslinga

Messages: 632
Registered: February 2011
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Karma: 4

Senior Member

Hey Mac:
No Worries
I'm looking forward to buying you a beer and talking somtime!!
Best Regards

John and Cathie Heslinga 1974 Canyonlands 260 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:70 LS, Red Seal Journeyman, DTE, BEd. MEd. Edmonton, Alberta

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Re: [GMCnet] Do I need a fuel pump? [message #270365 is a reply to message #270352]

Sun, 25 January 2015 05:54

Mr ERFisher

Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005

Karma: 2

Senior Member

read here
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/3-port-recirculating-fuel-pump/p41501-3-port-fuel-pump.html

erf

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:43 PM, John Heslinga wrote:

> Hey Mac:
> No Worries
> I'm looking forward to buying you a beer and talking somtime!!
> Best Regards
> --
> John and Cathie Heslinga
> 1974 Canyonlands 260
> 455, Manny tranny and 1 ton, 3:73 LS,
> TC4W "Too Cool For Words"
> Retirement Projects Galore
> Edmonton, Alberta
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>

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