Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Pushing against the wind. (Guess what happens when the oil cooler fan is wired up backward?)
| Pushing against the wind. [message #268940] |
Mon, 05 January 2015 21:08  |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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2013 was one of significant changes for our coach. We got a new engine, a new Manny Tranny with Power drive, installed a 3.21 diff, 1 ton, Manny brakes, and a bunch more. The engine failure made me nervous about reusing the oil cooler so I installed an aftermarket, standalone, fan forced oil cooler. It lives in front of the right front wheel well and exhausts down. It works great but I did notice it seemed to run a lot, specifically it would run for a few minutes after I shut down.
Today, I happened was doing something under the coach and the oil cooler was still running. I was near it and noticed an updraft. Humm, why is there an updraft? Upon investigation, I realized the blower was pulling up and blowing forward rather than pushing down and back. DUH!  
So running down the road the fan was pushing against the air flow resulting in less air going over the coils. I fixed that and expect it will be more efficient now. 
It has a 180° thermostat and I'm going to look for one that is about a little higher than the oil going to it in normal situations....probably 215° or so.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #268948 is a reply to message #268940] |
Mon, 05 January 2015 23:11  |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Kerry,
I don't understand your concern about the oil temperature; please explain why you want the oil returning to the engine to be higher
than 180°?
Regards,
Rob M.
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Pinkerton
2013 was one of significant changes for our coach. We got a new engine, a new Manny Tranny with Power drive, installed a 3.21 diff,
1 ton, Manny brakes, and a bunch more. The engine failure made me nervous about reusing the oil cooler so I installed an
aftermarket, standalone, fan forced oil cooler. It lives in front of the right front wheel well and exhausts down. It works great
but I did notice it seemed to run a lot, specifically it would run for a few minutes after I shut down.
Today, I happened was doing something under the coach and the oil cooler was still running. I was near it and noticed an updraft.
Humm, why is there an updraft? Upon investigation, I realized the blower was pulling up and blowing forward rather than pushing
down and back. DUH! :blush: 8)
So running down the road the fan was pushing against the air flow resulting in less air going over the coils. I fixed that and
expect it will be more efficient now. :lol: :lol: :lol:
It has a 180° thermostat and I'm going to look for one that is about a little higher than the oil going to it in normal
situations....probably 215° or so.
--
Kerry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #268969 is a reply to message #268948] |
Tue, 06 January 2015 08:06 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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USAussie wrote on Mon, 05 January 2015 23:11...I don't understand your concern about the oil temperature; please explain why you want the oil returning to the engine to be higher
than 180°?.
MAINLY just noise Rob. With the new fan the oil cooler fan can actually be heard in the cockpit. It's kind of a whiny noise exactly the same as some cars that you hear their radiator fans running after the engine is shut off. At speed you can't hear it but at low speed and stopped you can. I'm going to put the inner wheel wells back in today and that may stop the noise from being heard. If it does, I won't even think about if the fan runs or not.
That said, my thinking is this. My 180° thermostat keeps the block and oil at a pretty steady state temperature wise. I don't know what oil temp is at a 180° coolant temp but for discussion let us call it 210° (Thanks for the ASCII table btw). The oil cooler radiator offers some cooling without the fan. If I get a 210° thermostat for the oil cooler fan, then it would not run until the engine started to get a bit hotter.
It would probably be a good idea to measure the temp drop across the oil cooler and as a temporary measure, I could make sure the HOT oil goes in the bottom and the cooled oil comes out by the thermostat switch. To be honest, I don't know how it is currently plumbed.
It's not a high priority project.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #268983 is a reply to message #268969] |
Tue, 06 January 2015 09:51 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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Because my airplane engine is air cooled, engine temperature is measured by watching the oil temperature. Keep in mind this is already cooled oil coming out of the pan headed to the internals of the engine. 90 to 180 is the normal operating range. 190 and above is in the red arc of the gage. When above 180 we back off on engine power or open the cowl flaps to try to get the oil temperature back below 180 for normal operation.
From that experience I would try to keep the oil temperature below 180. I have no idea what the oil temperature is coming out of a normal GMC oil cooler.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #269028 is a reply to message #268969] |
Tue, 06 January 2015 16:32 |
George Beckman
Messages: 1085
Registered: October 2008
Location: Colfax, CA
Karma: 11
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kerry pinkerton wrote on Tue, 06 January 2015 06:06USAussie wrote on Mon, 05 January 2015 23:11...I don't understand your concern about the oil temperature; please explain why you want the oil returning to the engine to be higher
than 180°?.
MAINLY just noise Rob. With the new fan the oil cooler fan can actually be heard in the cockpit. It's kind of a whiny noise exactly the same as some cars that you hear their radiator fans running after the engine is shut off. .
.
Hey, Kerry, maybe it won't whine so much now that it is turning the right direction! *smile*
'74 Eleganza, SE, Howell + EBL
Best Wishes,
George
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| Re: Pushing against the wind. [message #269374 is a reply to message #269367] |
Sat, 10 January 2015 13:43 |
Ken Burton
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
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I wish Dan had the shirt when we replaced the AC compressor in his coach at Paterson, LA. 3 trips to the auto parts store and after that it leaked. It had to be pulled again replaced a second time.
Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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| Re: Pushing against the wind. [message #269446 is a reply to message #268940] |
Mon, 12 January 2015 08:56 |
JohnL455
Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
Karma: 12
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I believe your good intentions are bad for your new engine. Your oil needs to run consistantly over 212 to boil off acid producing water. These things use a lot of fuel and produce a lot of water. In the C4 Corvette ZR1 the oil cooler is as big as the radiator, but there is a thermostat in the oil filter addaptor housing to only send oil to the cooler as needed. Otherwise the oil would be way too cold just cruising down the highway at reasonable speeds.
John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #269449 is a reply to message #269446] |
Mon, 12 January 2015 09:02 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Remember also that John Beaver says he tells his race car drivers, "I don't
want you to see oil temps below 250*F."
Ken H.
On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 9:56 AM, John R. Lebetski
wrote:
> I believe your good intentions are bad for your new engine. Your oil needs
> to run consistantly over 212 to boil off acid producing water. These things
> use a lot of fuel and produce a lot of water. In the C4 Corvette ZR1 the
> oil cooler is as big as the radiator, but there is a thermostat in the oil
> filter addaptor housing to only send oil to the cooler as needed.
> Otherwise the oil would be way too cold just cruising down the highway at
> reasonable
> speeds.
> --
> John Lebetski
> Woodstock, IL
> 77 Eleganza II
> Source America First
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #269504 is a reply to message #269449] |
Mon, 12 January 2015 16:47 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Ken,
I'm up to my ears in alligators down here with things I'm handling as the Secretary of the owners corporation of our factory unit
complex or I'd look the following up.
I agree that the oil has to go above 212° F to boil out the moisture and I believe that oil leaving the engine will hit that easily
even with a oil cooler outlet of 180°.
I have a trans temp and H2O temp gage on Double Trouble's Digi Panel, With a 160° F thermostat, aluminum radiator, and 4" cast iron
H2O pump impeller both temps run at around 175° F going down the highway at 60-65 MPH. I have a 2" temp gage on a remote panel that
runs the same.
Regarding wanting oil temps above 250° I thought dino based engine oil began to loose it's lubricating properties at around 250°?
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Gmclist [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Ken Henderson
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2015 2:03 AM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind.
Remember also that John Beaver says he tells his race car drivers, "I don't
want you to see oil temps below 250*F."
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #269525 is a reply to message #269504] |
Mon, 12 January 2015 19:24 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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Rob,
I think you're making a mistake to reduce from the factory-installed 195*F
thermostat to 160*F. Why would you want to do that when the thermodynamic
efficiency increases with temperature? That without even considering the
detrimental effects of pollutant accumulation.
I no longer monitor both, but when I had temperature sensors in both the
engine oil pan and the outgoing side of the oil filter, I frequently saw
200+*F in the pan and 50*F higher in the filter. It always amazed me that
the pump contributed that much heat to the oil -- but it did. Generally,
the pan temp was 15-20*F higher than the H2O temp after everything was
stabilized.
I don't recall where dino oil's supposed to break down, but I always use
synthetic anyway so don't worry about it. I DO recall that the recommended
maximum for ATF, in the P-30 Chassis Owners' Manual, is 300*F. As Alex
Sirum told me: "If the oil temp bothers you, put electrical tape on the
gauge."
JMHO,
Ken H.
On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 5:47 PM, Robert Mueller
wrote:
> Ken,
>
> I'm up to my ears in alligators down here with things I'm handling as the
> Secretary of the owners corporation of our factory unit
> complex or I'd look the following up.
>
> I agree that the oil has to go above 212° F to boil out the moisture and I
> believe that oil leaving the engine will hit that easily
> even with a oil cooler outlet of 180°.
>
> I have a trans temp and H2O temp gage on Double Trouble's Digi Panel, With
> a 160° F thermostat, aluminum radiator, and 4" cast iron
> H2O pump impeller both temps run at around 175° F going down the highway
> at 60-65 MPH. I have a 2" temp gage on a remote panel that
> runs the same.
>
> Regarding wanting oil temps above 250° I thought dino based engine oil
> began to loose it's lubricating properties at around 250°?
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #269542 is a reply to message #269525] |
Mon, 12 January 2015 22:50 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Ken,
I agree 100%!
It was in there when I bought Double Trouble with the brass radiator. I have a 195° F Robertshaw to install.
There is something bizarre about the aluminum radiator; the temperature of the engine can actually run BELOW 165° F. In theory that's impossible but that's what it does! I know the temp sensor in the intake manifold is submerged in water.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Rob,
I think you're making a mistake to reduce from the factory-installed 195*F
thermostat to 160*F. Why would you want to do that when the thermodynamic
efficiency increases with temperature? That without even considering the
detrimental effects of pollutant accumulation.
I no longer monitor both, but when I had temperature sensors in both the
engine oil pan and the outgoing side of the oil filter, I frequently saw
200+*F in the pan and 50*F higher in the filter. It always amazed me that
the pump contributed that much heat to the oil -- but it did. Generally,
the pan temp was 15-20*F higher than the H2O temp after everything was
stabilized.
I don't recall where dino oil's supposed to break down, but I always use
synthetic anyway so don't worry about it. I DO recall that the recommended
maximum for ATF, in the P-30 Chassis Owners' Manual, is 300*F. As Alex
Sirum told me: "If the oil temp bothers you, put electrical tape on the
gauge."
JMHO,
Ken H.
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GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #269544 is a reply to message #269542] |
Mon, 12 January 2015 22:53 |
Ken Henderson
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
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Senior Member |
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You know, temperature gauges have been known, on rare occasions, to read
low...
Ken H.
On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:50 PM, Robert Mueller
wrote:
> ...
>
> There is something bizarre about the aluminum radiator; the temperature of
> the engine can actually run BELOW 165° F. In theory that's impossible but
> that's what it does! I know the temp sensor in the intake manifold is
> submerged in water.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
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| Re: [GMCnet] Pushing against the wind. [message #269548 is a reply to message #269544] |
Mon, 12 January 2015 23:42 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Agreed, we'll see what happens when I install the 195° thermostat.
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
You know, temperature gauges have been known, on rare occasions, to read
low...
Ken H.
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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