John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268772] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 10:19 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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Here is a synopsis of the presentation John gave at Chippewa Falls.
John Biwersi has helped develop a balanced 8 blade reinforced composite fan that is quieter and pulls more air. He utilized data that Steve Ferguson did regarding fan clutches and their engaged and disengaged speed in order to make a recommendation for the proper fan clutch for this new fan. The new fan is some type of plastic like you see on new diesels. I think it has 8 blades. The hub is drilled for our clutches and is balanced. Moves more air and is quieter according to the manufacturer. Also according to the manufacturer (if I recall correctly) the new fan takes less power to turn even while moving more air. The price is slightly AROUND $120 if I recall correctly but don't hold me to it. I got one from him at the Chippewa Falls GMCMI rally.
John is a member here. I don't want to post his info but if anyone wants it, PM or email me.
John uses the severe duty clutch on his coach with a stock radiator but just after I ordered my new severe duty clutch, Bob Dunahugh posted this:
Quote:I was having problems with 2 new Hayden severe duty clutch's not disengaging my engine fan. That's the one that is suggested in our parts book. I've never had problems with their products. And why was there a standard duty, heavy duty, and a severe duty listed in our parts book. The stock GMC fan has 7 blades, and a 2.25 inch pitch. It rotates at a fixed ratio to the crankshaft. So the clutch load is constant to the crank speed. The clutch has 2 operating conditions. Engaged. Or disengaged. Nothing else. And the engaged operation is based on the temperature of the air coming from the radiator to the coil spring on the front side of the unit. This spring tells the clutch what needs to be done for proper engine cooling. So back to my question.
What can the severe duty do the the heavy duty can't. As the unit just turns the fan blade on, or off. Duty cycle shouldn't be the issue. It's a fluid type clutch. And, these units just don't turn on, or off that off ton in our type of service. In my mind. I was missing something. So I called Hayden.
What I found out was that for our size, and number of blades. It goes like this. A 2.00 inch pitch blade would require their standard duty unit. A 2.25 inch pitch blade requires their heavy duty unit. And the 2.50 inch pitch would require their sever duty unit. He stated that if you put a sever duty unit on the 2.25 pitch blade that we have. ( Remember. That sever duty unit was designed for the load of the 2.5 inch pitch blade. ) The sever duty clutch unit can encounter problems having enough load to properly disengage. So to have the fan pull more air. Go to a 2.5 inch pitch blade . And then use the sever duty clutch unit. In short. The heavy duty unit should be use for our fan blades that have the 2.25 inch pitch fan. No others.
Given this info and the fact that my aluminum radiator is more efficient than stock AND my oil cooler is not in the radiator (thereby decreasing the heat load) I ordered and installed a standard duty clutch and installed it with the new fan blade. I'll keep the severe duty clutch for a while just in case.
My clutch was a severe duty unit that would be engaged most the time and when it did release it was still loud. The new standard unit engages when the coach first starts and disengages shortly after the temperature gauge starts to come up. So far, it has not needed to come on again. Perhaps it will on the trip. My temperature stays rock solid at 180 degrees. It is MUCH, MUCH quieter. I can actually hear the fan on my aftermarket oil cooler cycle on and off as needed. I never could before.
I was planning on waiting until I had the upcoming trip to LazyDays on the coach before I posted but the above is what I know now. I'll post more info when we get back from the rally.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
[Updated on: Sat, 03 January 2015 16:52] Report message to a moderator
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Re: [GMCnet] John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268779 is a reply to message #268772] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 10:54 |
bdub
Messages: 1578 Registered: February 2004 Location: Central Texas
Karma: 5
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How is it possible to be quieter and pull more air? Isn't the roar
actually the sound of the wind created by the fan?
bdub
www.bdub.net/GMCLinks.html
On Jan 3, 2015 10:19 AM, "Kerry Pinkerton" wrote:
> Here is a synopsis of the presentation John gave at Chippewa Falls.
>
> John Biwersi has helped develop a balanced 8 blade reinforced composite
> fan that is quieter and pulls more air. He utilized data that Steve
> Southworth
> did regarding fan clutches and their engaged and disengaged speed in order
> to make a recommendation for the proper fan clutch for this new fan. The
> new fan is some type of plastic like you see on new diesels. I think it
> has 8 blades. The hub is drilled for our clutches and is balanced. Moves
> more
> air and is quieter according to the manufacturer. Also according to the
> manufacturer (if I recall correctly) the new fan takes less power to turn
> even
> while moving more air. The price is slightly AROUND $120 if I recall
> correctly but don't hold me to it. I got one from him at the Chippewa Falls
> GMCMI rally.
>
> John is a member here. I don't want to post his info but if anyone wants
> it, PM or email me.
>
> John uses the severe duty clutch on his coach with a stock radiator but
> just after I ordered my new severe duty clutch, Bob Dunahugh posted this:
>
> Quote:
>> I was having problems with 2 new Hayden severe duty clutch's not
> disengaging my engine fan. That's the one that is suggested in our parts
> book.
>> I've never had problems with their products. And why was there a
> standard duty, heavy duty, and a severe duty listed in our parts book. The
> stock
>> GMC fan has 7 blades, and a 2.25 inch pitch. It rotates at a fixed ratio
> to the crankshaft. So the clutch load is constant to the crank speed. The
>> clutch has 2 operating conditions. Engaged. Or disengaged. Nothing else.
> And the engaged operation is based on the temperature of the air coming
>> from the radiator to the coil spring on the front side of the unit. This
> spring tells the clutch what needs to be done for proper engine cooling. So
>> back to my question.
>>
>> What can the severe duty do the the heavy duty can't. As the unit just
> turns the fan blade on, or off. Duty cycle shouldn't be the issue. It's a
>> fluid type clutch. And, these units just don't turn on, or off that off
> ton in our type of service. In my mind. I was missing something. So I
>> called Hayden.
>>
>> What I found out was that for our size, and number of blades. It goes
> like this. A 2.00 inch pitch blade would require their standard duty unit. A
>> 2.25 inch pitch blade requires their heavy duty unit. And the 2.50 inch
> pitch would require their sever duty unit. He stated that if you put a sever
>> duty unit on the 2.25 pitch blade that we have. ( Remember. That sever
> duty unit was designed for the load of the 2.5 inch pitch blade. ) The sever
>> duty clutch unit can encounter problems having enough load to properly
> disengage. So to have the fan pull more air. Go to a 2.5 inch pitch blade .
>> And then use the sever duty clutch unit. In short. The heavy duty unit
> should be use for our fan blades that have the 2.25 inch pitch fan. No
>> others.
>
>
> Given this info and the fact that my aluminum radiator is more efficient
> than stock AND my oil cooler is not in the radiator (thereby decreasing the
> heat load) I ordered and installed a standard duty clutch and installed it
> with the new fan blade. I'll keep the severe duty clutch for a while just
> in case.
>
> My clutch was a severe duty unit that would be engaged most the time and
> when it did release it was still loud. The new standard unit engages when
> the coach first starts and disengages shortly after the temperature gauge
> starts to come up. So far, it has not needed to come on again. Perhaps it
> will on the trip. My temperature stays rock solid at 180 degrees. It is
> MUCH, MUCH quieter. I can actually hear the fan on my aftermarket oil
> cooler cycle on and off as needed. I never could before.
>
> I was planning on waiting until I had the upcoming trip to LazyDays on the
> coach before I posted but the above is what I know now. I'll post more
> info when we get back from the rally.
>
> --
> Kerry Pinkerton
>
> North Alabama, near Huntsville,
>
> 77 Eleganza II, "The Lady", 403CI, Manny Brakes, 1 ton, tranny also a 76
> Eleganza to be re-bodied as an Art Deco car hauler
> _______________________________________________
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bdub
'76 Palm Beach/Central Texas
www.bdub.net
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Re: John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268781 is a reply to message #268772] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 11:05 |
Steve
Messages: 506 Registered: September 2013 Location: East Greenville, Pa
Karma: 1
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Kerry,
Great information. Cooling is so important. Nearly every engine I have lost over the years has been due to a cooling failure, never a lubrication or wear issue. Thanks for posting.
1978 GMC Royal
Eastern Pennslyvania
1968 Chevrolet C20 396 Camper Special
1969 Chevrolet C20 Camper Special
1985 Buick Electra Park Avenue
1992 Camaro 25th Anniversary Heretage Edition Black
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Re: John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268792 is a reply to message #268772] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 13:09 |
George B.
Messages: 213 Registered: February 2012
Karma: 1
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Senior Member |
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My understanding of a "Severe Duty" fan clutch, in addition to the information cited about blade pitch matching, also has to do with severe duty being intended for low-speed, stop & go urban delivery type vehicles. The design intention being to keep the fan engaged most of the time or longer as these vehicles are typically idling or in slow-moving traffic and infrequently have the advantage of high-speed forward movement to circulate air through the radiator.
George Butts
Las Vegas Nevada
73 "Custom 26' Q" & 76 23' Birchaven
71 Honda 600 Coupe & 01 Tracker Toads
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Re: [GMCnet] John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268796 is a reply to message #268788] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 14:03 |
midlf
Messages: 2212 Registered: July 2007 Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
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Ken Henderson wrote on Sat, 03 January 2015 12:38I think the Steves got confused -- Ferguson did the fan tests. That should
help (search GMCMH Photos for user=botiemad, IIRC).
Ken H.
Correct - it was Ferguson, not I
His photos are here:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5181-tech-stuff.html
I don't know where the data is, if any was posted. The data may have only been in the forum/net posting.
Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
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Re: [GMCnet] John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268807 is a reply to message #268801] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 17:24 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691 Registered: March 2009 Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Kerry
Thank you !
Mike
On Sat, Jan 3, 2015 at 5:54 PM, D C _Mac_ Macdonald
wrote:
> I suspect that most of the "noise" comes from the blades beating the air
> inefficiently due to poor design!
> There are non-automotive fans out there that move lots of air VERY quietly.
>
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
> ~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
> ~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
> ~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
> ~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
> ~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
> ~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
> ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
> ______________
> *[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
> *--OO--[]---O-*
>
>> From: robmueller@iinet.net.au
>> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
>> Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2015 08:29:45 +1100
>> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan
>>
>> Billy,
>>
>> Fan (and propeller) noise is greatly affected by the number of blades
> and the way they are shaped.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> Sydney, Australia
>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Billy Massey
>>
>> How is it possible to be quieter and pull more air? Isn't the roar
> actually the sound of the wind created by the fan?
>>
>> bdub
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
I am not an alcoholic; alcoholics go to meetings.
I am a drunk; I go to parties !
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Re: [GMCnet] John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268811 is a reply to message #268806] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 18:15 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565 Registered: July 2012 Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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bdub wrote on Sat, 03 January 2015 17:22It's a little weird, in this group particularly, that there has not been a
request to substantiate the statement, "the new fan takes less power to
turn even while moving more air".
Maybe I missed the link. There's bound to be a data sheet available
somewhere.
bdub
Billy, you'll need to talk to John Biwersi about that. I think he told us the name of the manufacturer that he worked with.
I could have been mistaken about the more air less power but that is what I recall hearing during his presentation and I have no problem accepting that statement as fact.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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Re: [GMCnet] John Biwersi's new direct replacement fan [message #268817 is a reply to message #268796] |
Sat, 03 January 2015 18:59 |
armandminnie
Messages: 864 Registered: May 2009 Location: Marana, AZ
Karma: 2
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Steve Ferguson's data is on the gmcws web site and I have seen his presentation a couple of times. Steve's experiments were good but they were limited to a low-power electric motor driving the fan clutches with a big GMC fan on them. This setup did not allow Steve to see what happened at higher RPMs which is where the differences between the clutch ratings would show. I was hoping that someone was able to measure the differences on a running engine and was willing to share the data.
Armand Minnie
Marana, AZ
'76 Eleganza II TZE166V103202
visit my gmc blog
click here to visit gmcws.org
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