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[GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267185] Fri, 05 December 2014 13:02 Go to next message
kelvin is currently offline  kelvin   United States
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http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/12/small-engine-packs-punch?et_cid=4302124&et_rid=45586987&location=top

The GMC content here is that they're developing it for lawn and garden
equipment and, wait for it, generators!

“If you look at a 3-kW military generator, it’s a 270-lb gorilla that
takes five people to move around,” Shkolnik says. “You can imagine if we
can make that into a 15-lb device, it’s pretty revolutionary for them.”

Finally something to fit in a 230 generator compartment!

Kelvin
'73 23' in Eugene, OR
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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267186 is a reply to message #267185] Fri, 05 December 2014 13:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daniel DeLuca is currently offline  Daniel DeLuca   United States
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Wish I never sold my RX-7

> On Dec 5, 2014, at 2:02 PM, Kelvin Dietz wrote:
>
> http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/12/small-engine-packs-punch?et_cid=4302124&et_rid=45586987&location=top
>
> The GMC content here is that they're developing it for lawn and garden equipment and, wait for it, generators!
>
> “If you look at a 3-kW military generator, it’s a 270-lb gorilla that takes five people to move around,” Shkolnik says. “You can imagine if we can make that into a 15-lb device, it’s pretty revolutionary for them.”
>
> Finally something to fit in a 230 generator compartment!
>
> Kelvin
> '73 23' in Eugene, OR
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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267190 is a reply to message #267186] Fri, 05 December 2014 15:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Weir is currently offline  Joe Weir   United States
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Daniel DeLuca wrote on Fri, 05 December 2014 13:28
Wish I never sold my RX-7




Same here.

There might be a predictor for TZE disease. Perhaps we need to advertise coaches for sale in the old VW and RX7 forums...


76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center... Columbia, SC.
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267192 is a reply to message #267190] Fri, 05 December 2014 15:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kelvin is currently offline  kelvin   United States
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On 12/5/2014 1:33 PM, Joe Weir wrote:
> Daniel DeLuca wrote on Fri, 05 December 2014 13:28
>> Wish I never sold my RX-7
>
> Same here.
>
> There might be a predictor for TZE disease. Perhaps we need to advertise coaches for sale in the old VW and RX7 forums...

I'm sure it is. It's a "cult car" kind of leaning. FWIW, I sold mine
but bought another. Datsun 510, that is.

FWIW, VWs and 1st Gen RX-7s were to be beaten about the head and
shoulders in my youth. :^)

Kelvin
'73 23' towing a '71 510

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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267196 is a reply to message #267192] Fri, 05 December 2014 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Weir is currently offline  Joe Weir   United States
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Kelvin Dietz wrote on Fri, 05 December 2014 15:39
On 12/5/2014 1:33 PM, Joe Weir wrote:
> Daniel DeLuca wrote on Fri, 05 December 2014 13:28
>> Wish I never sold my RX-7
>
> Same here.
>
> There might be a predictor for TZE disease. Perhaps we need to advertise coaches for sale in the old VW and RX7 forums...

I'm sure it is. It's a "cult car" kind of leaning.


I prefer to call it good taste in automobiles... Very Happy


76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center... Columbia, SC.
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267200 is a reply to message #267185] Fri, 05 December 2014 18:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Kelvin Dietz wrote on Fri, 05 December 2014 14:02
http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/12/small-engine-packs-punch?et_cid=4302124&et_rid=45586987&location=top

The GMC content here is that they're developing it for lawn and garden
equipment and, wait for it, generators!

"If you look at a 3-kW military generator, it's a 270-lb gorilla that
takes five people to move around," Shkolnik says. "You can imagine if we
can make that into a 15-lb device, it's pretty revolutionary for them."

Finally something to fit in a 230 generator compartment!

Kelvin
'73 23' in Eugene, OR

I really did own and rebuild an NSU Spyder years ago.

What I do not see detailed in any of their display is the rotor sealing systems.
It is interesting, but wake me up when a production version has 8000 hours on it and it is still performing.

Uncle Felix had running Wankel motors before WWII. It took him another 20 years to get one to last a week.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267203 is a reply to message #267200] Fri, 05 December 2014 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ljdavick is currently offline  ljdavick   
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It's interesting that they refer to this as a reverse-rotary (or something). The seals are on the block and oiled from galleys, they say, using much less oil than needed with the seals on the rotor. It would be sweet for a generator, but turning 8k RPM? Actually if it turned a multiple of 120 Hz then the generator could be simplified!!

...piston engine goes boing-de-de-boing-de-de-boing, but the Mazda goes Hmmmmmmmmmm...

Larry Davick
Fremont, California
A Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
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1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267207 is a reply to message #267203] Fri, 05 December 2014 18:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
k2gkk is currently offline  k2gkk   United States
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Unless "they" have figured out a way to make the Wankel Cycle motor more fuel efficient (disregarding the seal problem), they'll be sledding on gravel! On a better note, isn't it easier to dampen noise as frequency rises? I imagine vibration would be much improved over a piston engine.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
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> Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2014 00:11:49 +0000
> From: ljdavick@comcast.net
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine
>
>
> It's interesting that they refer to this as a reverse-rotary (or something). The seals are on the block and oiled from galleys, they say, using much less oil than needed with the seals on the rotor. It would be sweet for a generator, but turning 8k RPM? Actually if it turned a multiple of 120 Hz then the generator could be simplified!!
>
> ...piston engine goes boing-de-de-boing-de-de-boing, but the Mazda goes Hmmmmmmmmmm...
>
> Larry Davick
> Fremont, California
> A Mystery Machine
> '76 (ish) Palm Beach

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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267208 is a reply to message #267207] Fri, 05 December 2014 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ljdavick is currently offline  ljdavick   
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Of course the author claims better fuel efficiency, but this makes me think they might actually have something:

"A Wankel engine, for instance, uses a long combustion chamber (like a thin crescent moon), which contributes to poor fuel economy — as the flame can’t reach trailing edges of the chamber and gets quenched by the chamber’s large surface area. The X Mini’s combustion chamber is rounder and fatter, so the flame burns over less surface area."

Excerpted from this article

Larry Davick
Fremont, California
A Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
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A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267209 is a reply to message #267200] Fri, 05 December 2014 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
k2gkk is currently offline  k2gkk   United States
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Back around 1970 or 1971, a co-worker in my Air Force unit in Wiesbaden, Germany bought an NSU RO-80 sedan. He liked it, but I rotated back to CONUS in 71 and don't know how it held up. Neat car, though.

I, on the other hand, bought a FIAT (Found In A Toilet/Fix It Again Tony) 124 Spider. Loved the car, but not the reliability (hardly any). If Fiat would redo that car and do it right, I'd probably buy another one. I have heard a rumor that Fiat might get together with Mazda and do a joint project. Hmmmm. Style and reliability together?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*


> Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2014 17:03:21 -0700
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: matt7323tze@gmail.com
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine
>
> Kelvin Dietz wrote on Fri, 05 December 2014 14:02
>> http://www.rdmag.com/news/2014/12/small-engine-packs-punch?et_cid=4302124&et_rid=45586987&location=top
>>
>> The GMC content here is that they're developing it for lawn and garden
>> equipment and, wait for it, generators!
>>
>> "If you look at a 3-kW military generator, it's a 270-lb gorilla that
>> takes five people to move around," Shkolnik says. "You can imagine if we
>> can make that into a 15-lb device, it's pretty revolutionary for them."
>>
>> Finally something to fit in a 230 generator compartment!
>>
>> Kelvin
>> '73 23' in Eugene, OR
>
> I really did own and rebuild an NSU Spyder years ago.
>
> What I do not see detailed in any of their display is the rotor sealing systems.
> It is interesting, but wake me up when a production version has 8000 hours on it and it is still performing.
>
> Uncle Felix had running Wankel motors before WWII. It took him another 20 years to get one to last a week.
>
> Matt
>
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving OE Rear Drum Brake with Applied Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit

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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267211 is a reply to message #267208] Fri, 05 December 2014 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ljdavick is currently offline  ljdavick   
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There is a YouTube of the concept - it's all computer generated, but still interesting to see < http://youtu.be/0e785YnDmq0>

Larry Davick
Fremont, California
A Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267214 is a reply to message #267185] Fri, 05 December 2014 19:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mike miller   United States
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Very interesting.

A bit of googling gives some interesting information. I searched on both "X Mini engine" and "LiquidPiston"

Just to show the size of what they are talking about:
http://images.gizmag.com/inline/liquidpiston-x-mini-2.jpg
<http://images.gizmag.com/inline/liquidpiston-x-mini-2.jpg>

from this page: <http://www.gizmag.com/liquidpiston-x-mini-engine/34747/>

Still thinking of things that could be dome with these "pocket sized" power plants.

I'm not sure what/where "LiquidPiston" comes from. I suspect it came from some other idea and became the name of the firm, but isn't directly associated with this engine.


Mike Miller -- Hillsboro, OR -- on the Black list
(#2)`78 23' Birchaven Rear Bath -- (#3)`77 23' Birchaven Side Bath
More Sidekicks than GMC's and a late model Malibu called 'Boo' http://m000035.blogspot.com
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267216 is a reply to message #267214] Fri, 05 December 2014 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ljdavick is currently offline  ljdavick   
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I wonder how many horsepower the Onan puts out at 1,800 rpm. That little rotary would have to be geared down, or the generator would have to be designed for higher rpm. I'd bet it'd be dandy on propane.

It's a good time to be alive...

Larry Davick
Fremont, California
A Mystery Machine
'76 (ish) Palm Beach
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Larry Davick
A Mystery Machine
1976(ish) Palm Beach
Fremont, Ca
Howell EFI + EBL + Electronic Dizzy
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267219 is a reply to message #267207] Fri, 05 December 2014 22:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Terry Taylor is currently offline  Terry Taylor   United States
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I have NEVER understood this concern. I have owned 4 rotary
engine Mazda's over the years (2 1974 RX-4 wagons, a 1981
1st Generation RX-7 and a 1989 second generation RX-7
convertible) and ALL of them got 25 Unless "they" have figured out a way to make the Wankel Cycle motor more fuel efficient[/color]

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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267220 is a reply to message #267208] Fri, 05 December 2014 22:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Terry Taylor is currently offline  Terry Taylor   United States
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This is why the Mazda rotary engines used 2 spark plugs per
rotor, firing 10-15 degrees apart.

On 12/5/2014 4:50 PM, Larry Davick wrote:
> as the flame can’t reach trailing edges of the chamber and gets quenched by the chamber’s large surface area.

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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267222 is a reply to message #267185] Sat, 06 December 2014 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
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A friends son had one of the new Rotary engined Mazda's (Rx8???). Really strong engine until it wasn't. In the space of 10 miles the seals failed (not the correct name but what passes for piston rings...if it had pistons). By failed, the motor went from being fine to barely being able to get off the highway in 10 miles of city driving. The motor at that point required a many thousand dollar overhaul. I loaned him my trailer and helped him pick it up at the dealer after they gave him a 4K estimate on the repair. He sold it to someone who had a good engine out of a wreck and lost about 3K on the whole deal by the time he'd paid off the loan. He's sworn off rotaries.

Apparently with the latest version, failure can come with little or no warning and no external cause.

Note, I've never owned a rotary and only ridden in one once. The above is ALL I know about them and this is anecdotal evidence although I did hear the mechanic tell my friend the 'failure can come with no warning and no cause' bit.


Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267226 is a reply to message #267209] Sat, 06 December 2014 07:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Joe Weir is currently offline  Joe Weir   United States
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k2gkk wrote on Fri, 05 December 2014 18:53
Back around 1970 or 1971, a co-worker in my Air Force unit in Wiesbaden, Germany bought an NSU RO-80 sedan. He liked it, but I rotated back to CONUS in 71 and don't know how it held up. Neat car, though.

I, on the other hand, bought a FIAT (Found In A Toilet/Fix It Again Tony) 124 Spider. Loved the car, but not the reliability (hardly any). If Fiat would redo that car and do it right, I'd probably buy another one. I have heard a rumor that Fiat might get together with Mazda and do a joint project. Hmmmm. Style and reliability together?



Mazda did it without fiat or the rotary and called it the Miata...just saying.

The 13a and 13b engined Rx 7 rotary seals would dry out if the car sat up for too long. I had a friend who had 300k on his original engined third gen turbo that was still going strong last I saw him. like an airplane or a gmc. They do not like sitting.


76 Birchaven - "Wicked Mistress" - New engine, trans, alum radiator, brakes, Sully airbags, fuel lines, seats, adult beverage center... those Coachmen guys were really thinking about us second hand owners by including that beverage center... Columbia, SC.

[Updated on: Sat, 06 December 2014 07:50]

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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267228 is a reply to message #267222] Sat, 06 December 2014 08:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bob de Kruyff   United States
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kerry pinkerton wrote on Sat, 06 December 2014 05:38
A friends son had one of the new Rotary engined Mazda's (Rx8???). Really strong engine until it wasn't. In the space of 10 miles the seals failed (not the correct name but what passes for piston rings...if it had pistons). By failed, the motor went from being fine to barely being able to get off the highway in 10 miles of city driving. The motor at that point required a many thousand dollar overhaul. I loaned him my trailer and helped him pick it up at the dealer after they gave him a 4K estimate on the repair. He sold it to someone who had a good engine out of a wreck and lost about 3K on the whole deal by the time he'd paid off the loan. He's sworn off rotaries.

Apparently with the latest version, failure can come with little or no warning and no external cause.

Note, I've never owned a rotary and only ridden in one once. The above is ALL I know about them and this is anecdotal evidence although I did hear the mechanic tell my friend the 'failure can come with no warning and no cause' bit.

Thank G.d our piston engines never fail that abruptly Smile


Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ
Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267233 is a reply to message #267228] Sat, 06 December 2014 09:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Daniel DeLuca is currently offline  Daniel DeLuca   United States
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The motor in my 2nd gen rx-7 ran strong with over 130,000 on it until I sold it. Probably helped it was not a turbo and that I did not thrash it. I could coax 22 or 23 mpg out of it, but it was a SMALL simple car. Now if the seals did blow, you could take the engine out and rebuild it on a table, it's so small and light. That's assuming it was only seals and you did not have to get the eccentric chamber machined by like the one or 2 guys in the country that knew how.

If they ever made small rotarys available for power equipment I think generators would be a good fit. Small lightweight and practically no vibrations. I'll sign up to be a beta tester.

Dan

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 6, 2014, at 9:04 AM, Bob de Kruyff wrote:
>
> kerry pinkerton wrote on Sat, 06 December 2014 05:38
>> A friends son had one of the new Rotary engined Mazda's (Rx8???). Really strong engine until it wasn't. In the space of 10 miles the seals
>> failed (not the correct name but what passes for piston rings...if it had pistons). By failed, the motor went from being fine to barely being able
>> to get off the highway in 10 miles of city driving. The motor at that point required a many thousand dollar overhaul. I loaned him my trailer and
>> helped him pick it up at the dealer after they gave him a 4K estimate on the repair. He sold it to someone who had a good engine out of a wreck and
>> lost about 3K on the whole deal by the time he'd paid off the loan. He's sworn off rotaries.
>>
>> Apparently with the latest version, failure can come with little or no warning and no external cause.
>>
>> Note, I've never owned a rotary and only ridden in one once. The above is ALL I know about them and this is anecdotal evidence although I did
>> hear the mechanic tell my friend the 'failure can come with no warning and no cause' bit.
>
> Thank G.d our piston engines never fail that abruptly :)
> --
> Bob de Kruyff
> 78 Eleganza
> Chandler, AZ
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Re: [GMCnet] Modified Rotary engine [message #267234 is a reply to message #267233] Sat, 06 December 2014 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
jhb1 is currently offline  jhb1   Canada
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Have a look at this one if they ever get some serious funding I think they have a winner

http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca


John H. Bell
77 Royale; QuadBag,Manny OneTon,Honda EV4010, FITech
Montreal Qc.
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