Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps (Summit article on choosing oil pumps)
| Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264855] |
Sun, 26 October 2014 14:38  |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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Although it is written around a big block Chevy, thought this was a good article on choosing standard, high pressure, or high volume oil pumps. From listening to Dick Patterson, I know that he recommends a high volume pump, but that is in the context of the bearing clearances he builds his engines to, which matters. I still haven't decided which way I'm going. In the continued pressure on fuel economy, a lot of the newest engines actually run variable displacement oil pumps, so they don't waste mileage pumping bypass oil into the pan. It may be out there in the too small to care about difference in our motorhomes, though.
<http://www.onallcylinders.com/2014/10/23/oil-well-choosing-proper-pressure-volume-oil-pump/>
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264863 is a reply to message #264855] |
Sun, 26 October 2014 16:14  |
Nelson
Messages: 120
Registered: August 2014
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Good article, however I'm not sure i agree with this statement "“Switching to a high volume oil pump is necessary if an engine builder is expanding the amount of oil contained in the lubrication system (adding remote filters or an oil cooler),”
Nelson Wright
Orlando FL
78 Royale rear bath
On Oct 26, 2014, at 3:38 PM, Craig Lechowicz wrote:
> Although it is written around a big block Chevy, thought this was a good article on choosing standard, high pressure, or high volume oil pumps. From
> listening to Dick Patterson, I know that he recommends a high volume pump, but that is in the context of the bearing clearances he builds his engines
> to, which matters. I still haven't decided which way I'm going. In the continued pressure on fuel economy, a lot of the newest engines actually run
> variable displacement oil pumps, so they don't waste mileage pumping bypass oil into the pan. It may be out there in the too small to care about
> difference in our motorhomes, though.
>
>
> --
> Craig Lechowicz
> '77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
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| Re: Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264870 is a reply to message #264855] |
Sun, 26 October 2014 18:53 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
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Last year when we rebuilt my 403, we clearanced the thrust bearings and smoothed a couple of areas what will increase lube on the bottom end. We did not put a high volume oil pump in. The result is that a good bit of oil goes out the bottom end and doesn't get up to the top side where the guage is. Once we got the engine running, my oil pressure was not where I wanted it. It ran about 35 at speed and 15 on hot idle. Both my engine guy (John Beavers in Americus Ga) and Dick Paterson say that this is fine. The only problem is that my Acugage beeps at me occasionally during hot idle.
While my tranny is out, I'll drop the pan and install a high volume pump. It' not necessary but I just want to see more and not listen to the alarm.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264879 is a reply to message #264855] |
Sun, 26 October 2014 22:12 |
Craig Lechowicz
Messages: 541
Registered: October 2006
Location: Waterford, MI
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Nelson,
I think I agree with you. I'm no expert, but my guess would be more coolers/filters would be more of a pressure drop issue than a volume issue.
Kerry,
Thanks, that's good input. I'll probably do similar things, and although 35 psi isn't too low, I like you, would probably be a little happier with it a little higher. That 10 psi per 1,000 rpm rule of thumb has been around at least as long as I have, and though I probably won't see 5,000 rpm, when I go to 3.70 gears, being at 4,000 or a bit more is probably going to happen at least sometimes. So, sounds like high volume oil pump it is! Part of Dick P's philosophy is to go on the loose side with clearances to get a lot of oil flow to take heat away from places where it isn't good.
Craig Lechowicz
'77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264881 is a reply to message #264879] |
Mon, 27 October 2014 03:37 |
james Ernst
Messages: 79
Registered: December 2013
Location: Lincoln, NE
Karma: -4
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Here's the thing with the Olds 455. These torgue monsters have over 13 feet
of bearing surface which is huge which means alot of flow is needed. The
big journsls and narrow bearing surface means oil has to get in and get
because of heat just like Paterson says. That being said, the flow is more
important than pressure alone.
As far as clearances go, no less than .0035 on both rod and mains. Some of
my friends that build Olds, are hsrd and fast on no less than .0040. With
those clearances you'll see some pressure drop but you'll have good oil
flow through the the bearings reducing heat and the risk of those bearings
grabbing each other and spinning.
A mileage saver and wear reducer is to use forged pistons or cast with the
low tension rings 1.5mm rings and 3mm oil rings.
Sincerely?
Jim Ernst
77 palm Beach
77 Kingsley
Columbus, Ne
On Oct 26, 2014 9:12 PM, "Craig Lechowicz" wrote:
> Nelson,
> I think I agree with you. I'm no expert, but my guess would be more
> coolers/filters would be more of a pressure drop issue than a volume issue.
>
> Kerry,
> Thanks, that's good input. I'll probably do similar things, and although
> 35 psi isn't too low, I like you, would probably be a little happier with it
> a little higher. That 10 psi per 1,000 rpm rule of thumb has been around
> at least as long as I have, and though I probably won't see 5,000 rpm, when
> I go to 3.70 gears, being at 4,000 or a bit more is probably going to
> happen at least sometimes. So, sounds like high volume oil pump it is!
> Part of
> Dick P's philosophy is to go on the loose side with clearances to get a
> lot of oil flow to take heat away from places where it isn't good.
> --
> Craig Lechowicz
> '77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Jimbalaya
No Coach yet
60 Olds 88
66 Toro
76 Toro
86 cutlass Supreme
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264882 is a reply to message #264863] |
Mon, 27 October 2014 03:38 |
james Ernst
Messages: 79
Registered: December 2013
Location: Lincoln, NE
Karma: -4
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On Oct 27, 2014 2:37 AM, "james Ernst" wrote:
> Here's the thing with the Olds 455. These torgue monsters have over 13
> feet of bearing surface which is huge which means alot of flow is needed.
> The big journsls and narrow bearing surface means oil has to get in and get
> because of heat just like Paterson says. That being said, the flow is more
> important than pressure alone.
> As far as clearances go, no less than .0035 on both rod and mains. Some of
> my friends that build Olds, are hsrd and fast on no less than .0040. With
> those clearances you'll see some pressure drop but you'll have good oil
> flow through the the bearings reducing heat and the risk of those bearings
> grabbing each other and spinning.
> A mileage saver and wear reducer is to use forged pistons or cast with the
> low tension rings 1.5mm rings and 3mm oil rings.
>
> Sincerely?
>
> Jim Ernst
> 77 palm Beach
> 77 Kingsley
> Columbus, Ne
> On Oct 26, 2014 9:12 PM, "Craig Lechowicz"
> wrote:
>
>> Nelson,
>> I think I agree with you. I'm no expert, but my guess would be more
>> coolers/filters would be more of a pressure drop issue than a volume issue.
>>
>> Kerry,
>> Thanks, that's good input. I'll probably do similar things, and although
>> 35 psi isn't too low, I like you, would probably be a little happier with it
>> a little higher. That 10 psi per 1,000 rpm rule of thumb has been around
>> at least as long as I have, and though I probably won't see 5,000 rpm, when
>> I go to 3.70 gears, being at 4,000 or a bit more is probably going to
>> happen at least sometimes. So, sounds like high volume oil pump it is!
>> Part of
>> Dick P's philosophy is to go on the loose side with clearances to get a
>> lot of oil flow to take heat away from places where it isn't good.
>> --
>> Craig Lechowicz
>> '77 Kingsley, Waterford, MI
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
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Jimbalaya
No Coach yet
60 Olds 88
66 Toro
76 Toro
86 cutlass Supreme
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264926 is a reply to message #264870] |
Mon, 27 October 2014 17:15 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Kerry,
While you've got the pan off you might want to do this:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6316-oil-pan-second-drain.html
Then there's this: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6677-oil-filter-adapter-to-oil-cooler-adapter-sealing.html
Here' some info that Bob Drewes published:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/mechanical/p50094-oil-pump-housing.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g5165-oil-filter-adapter-comparisons.html
Somewhere there is also some info floating around about matching the pump to block interface but I can't remember where it is.
This should turn R&R'ing the oil pump into a major project! ;-)
Regards,
Rob M.
Sydney, Australia
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Pinkerton
Last year when we rebuilt my 403, we clearanced the thrust bearings and smoothed a couple of areas what will increase lube on the
bottom end. We did not put a high volume oil pump in. The result is that a good bit of oil goes out the bottom end and doesn't get
up to the top side where the guage is. Once we got the engine running, my oil pressure was not where I wanted it. It ran about 35
at speed and 15 on hot idle. Both my engine guy (John Beavers in Americus Ga) and Dick Paterson say that this is fine. The only
problem is that my Acugage beeps at me occasionally during hot idle.
While my tranny is out, I'll drop the pan and install a high volume pump. It' not necessary but I just want to see more and not
listen to the alarm.
--
Kerry
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Article on standard vs. high volume oil pumps [message #264977 is a reply to message #264881] |
Tue, 28 October 2014 08:34 |
Larry
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
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james Ernst wrote on Mon, 27 October 2014 03:37Here's the thing with the Olds 455. These torgue monsters have over 13 feet
of bearing surface which is huge which means alot of flow is needed. The
big journsls and narrow bearing surface means oil has to get in and get
because of heat just like Paterson says. That being said, the flow is more
important than pressure alone.
As far as clearances go, no less than .0035 on both rod and mains. Some of
my friends that build Olds, are hsrd and fast on no less than .0040. With
those clearances you'll see some pressure drop but you'll have good oil
flow through the the bearings reducing heat and the risk of those bearings
grabbing each other and spinning.
A mileage saver and wear reducer is to use forged pistons or cast with the
low tension rings 1.5mm rings and 3mm oil rings.
Sincerely?
Jim Ernst
Wow...those are pretty wide clearance's for a street motor. IMO you must be careful of using that kind of clearance on a street motor with a high volume pump. That allows a lot of oil going through...yes...but a lot of that oil by splash then goes to the lubrication of the cylinder walls. To much oil and the oil rings have difficulty controlling the oil and the motor then burns a lot more oil. I've seen motors that burned oil, not because the rings were worn or the valve guides or seals were worn, but because there was excessive clearance at the rods putting an excessive amount of oil on the cylinders. IMO, rod and main clearance for a street motor would be .0015 to .002. This then allows the use of the modern 5w 30/5w40 oils that can slide through and still adequately lube the bottom end. The only time I have used .003 to .004 was for motors dedicated to drag racing only, then used the heavier weight racing oils. No offense intended, just my experience and opinion.
Larry 
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
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