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[GMCnet] High EGT [message #264268] Wed, 15 October 2014 06:41 Go to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Senior Member
Just ran across a possible explanation for my Cad 500's high EGT's in an
article by Roger Zerkle in Ultra-Flight magazine. He's specifically
addressing 2-stroke engine, but the principle seems applicable:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most common, and misunderstood, condition affecting EGT is engine

loading. If the engine is not loaded sufficiently, it will run high EGTs.
If the

mixture is richened, the EGTs will go up, rather than down. A lightly loaded

engine can be enriched to the point that it will barely run, and still have
high

EGTs. The explanation is found in one of Newton's laws. Simply stated, it
says

that energy cannot be created, nor destroyed.

When we burn a fuel-air mixture inside our engine, we are converting
chemical

energy into heat energy. When applying the pressure created by the
expansion of

the burning gasses inside the combustion chamber, to a movable piston, we
are

converting a portion of the heat energy to mechanical energy. The heat
energy

not used in turning the crankshaft is given off through the exhaust and the

engine cooling system. If we add all this up, it would equal the amount of
energy

present in the fuel before it was introduced into the engine.

So it would be correct to assume that, for the same amount of fuel-air
mixture

being burned in the combustion chamber, if less heat energy is being
utilized to

turn the propeller, then more heat energy will be going out the exhaust. In
other

words, a lightly loaded engine, will throw considerably more heat out of the

exhaust than the same engine, with the same throttle setting, carrying a
heavier

load. So, not only will a heavier loaded two-stroke engine have lower EGTs,
but

the engine will produce more power for the same amount of fuel burned. If a

lightly loaded engine, with a high EGT, has the mixture enriched, the extra
fuel
will go out the exhaust, increasing the EGT even more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​I have noticed that I don't get higher EGT's when climbing hills, though I
don't recall seeing lower readings. ​I've always thought that I could
re-install a 3.07 final drive with the Cad 500; now I think I SHOULD -- at
least for a trial. This also plays well with a comment Doc Frohmader made
to me about engine loading and wasted energy out the exhaust.

Ken H.
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www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264271 is a reply to message #264268] Wed, 15 October 2014 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
C Boyd is currently offline  C Boyd   United States
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Registered: April 2006
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Senior Member
Ken: since we are under the pretence that an engine is an engine, back in the day I remember climbing Jellico mt with a 335 cummins with a bigger button and stronger spring in the pump that if I kept my foot in it the pyrometer would show egt going up. It was common knowledge at the time that a hot 335 could destroy itself, but that was before aftercoolers to cool the charged air.





Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 15 October 2014 07:41
Just ran across a possible explanation for my Cad 500's high EGT's in an
article by Roger Zerkle in Ultra-Flight magazine. He's specifically
addressing 2-stroke engine, but the principle seems applicable:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most common, and misunderstood, condition affecting EGT is engine

loading. If the engine is not loaded sufficiently, it will run high EGTs.
If the

mixture is richened, the EGTs will go up, rather than down. A lightly loaded

engine can be enriched to the point that it will barely run, and still have
high

EGTs. The explanation is found in one of Newton's laws. Simply stated, it
says

that energy cannot be created, nor destroyed.

When we burn a fuel-air mixture inside our engine, we are converting
chemical

energy into heat energy. When applying the pressure created by the
expansion of

the burning gasses inside the combustion chamber, to a movable piston, we
are

converting a portion of the heat energy to mechanical energy. The heat
energy

not used in turning the crankshaft is given off through the exhaust and the

engine cooling system. If we add all this up, it would equal the amount of
energy

present in the fuel before it was introduced into the engine.

So it would be correct to assume that, for the same amount of fuel-air
mixture

being burned in the combustion chamber, if less heat energy is being
utilized to

turn the propeller, then more heat energy will be going out the exhaust. In
other

words, a lightly loaded engine, will throw considerably more heat out of the

exhaust than the same engine, with the same throttle setting, carrying a
heavier

load. So, not only will a heavier loaded two-stroke engine have lower EGTs,
but

the engine will produce more power for the same amount of fuel burned. If a

lightly loaded engine, with a high EGT, has the mixture enriched, the extra
fuel
will go out the exhaust, increasing the EGT even more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​I have noticed that I don't get higher EGT's when climbing hills, though I
don't recall seeing lower readings. ​I've always thought that I could
re-install a 3.07 final drive with the Cad 500; now I think I SHOULD -- at
least for a trial. This also plays well with a comment Doc Frohmader made
to me about engine loading and wasted energy out the exhaust.

Ken H.
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C. Boyd
76 Crestmont
East Tennessee
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264284 is a reply to message #264268] Wed, 15 October 2014 09:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
Messages: 8547
Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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Senior Member
Ken Henderson wrote on Wed, 15 October 2014 07:41
Just ran across a possible explanation for my Cad 500's high EGT's in an article by Roger Zerkle in Ultra-Flight magazine. He's specifically addressing 2-stroke engine, but the principle seems applicable: (It Is - Matt)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most common, and misunderstood, condition affecting EGT is engine loading. If the engine is not loaded sufficiently, it will run high EGTs.
If the mixture is richened, the EGTs will go up, rather than down. A lightly loaded engine can be enriched to the point that it will barely run, and still have high EGTs. The explanation is found in one of Newton's laws. Simply stated, it says that energy cannot be created, nor destroyed.

When we burn a fuel-air mixture inside our engine, we are converting chemical energy into heat energy. When applying the pressure created by the expansion of the burning gasses inside the combustion chamber, to a movable piston, we are converting a portion of the heat energy to mechanical energy. The heat energy not used in turning the crankshaft is given off through the exhaust and the engine cooling system. If we add all this up, it would equal the amount of energy present in the fuel before it was introduced into the engine.

So it would be correct to assume that, for the same amount of fuel-air mixture being burned in the combustion chamber, if less heat energy is being utilized to turn the propeller, then more heat energy will be going out the exhaust. In other words, a lightly loaded engine, will throw considerably more heat out of the exhaust than the same engine, with the same throttle setting, carrying a heavier load. So, not only will a heavier loaded two-stroke engine have lower EGTs, but the engine will produce more power for the same amount of fuel burned. If a lightly loaded engine, with a high EGT, has the mixture enriched, the extra fuel will go out the exhaust, increasing the EGT even more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

​I have noticed that I don't get higher EGT's when climbing hills, though I don't recall seeing lower readings. ​I've always thought that I could re-install a 3.07 final drive with the Cad 500; now I think I SHOULD -- at least for a trial. This also plays well with a comment Doc Frohmader made to me about engine loading and wasted energy out the exhaust.

Ken H.

Ken,

All of the above is accurate. Dyno experience is that the highest exhaust temperatures are usually at idle. There, the thing saving the engine is the low cylinder pressures.

What never occurred to me is the possibility that a Cadillac 500 pulling a 10K# coach would be lightly loaded under any conditions.

What do you see as a road load manifold pressure? The 7747 works with MAP and not Depression (vacuum).
That could be very telling.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264322 is a reply to message #264268] Wed, 15 October 2014 20:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
winter is currently offline  winter   United States
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Registered: September 2007
Location: MPLS MN
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Senior Member
Ken,

You're running efi aren't you? What does your o2 sensor show for an air fuel ratio under light load and high egt running conditions?


Jerrod Winter
1977 Palm Beach
Green Jelly Bean
Twin Cities, Minnesota
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264326 is a reply to message #264268] Wed, 15 October 2014 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
kerry pinkerton is currently offline  kerry pinkerton   United States
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Location: Harvest, Al
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Senior Member
OKayyyyyyyyy, I can understand the physics of what was said...I think.... BUT, at some
point, all this boils down to fuel economy. If running a 3.07 at 70mph means you have to work the motor 'harder' in order to get the EGT down is there a trade off in fuel use? Or does the EFI take care of that and the lower RPM means lower fuel consumption???

I guess in a perfect world, we'd use all the energy in the gas charge and get 100% combustion. Does a high EGT indicate unburned hydrocarbons firing off in the exhaust system???


Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264335 is a reply to message #264322] Wed, 15 October 2014 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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Jerrod,

The narrow band, which controls the EFI, tracks 14.7 very closely, and the
wide band, which is displayed on the WUD (EBL's What's Up Display), agrees
with it.

Ken H.

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:06 PM, jerrod winter wrote:

> Ken,
>
> You're running efi aren't you? What does your o2 sensor show for an air
> fuel ratio under light load and high egt running conditions?
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264336 is a reply to message #264326] Wed, 15 October 2014 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
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No, I don't think anyone's postulating burning in the exhaust (though that
was another topic in the 2-stroke article); rather, the idea is that more
of the thermal energy is dissipated if the piston's harder to push.

I think after Savannah I'll swap in a 3.07 and see what happens, theories
or not. :-)

Ken H.

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:49 PM, Kerry Pinkerton
wrote:

> OKayyyyyyyyy, I can understand the physics of what was said...I think....
> BUT, at some
> point, all this boils down to fuel economy. If running a 3.07 at 70mph
> means you have to work the motor 'harder' in order to get the EGT down is
> there a trade off in fuel use? Or does the EFI take care of that and the
> lower RPM means lower fuel consumption???
>
> I guess in a perfect world, we'd use all the energy in the gas charge and
> get 100% combustion. Does a high EGT indicate unburned hydrocarbons firing
> off in the exhaust system???
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264341 is a reply to message #264335] Thu, 16 October 2014 00:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kosier is currently offline  Kosier   United States
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Ken,

Don't forget that the 13.7 A/F ratio was specified to put heat into a
catalytic
convertor to keep emissions down. Don't be green, be lean!

Gary Kosier
77 PB w/500 Cad
Newark, Oh

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Henderson
Sent: Wednesday, October 15, 2014 11:34 PM
To: gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] High EGT

Jerrod,

The narrow band, which controls the EFI, tracks 14.7 very closely, and the
wide band, which is displayed on the WUD (EBL's What's Up Display), agrees
with it.

Ken H.

On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 9:06 PM, jerrod winter wrote:

> Ken,
>
> You're running efi aren't you? What does your o2 sensor show for an air
> fuel ratio under light load and high egt running conditions?
> --
>
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Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264344 is a reply to message #264268] Thu, 16 October 2014 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
g.winger is currently offline  g.winger   United States
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Ken,,,, I don't remember reading whet Doc F. told you???????
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264356 is a reply to message #264268] Thu, 16 October 2014 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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I tell the kids with the Hondas with the obnixious coffee can exhaust that it takes a lot of horsepower to make all that sound, just like it takes a lot of Watts to make their boom boom bass. Disjointed logic but a head scratcher.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264366 is a reply to message #264356] Thu, 16 October 2014 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith V is currently offline  Keith V   United States
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I run a wide band O2 EGT and just switched from 3.07 to 3.70.
I have tried runing lean, rich and various power springs.

I run 68 jets and the stock power spring. O2 is at 14.5 -15.0. Leaner and it's doggy, richer and I see no difference

If you're running 70+ the 3.07's are probably OK. But I run 55-60, the 455 loves the 3.70s I picked up 2 in hg and it just walks up the freeway hills. The 3.07's might get slightly better mpg on flat ground but as soon as there is any hill or head wind they suck. The foot goes down further and speed drops a lot more. The 3.70's are much easier and nice to drive on.

EGT's are in the 1300's - 1400's but thats after the first Y in the headers as I wanted to see the average of 2 clyinders.
EGTs climb less richer and with higher gears.



Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264392 is a reply to message #264366] Thu, 16 October 2014 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Keith,

It's interesting that you see 1300-1400*F that far down the exhaust -- and
encouraging to me. Other than that, our configurations are so different
that there's little to compare: My 23' with 500 Cad engine and EFI is
barely comparable to your 26' with 455 and carb.

Today we drove the 204 miles from Americus to Savannah (for Sunshine
Statesmen and Dixielanders rally) at a near-constant 55 mph. The terrain
eventually became almost perfectly flat so that I could authoritatively
answer Matt's question about my cruise parameters: 55 mph, 2450 rpm, 196*F
H20, 47 KPa (~17 in-Hg), EGT Left =1420*F; Right=1340*F.

I have noticed one peculiarity about the bank-to-bank EGT differential: On
acceleration, the RIGHT bank becomes the hotter one! As soon as the
acceleration is over with, the Left again registers hotter. If the
manifold didn't distribute mixture from each injector to both banks, I'd
think one injector was richer than the other -- despite the test results
from the Wizard that they're nearly identical. Maybe I'll swap their
positions before we start home, just to be sure there's nothing strange
going on.

Ken H.


On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 12:48 PM, Keith V wrote:

>
> I run a wide band O2 EGT and just switched from 3.07 to 3.70.
> I have tried runing lean, rich and various power springs.
>
> I run 68 jets and the stock power spring. O2 is at 14.5 -15.0. Leaner and
> it's doggy, richer and I see no difference
>
> If you're running 70+ the 3.07's are probably OK. But I run 55-60, the 455
> loves the 3.70s I picked up 2 in hg and it just walks up the freeway
> hills.
> The 3.07's might get slightly better mpg on flat ground but as soon as
> there is any hill or head wind they suck. The foot goes down further and
> speed
> drops a lot more. The 3.70's are much easier and nice to drive on.
>
> EGT's are in the 1300's - 1400's but thats after the first Y in the
> headers as I wanted to see the average of 2 clyinders.
> EGTs climb less richer and with higher gears.
>
>
> --
> Keith
> 69 Vette
> 29 Dodge
> 75 Royale GMC
> Mounds View. MN
> _______________________________________________
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Ken Henderson
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Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264403 is a reply to message #264392] Fri, 17 October 2014 03:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
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Ken,

I think I said this before but I monitor EGT on all cylinders independently on my airplane. I can be at cruise at say 8000 feet at WOT with the mixture set for the leanest cylinder -50 degrees on the rich side. It will stay at the same EGT on each cylinder for hours. BUT.... If I put the airplane in a minor to moderate climb or minor to moderate decent WITHOUT changing anything else (throttle or prop pitch), the leanest cylinder changes to a different one. It is also very predictable. #4 is always the leanest one in a climb while #3 is the leanest one at level cruise. If I change altitudes to say 6,000 or 10,000 the engine performance, aircraft speed, and fuel economy will change, but the leanest cylinder will remain the same. ie. #3 at level cruise. Also the front 2 cylinders are always about 175 degrees colder EGT.

I do not understand why this happens. I am just reporting what it does. Economy lean at cruise for me is around 1500 to 1525. I usually richen the mixture to between 1450 to 1475.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264405 is a reply to message #264403] Fri, 17 October 2014 06:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
Messages: 8726
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Location: Americus, GA
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Ken,

That's interesting. Must have something to do with the manifold, wouldn't
you guess?

Since I don't follow general aviation (nor any other very much any more),
I'm not up on it, but I thought throttle setting philosophy changed a few
years back. Do you not believe in the "lean of max EGT" throttle setting?

Ken "with 25 other GMC's at Savannah South KOA" H.

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 4:13 AM, Ken Burton wrote:

> Ken,
>
> I think I said this before but I monitor EGT on all cylinders
> independently on my airplane. I can be at cruise at say 8000 feet at WOT
> with the
> mixture set for the leanest cylinder -50 degrees on the rich side. It
> will stay at the same EGT on each cylinder for hours. BUT.... If I put the
> airplane in a minor to moderate climb or minor to moderate decent WITHOUT
> changing anything else (throttle or prop pitch), the leanest cylinder
> changes to a different one. It is also very predictable. #4 is always
> the leanest one in a climb while #3 is the leanest one at level cruise. If
> I
> change altitudes to say 6,000 or 10,000 the engine performance, aircraft
> speed, and fuel economy will change, but the leanest cylinder will remain
> the
> same. ie. #3 at level cruise. Also the front 2 cylinders are always
> about 175 degrees colder EGT.
>
> I do not understand why this happens. I am just reporting what it does.
> Economy lean at cruise for me is around 1500 to 1525. I usually richen
> the
> mixture to between 1450 to 1475.
> --
>
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Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264411 is a reply to message #264392] Fri, 17 October 2014 09:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 16 October 2014 21:43
<snip>
I have noticed one peculiarity about the bank-to-bank EGT differential: On acceleration, the RIGHT bank becomes the hotter one! As soon as the acceleration is over with, the Left again registers hotter. If the manifold didn't distribute mixture from each injector to both banks, I'd think one injector was richer than the other -- despite the test results from the Wizard that they're nearly identical. Maybe I'll swap their positions before we start home, just to be sure there's nothing strange
going on.

Ken H.

Ken Burton wrote on Fri, 17 October 2014 04:13
Ken,

I think I said this before but I monitor EGT on all cylinders independently on my airplane. I can be at cruise at say 8000 feet at WOT with the mixture set for the leanest cylinder -50 degrees on the rich side. It will stay at the same EGT on each cylinder for hours. BUT.... If I put the airplane in a minor to moderate climb or minor to moderate decent WITHOUT changing anything else (throttle or prop pitch), the leanest cylinder changes to a different one. It is also very predictable. #4 is always the leanest one in a climb while #3 is the leanest one at level cruise. If I change altitudes to say 6,000 or 10,000 the engine performance, aircraft speed, and fuel economy will change, but the leanest cylinder will remain the same. ie. #3 at level cruise. Also the front 2 cylinders are always about 175 degrees colder EGT.

I do not understand why this happens. I am just reporting what it does. Economy lean at cruise for me is around 1500 to 1525. I usually richen the mixture to between 1450 to 1475.

Ken B.

What you two are obviously discussing is something that is recognized but little understood beyond a few of us in engine development.

It is Charge Quality and Pressure distribution. And, there is little you can do about once the casting are cool.

The problem is simply that if you look at the charge quality (A/F) and absolute pressure just before the intake valve closes, you will find that these both vary from one cylinder to the next. Not only does this change with crankshaft speed at WOT, but it varies even more at less than WOT because of the way the throttle plate directs the flow into the intake runners.

Then, here is one final irony... The intake that best distributes charge quality may also be terrible at distributing charge pressure.

So, I think KenH is probably as close as he can get. It would be fun to take the coach out on some flat ground and play, but again, unless you want to modify casting you are stuck with what you have.

But, I do like KenH's EGTs much better now.

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264422 is a reply to message #264411] Fri, 17 October 2014 11:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
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Ken and all, I am going to put my 2 cents worth into the mix on this
discussion. My background in this arena has been experience based in Go
cart and motorcycle racing. Both 4 cycle and 2 cycle. Before anyone says
"what's that got to do with a GMC, anyhow?", I will try to explain. Ken
brought up the subject of exhaust gas temperature probes, something I have
experience with. We used a thermocouple type sensor that resembled a spark
plug washer with a male spade connector on it. Special sensor conductors
led to a meter in the center of the steering wheel that read in Degrees
Farenheit or Celcius. Remote carb adjusting screws also were fitted that
were accessible by the driver. These engines were not lawn mower engines
converted for use by karters, but were actual purpose built engines for the
application. Padilla, Yamaha, Komet, were three that I had the most
experience with. Komet engines were made in Austria or Germany. 100 cubic
centimeters displacement, reed valve, 2 cycle, electronic ignition, fuel
injected. Made upwards of 20 horsepower at very high rpm. Hand Grenade
state of tune. Capable of propelling a 450 pound kart and rider combination
over 100 miles per hour. Real racing machines in every aspect. The reason
for the thermocouple was to extract every ounce of torque and horsepower
from the engines under variable track conditions. On tracks with long
straight stretches and wide sweeping corners, you had to take a cautious
approach to leaning the injectors too far. Too lean, and you turn a highly
stressed precision engine into a melted down hunk of very expensive junk. I
know, been there, done that, got the T shirt & everything. On short coupled
tight twisty courses, you could go quite lean because the throttle was not
held wide open for as long a period of time. We tried probes in the exhaust
pipes, but there are so many variables with that method that it is hard to
determine just what is going on. On 2 cycle engines, a good deal of the
energy created from compressing a homogenos mixture of fuel and air in a
tight combustion chamber, and igniting it with a spark, goes right out the
exhaust port(s) into a funnel shaped expansion cone, then into a divergent
cone with a narrow outlet pipe. Called a tuned pipe or expansion chamber,
kinda serves the same purpose as headers in a 4 cycle. The expansion
chamber is filled with exhaust gasses, and sound waves from the exhaust
pulses travel through the gas mixture at more or less the speed of sound.
In the expansion cone, they get larger and further apart, losing some
energy, then in the divergent cone, they become closer together and smaller
until they reflect backwards through the gas mixture until they form a
pressure wall solid enough to force escaping intake mixtures back into the
upper cylinder chamber. Kind of a supercharger. Makes almost double the
horsepower in a very narrow rpm band. More to it than that, but. About the
time you think you have all this tuning stuff figured out, then the air
density or temperature changes enough to smoke another engine. In my
experience, THERE IS NO SIMPLE SOLUTION TO HUMANS TUNING COMBUSTION EVENTS.
WE ARE SIMPLY TOO SLOW TO RECOGNIZE AND REACT IN TIME TO ALTER THE COURSE
OF EVENTS. Just the way I see it,
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Matt Colie wrote:

> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 16 October 2014 21:43
>>
>> I have noticed one peculiarity about the bank-to-bank EGT differential:
> On acceleration, the RIGHT bank becomes the hotter one! As soon as the
>> acceleration is over with, the Left again registers hotter. If the
> manifold didn't distribute mixture from each injector to both banks, I'd
> think
>> one injector was richer than the other -- despite the test results from
> the Wizard that they're nearly identical. Maybe I'll swap their positions
>> before we start home, just to be sure there's nothing strange
>> going on.
>>
>> Ken H.
>
> Ken Burton wrote on Fri, 17 October 2014 04:13
>> Ken,
>>
>> I think I said this before but I monitor EGT on all cylinders
> independently on my airplane. I can be at cruise at say 8000 feet at WOT
> with the
>> mixture set for the leanest cylinder -50 degrees on the rich side. It
> will stay at the same EGT on each cylinder for hours. BUT.... If I put the
>> airplane in a minor to moderate climb or minor to moderate decent
> WITHOUT changing anything else (throttle or prop pitch), the leanest
> cylinder
>> changes to a different one. It is also very predictable. #4 is always
> the leanest one in a climb while #3 is the leanest one at level cruise. If
>> I change altitudes to say 6,000 or 10,000 the engine performance,
> aircraft speed, and fuel economy will change, but the leanest cylinder will
> remain
>> the same. ie. #3 at level cruise. Also the front 2 cylinders are
> always about 175 degrees colder EGT.
>>
>> I do not understand why this happens. I am just reporting what it
> does. Economy lean at cruise for me is around 1500 to 1525. I usually
> richen
>> the mixture to between 1450 to 1475.
>>
>> Ken B.
>
> What you two are obviously discussing is something that is recognized but
> little understood beyond a few of us in engine development.
>
> It is Charge Quality and Pressure distribution. And, there is little you
> can do about once the casting are cool.
>
> The problem is simply that if you look at the charge quality (A/F) and
> absolute pressure just before the intake valve closes, you will find that
> these
> both vary from one cylinder to the next. Not only does this change with
> crankshaft speed at WOT, but it varies even more at less than WOT because of
> the way the throttle plate directs the flow into the intake runners.
>
> Then, here is one final irony... The intake that best distributes charge
> quality may also be terrible at distributing charge pressure.
>
> So, I think KenH is probably as close as he can get. It would be fun to
> take the coach out on some flat ground and play, but again, unless you want
> to modify casting you are stuck with what you have.
>
> But, I do like KenH's EGTs much better now.
>
> Matt
> --
> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving the Applied Rear Brake Control Arms
> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264426 is a reply to message #264422] Fri, 17 October 2014 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
James Hupy is currently offline  James Hupy   United States
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
Senior Member
As an aside, there is a company that offers a lot of what Ken is talking
about fairly cheaply. auberins.com should get you there.
Jim Hupy
Salem, OR
78 GMC Royale 403

On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 9:52 AM, James Hupy wrote:

> Ken and all, I am going to put my 2 cents worth into the mix on this
> discussion. My background in this arena has been experience based in Go
> cart and motorcycle racing. Both 4 cycle and 2 cycle. Before anyone says
> "what's that got to do with a GMC, anyhow?", I will try to explain. Ken
> brought up the subject of exhaust gas temperature probes, something I have
> experience with. We used a thermocouple type sensor that resembled a spark
> plug washer with a male spade connector on it. Special sensor conductors
> led to a meter in the center of the steering wheel that read in Degrees
> Farenheit or Celcius. Remote carb adjusting screws also were fitted that
> were accessible by the driver. These engines were not lawn mower engines
> converted for use by karters, but were actual purpose built engines for the
> application. Padilla, Yamaha, Komet, were three that I had the most
> experience with. Komet engines were made in Austria or Germany. 100 cubic
> centimeters displacement, reed valve, 2 cycle, electronic ignition, fuel
> injected. Made upwards of 20 horsepower at very high rpm. Hand Grenade
> state of tune. Capable of propelling a 450 pound kart and rider combination
> over 100 miles per hour. Real racing machines in every aspect. The reason
> for the thermocouple was to extract every ounce of torque and horsepower
> from the engines under variable track conditions. On tracks with long
> straight stretches and wide sweeping corners, you had to take a cautious
> approach to leaning the injectors too far. Too lean, and you turn a highly
> stressed precision engine into a melted down hunk of very expensive junk. I
> know, been there, done that, got the T shirt & everything. On short coupled
> tight twisty courses, you could go quite lean because the throttle was not
> held wide open for as long a period of time. We tried probes in the exhaust
> pipes, but there are so many variables with that method that it is hard to
> determine just what is going on. On 2 cycle engines, a good deal of the
> energy created from compressing a homogenos mixture of fuel and air in a
> tight combustion chamber, and igniting it with a spark, goes right out the
> exhaust port(s) into a funnel shaped expansion cone, then into a divergent
> cone with a narrow outlet pipe. Called a tuned pipe or expansion chamber,
> kinda serves the same purpose as headers in a 4 cycle. The expansion
> chamber is filled with exhaust gasses, and sound waves from the exhaust
> pulses travel through the gas mixture at more or less the speed of sound.
> In the expansion cone, they get larger and further apart, losing some
> energy, then in the divergent cone, they become closer together and smaller
> until they reflect backwards through the gas mixture until they form a
> pressure wall solid enough to force escaping intake mixtures back into the
> upper cylinder chamber. Kind of a supercharger. Makes almost double the
> horsepower in a very narrow rpm band. More to it than that, but. About the
> time you think you have all this tuning stuff figured out, then the air
> density or temperature changes enough to smoke another engine. In my
> experience, THERE IS NO SIMPLE SOLUTION TO HUMANS TUNING COMBUSTION EVENTS.
> WE ARE SIMPLY TOO SLOW TO RECOGNIZE AND REACT IN TIME TO ALTER THE COURSE
> OF EVENTS. Just the way I see it,
> Jim Hupy
> Salem, OR
> 78 GMC Royale 403
>
> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 7:06 AM, Matt Colie wrote:
>
>> Ken Henderson wrote on Thu, 16 October 2014 21:43
>>>
>>> I have noticed one peculiarity about the bank-to-bank EGT
>> differential: On acceleration, the RIGHT bank becomes the hotter one! As
>> soon as the
>>> acceleration is over with, the Left again registers hotter. If the
>> manifold didn't distribute mixture from each injector to both banks, I'd
>> think
>>> one injector was richer than the other -- despite the test results from
>> the Wizard that they're nearly identical. Maybe I'll swap their positions
>>> before we start home, just to be sure there's nothing strange
>>> going on.
>>>
>>> Ken H.
>>
>> Ken Burton wrote on Fri, 17 October 2014 04:13
>>> Ken,
>>>
>>> I think I said this before but I monitor EGT on all cylinders
>> independently on my airplane. I can be at cruise at say 8000 feet at WOT
>> with the
>>> mixture set for the leanest cylinder -50 degrees on the rich side. It
>> will stay at the same EGT on each cylinder for hours. BUT.... If I put the
>>> airplane in a minor to moderate climb or minor to moderate decent
>> WITHOUT changing anything else (throttle or prop pitch), the leanest
>> cylinder
>>> changes to a different one. It is also very predictable. #4 is always
>> the leanest one in a climb while #3 is the leanest one at level cruise. If
>>> I change altitudes to say 6,000 or 10,000 the engine performance,
>> aircraft speed, and fuel economy will change, but the leanest cylinder will
>> remain
>>> the same. ie. #3 at level cruise. Also the front 2 cylinders are
>> always about 175 degrees colder EGT.
>>>
>>> I do not understand why this happens. I am just reporting what it
>> does. Economy lean at cruise for me is around 1500 to 1525. I usually
>> richen
>>> the mixture to between 1450 to 1475.
>>>
>>> Ken B.
>>
>> What you two are obviously discussing is something that is recognized but
>> little understood beyond a few of us in engine development.
>>
>> It is Charge Quality and Pressure distribution. And, there is little you
>> can do about once the casting are cool.
>>
>> The problem is simply that if you look at the charge quality (A/F) and
>> absolute pressure just before the intake valve closes, you will find that
>> these
>> both vary from one cylinder to the next. Not only does this change with
>> crankshaft speed at WOT, but it varies even more at less than WOT because of
>> the way the throttle plate directs the flow into the intake runners.
>>
>> Then, here is one final irony... The intake that best distributes charge
>> quality may also be terrible at distributing charge pressure.
>>
>> So, I think KenH is probably as close as he can get. It would be fun to
>> take the coach out on some flat ground and play, but again, unless you want
>> to modify casting you are stuck with what you have.
>>
>> But, I do like KenH's EGTs much better now.
>>
>> Matt
>> --
>> Matt & Mary Colie - Members GMCMI, GMCES
>> '73 Glacier 23 - Still Loving the Applied Rear Brake Control Arms
>> SE Michigan - Twixt A2 and Detroit
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
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Re: [GMCnet] High EGT [message #264432 is a reply to message #264405] Fri, 17 October 2014 15:32 Go to previous message
Ken Burton is currently offline  Ken Burton   United States
Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana
Karma: 10
Senior Member
Ken Henderson wrote on Fri, 17 October 2014 06:41
Ken,

That's interesting. Must have something to do with the manifold, wouldn't
you guess?

Since I don't follow general aviation (nor any other very much any more),
I'm not up on it, but I thought throttle setting philosophy changed a few
years back. Do you not believe in the "lean of max EGT" throttle setting?


I do not go lean of peak because the marginal gain vs. the potential loss of a cylinder to detonation is not worth it. I stay 50 to 75 degrees rich of peak.

I'm thinking that the front to rear difference in EGT is caused by cylinder cooling. The front cylinders run cooler cylinder head temperatures (and cooler EGTs) than the rear because they are in the direct air blast.

I am thinking that higher EGT is associated with hotter cylinder temperatures. The switching back and forth of the leanest cylinder in the rear is also probably due to cooling air flow changes. They are all fed by one common manifold and carb so I would think manifold distribution of intake air would not change. Cylinder cooling on the other hand could easily change but aircraft pitch and propeller RPM.

One thing I did not mention on the air cooling is that there is an oil cooler mounted on the rear baffling of the leanest (hottest EGT) cylinder. That cooler does take some unknown amount of the cooling air that would normally go through #3 cylinder. I believe this is why #3 is always leanest at cruise.

All of this is just guessing on my part.


Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana
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