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[GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263547] Mon, 06 October 2014 09:53 Go to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
Senior Member
Despite all the discussions about the importance of properly centering
the GMC's steering box, I suspect there are those we really haven't
convinced. The email below, sent to Alex Ferrara, who's aligned about
40 boxes in the past year or so, may help convince everyone. I
forward it with the permission of those directly involved:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alex---thanks for taking the time to check out and adjust the steering
on my 76 coach –and also my brother Bob’s 75 (the one used in your
seminar).

We drove 900 miles home, on a variety of road surfaces and weather
conditions--- including heavy rains with lots of water in the truck
grooves -high cross winds -- badly rutted asphalt - old and new
asphalt –---concrete with lap joints every 50 feet etc. and roads with
a level crown and uneven edges/shoulder,- in all--- a very typical
test bed for the gmc. The coach used to 'dive' for the shoulder as it
dipped, but not any more!!

As a bit of trivia history-- I worked for GM until 1975 and was
familiar with our GMC offering-- but never drove one ---just lusted
for their style and appeal –I bought my coach in 1984 in Louisiana
with 54000 miles on the od.--and driving it home the 1400 miles - it
was a physical torture test- a real work out---I questioned my
rational of buying such a loose goose. My shoulders and arms ached all
day and I white knuckled the entire trip. I replaced all of the
steering components other than the box (and it was center adjusted at
a GMC shop in MI.)----thereafter I had alignments done twice at 2
different facilities who had racks large enough to accept the whole
coach. The steering improved and was--- I thought now acceptable(in
comparison to how it was before ).

My usual drive was with my right hand firmly gripping the wheel
--while occasionally resting my arm in my lap –I have a fold down arm
rest on the right side of the seat and would alternate using it in the
fold up or down position to rest my arm –for a change of arm/shoulder
position -switching to my left hand for the major work while relaxing
-the right one –always clutching tight with both hands when trucks
passed either direction -or the road surface got wonky.

Of interest since I don’t drive the gmc frequently –.-on each trip I
found after the first day -my wrists ached and I was conscious of a
stiff right elbow-and neck muscles.

The 900 mile trip home from Chippewa Falls was a real eye
opener-----right hand resting in lap -light touch on the wheel ---I
never once put the right arm rest down –to rest my arm -- drove often
with just the left hand in my lap-no wrist and shoulder issues – much
less woosh pushing from big trucks passing -with the steering now far
more ‘predictable’ --much like your daily driver.-

In both coaches our opinion was--- amazing ---first time in 30 years
without 110% concentration full time on just steering the thing – a
pleasant relaxed drive just cruising along looking at the fall scenery
.

If I had one caution for those folks-whom you correct their steering
---be aware that now it is quite possible for you to ‘fall asleep at
the wheel’.

Thanks again Alex ---you are my hero , a saint . -----regards (Dick
and Bob) Paterson
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken H.
Americus, GA
'76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
www.gmcwipersetc.com
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263570 is a reply to message #263547] Mon, 06 October 2014 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PigPen4x4 is currently offline  PigPen4x4   United States
Messages: 61
Registered: March 2014
Location: Chattanooga Tn
Karma: 1
Member
I'm convinced, as I have read these posts and keep thinking
"That's ME"!
Since I just can't make the rally's,
can anyone tell me how to check mine and adjust if I find it is needed?
Also, did these units come from the factory that way or did somebody
work on the steering?
Thanks a million!!
Christopher


Christopher Brewer Chattanooga Tn Well, no longer an owner.
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263576 is a reply to message #263570] Mon, 06 October 2014 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
midlf is currently offline  midlf   United States
Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)
Karma: 1
Senior Member
PigPen4x4 wrote on Mon, 06 October 2014 11:46
I'm convinced, as I have read these posts and keep thinking
"That's ME"!
Since I just can't make the rally's,
can anyone tell me how to check mine and adjust if I find it is needed?
Also, did these units come from the factory that way or did somebody
work on the steering?
Thanks a million!!
Christopher


I was there and saw the demo. After the drive home in the rain with the wind, I'm trying desperately to remember what I saw without missing any steps.


Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263617 is a reply to message #263576] Mon, 06 October 2014 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bruce Hart is currently offline  Bruce Hart   United States
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
Senior Member
Maybe rob will chime in. Didn't rob make a pictorial on the steering box
and the relationship of he shaft to the mounting bolts (CRS)?

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Steve Southworth
wrote:

> PigPen4x4 wrote on Mon, 06 October 2014 11:46
>> I'm convinced, as I have read these posts and keep thinking
>> "That's ME"!
>> Since I just can't make the rally's,
>> can anyone tell me how to check mine and adjust if I find it is needed?
>> Also, did these units come from the factory that way or did somebody
>> work on the steering?
>> Thanks a million!!
>> Christopher
>
>
> I was there and saw the demo. After the drive home in the rain with the
> wind, I'm trying desperately to remember what I saw without missing any
> steps.
> --
> Steve Southworth
> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
> Palmyra WI
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>



--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart 1976 Palm Beach 1977 28' Kingsley La Grange, Wyoming
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263621 is a reply to message #263617] Mon, 06 October 2014 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bruce Hart is currently offline  Bruce Hart   United States
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
Senior Member
I found this Christopher:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/steering-box/p54238-steering-box-adjustment.html

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 7:08 PM, Bruce Hart wrote:

> Maybe rob will chime in. Didn't rob make a pictorial on the steering box
> and the relationship of he shaft to the mounting bolts (CRS)?
>
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Steve Southworth
> wrote:
>
>> PigPen4x4 wrote on Mon, 06 October 2014 11:46
>>> I'm convinced, as I have read these posts and keep thinking
>>> "That's ME"!
>>> Since I just can't make the rally's,
>>> can anyone tell me how to check mine and adjust if I find it is needed?
>>> Also, did these units come from the factory that way or did somebody
>>> work on the steering?
>>> Thanks a million!!
>>> Christopher
>>
>>
>> I was there and saw the demo. After the drive home in the rain with the
>> wind, I'm trying desperately to remember what I saw without missing any
>> steps.
>> --
>> Steve Southworth
>> 1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
>> 1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
>> Palmyra WI
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Hart
> 1976 Palm Beach
> Milliken, Co
> GMC=Got More Class
>
>


--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart 1976 Palm Beach 1977 28' Kingsley La Grange, Wyoming
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263650 is a reply to message #263617] Tue, 07 October 2014 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
USAussie is currently offline  USAussie   United States
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
Senior Member
G'day,

I started putting together the pictorial in Australia working with Peter Bailey because he has a GMC that has not been converted to
RHD. We were not finished when I left for the USA June 3rd. It is on my list of TTD and HOPEFULLY I can put a series of step by step
photos together before I leave the USA in a couple of weeks. If not I guess I'll have to go visit Peter in Adelaide to do it! ;-)

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428


-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Hart

Maybe rob will chime in. Didn't rob make a pictorial on the steering box and the relationship of he shaft to the mounting bolts
(CRS)?


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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263651 is a reply to message #263547] Tue, 07 October 2014 01:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bruce Hart is currently offline  Bruce Hart   United States
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
Senior Member
Ken,
I can't remember the details, but Alex redid a coach at Montgomery where
some component had worn through and had put the coaches owners in serious
trouble if it wasn't corrected.
Undoubtedly saved the owners life.

On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 8:53 AM, Ken Henderson
wrote:

> Despite all the discussions about the importance of properly centering
> the GMC's steering box, I suspect there are those we really haven't
> convinced. The email below, sent to Alex Ferrara, who's aligned about
> 40 boxes in the past year or so, may help convince everyone. I
> forward it with the permission of those directly involved:
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Alex---thanks for taking the time to check out and adjust the steering
> on my 76 coach -and also my brother Bob's 75 (the one used in your
> seminar).
>
> We drove 900 miles home, on a variety of road surfaces and weather
> conditions--- including heavy rains with lots of water in the truck
> grooves -high cross winds -- badly rutted asphalt - old and new
> asphalt ----concrete with lap joints every 50 feet etc. and roads with
> a level crown and uneven edges/shoulder,- in all--- a very typical
> test bed for the gmc. The coach used to 'dive' for the shoulder as it
> dipped, but not any more!!
>
> As a bit of trivia history-- I worked for GM until 1975 and was
> familiar with our GMC offering-- but never drove one ---just lusted
> for their style and appeal -I bought my coach in 1984 in Louisiana
> with 54000 miles on the od.--and driving it home the 1400 miles - it
> was a physical torture test- a real work out---I questioned my
> rational of buying such a loose goose. My shoulders and arms ached all
> day and I white knuckled the entire trip. I replaced all of the
> steering components other than the box (and it was center adjusted at
> a GMC shop in MI.)----thereafter I had alignments done twice at 2
> different facilities who had racks large enough to accept the whole
> coach. The steering improved and was--- I thought now acceptable(in
> comparison to how it was before ).
>
> My usual drive was with my right hand firmly gripping the wheel
> --while occasionally resting my arm in my lap -I have a fold down arm
> rest on the right side of the seat and would alternate using it in the
> fold up or down position to rest my arm -for a change of arm/shoulder
> position -switching to my left hand for the major work while relaxing
> -the right one -always clutching tight with both hands when trucks
> passed either direction -or the road surface got wonky.
>
> Of interest since I don't drive the gmc frequently -.-on each trip I
> found after the first day -my wrists ached and I was conscious of a
> stiff right elbow-and neck muscles.
>
> The 900 mile trip home from Chippewa Falls was a real eye
> opener-----right hand resting in lap -light touch on the wheel ---I
> never once put the right arm rest down -to rest my arm -- drove often
> with just the left hand in my lap-no wrist and shoulder issues - much
> less woosh pushing from big trucks passing -with the steering now far
> more 'predictable' --much like your daily driver.-
>
> In both coaches our opinion was--- amazing ---first time in 30 years
> without 110% concentration full time on just steering the thing - a
> pleasant relaxed drive just cruising along looking at the fall scenery
> .
>
> If I had one caution for those folks-whom you correct their steering
> ---be aware that now it is quite possible for you to 'fall asleep at
> the wheel'.
>
> Thanks again Alex ---you are my hero , a saint . -----regards (Dick
> and Bob) Paterson
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ken H.
> Americus, GA
> '76 X-Birchaven w/Cad500/Howell EFI & EBL,
> Manny Brakes & 1-Ton, etc., etc.
> www.gmcwipersetc.com
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>



--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart 1976 Palm Beach 1977 28' Kingsley La Grange, Wyoming
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263670 is a reply to message #263547] Tue, 07 October 2014 07:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
skip2 is currently offline  skip2   United States
Messages: 544
Registered: September 2011
Location: Winter Haven,FL (center o...
Karma: 3
Senior Member
All this discussion on steering shafts being out of phase has got me wondering is there a correct alignment shown anywhere for all of the components and their relationship to each other in the steering shaft, the u-joint, slider shafts, the cv, and that little monster on top that can go 6 different ways. I remember making sure that 2 piece driveshaft u-joints were syncronized or there would be one heck of a vibration. Can't actually find a definitive photo or description with all the components. I know it's not high speed but with these beast, as we all know, the littlest thing can make the biggest difference.
Skip Hartline


74 Canyon Lands, FiTech, 3.7 FD LSD, Manny Tranny, Springfield Distributor, 2001 Chevy Tracker Ragtop Towd
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263673 is a reply to message #263547] Tue, 07 October 2014 07:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Larry is currently offline  Larry   United States
Messages: 2875
Registered: January 2004
Location: Menomonie, WI
Karma: 10
Senior Member
We will be in Florida this winter. I hope to look up Alex F while there. Maybe the two of us can put together a start to finish photo journal with dialog that we can post on the GMCphoto site and other places that GMC'rs frequent. How about it Alex?

Larry Smile
78 Royale w/500 Caddy
Menomonie, WI.
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263677 is a reply to message #263621] Tue, 07 October 2014 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr ERFisher is currently offline  Mr ERFisher   United States
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Registered: August 2005
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Senior Member
On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 6:16 PM, Bruce Hart wrote:

> I found this Christopher:
>
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/steering-box/p54238-steering-box-adjustment.html
>
> ​ THIS IS GOOD NEWS
>
i have been waiting for 6 months to list his video
he promised.

where is the link to the video?
--
Gene Fisher -- 74-23,77PB/ore/ca
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
http://gmcmotorhome.info/
Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263683 is a reply to message #263670] Tue, 07 October 2014 09:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith V is currently offline  Keith V   United States
Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN
Karma: 0
Senior Member
skip2 wrote on Tue, 07 October 2014 07:29
All this discussion on steering shafts being out of phase has got me wondering is there a correct alignment shown anywhere for all of the components and their relationship to each other in the steering shaft, the u-joint, slider shafts, the cv, and that little monster on top that can go 6 different ways. I remember making sure that 2 piece driveshaft u-joints were syncronized or there would be one heck of a vibration. Can't actually find a definitive photo or description with all the components. I know it's not high speed but with these beast, as we all know, the littlest thing can make the biggest difference.
Skip Hartline


yes there is a 'Correct' Phase alignment of all the steering components, but not for vibrations sake. You start at the top, the steering wheel, and make sure that is centered. Alex uses a wooden dowel lashed to the steering wheel and wedged against the windshield and side window so it would NOT move.
Then from there go to the steering box. Make sure the flat on the input shaft is parallel to the bolts on the cover. IF that is correct nothing else in that line matters really. If not then there are about a million combinations to get it aligned properly. USUALLY just a re-centering on the steering box input splines is enough but you may have to index the slip joint ot the CV joint if things are way out.
once all that is done using an adjustable drag link allows you to center the wheels so the coach actually goes straight ahead when the wheel is straight ahead

Having the steering wheel indexed exactly to the steering box allows you to know when everything is lined up right. If something moves, you know where 'right' is.


Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263691 is a reply to message #263683] Tue, 07 October 2014 11:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Matt Colie is currently offline  Matt Colie   United States
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Registered: March 2007
Location: S.E. Michigan
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Senior Member
Keith V wrote on Tue, 07 October 2014 10:45
Make sure the flat on the input shaft is parallel to the bolts on the cover. IF that is correct nothing else in that line matters really. If not then there are about a million combinations to get it aligned properly. USUALLY just a re-centering on the steering box input splines is enough but you may have to index the slip joint or the CV joint if things are way out.
Once all that is done using an adjustable drag link allows you to center the wheels so the coach actually goes straight ahead when the wheel is straight ahead.

Having the steering wheel indexed exactly to the steering box allows you to know when everything is lined up right. If something moves, you know where 'right' is.

Keith is exaggerating - somewhat.
There is a chisel mark on the top of the steering shaft that should be straight ahead for the steering wheel.
The six hole flange for the CV joint only really goes on the steering wheel shaft one way due to the bolt clearance.
The same is yoke below at the steering box.
So, if you get those done correctly (Mine were Not), you are left with the six bolt flange and the four grove slip joint as variables.
That should only be a total of 24 permutations. The problem is that each try takes time.
In My case, just about everything was wrong - from the steering wheel on down.

I actually took me a day and an half of serious effort to get it straightened out. But it was very much worth the effort.
(You should use the drag link to square the Idler and Relay only. Then use the tie rods for the final trim to straight and to set toe-in.)

Matt


Matt & Mary Colie - Chaumière -'73 Glacier 23 - Members GMCMI, GMCGL, GMCES
Electronically Controlled Quiet Engine Cooling Fan with OE Rear Drum Brakes with Applied Control Arms
SE Michigan - Near DTW - Twixt A2 and Detroit
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263695 is a reply to message #263547] Tue, 07 October 2014 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JohnL455 is currently offline  JohnL455   United States
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Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL
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Senior Member
I guess the thing to do is build a GO NO GO fixture for off the coach confirmation of the intermediate shaft. It's hard to confirm with a photo as it's an odd angle when correct due to the lower bolt not being square or 90 to the box input shaft. Matt brings up the important fact to start indoors at the wheel and column scribe marks. In short you can get it "right" with that wrong but the turn signals won't csncel corretly and you won't have the real correct permutation on the intermediate

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263700 is a reply to message #263695] Tue, 07 October 2014 14:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Keith V is currently offline  Keith V   United States
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Location: Mounds View,MN
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Senior Member
Me exaggerate? Never! Smile

Good point on the drag link being centered, I'm sure thats more important than expected.


Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263714 is a reply to message #263651] Tue, 07 October 2014 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ken Henderson is currently offline  Ken Henderson   United States
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Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA
Karma: 9
Senior Member
Bruce,

I asked Alex for the details; here's his scarey reply:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The steering slip shaft was frozen and must have been that way for a
long time as the coach went over the bumps the slip shaft could not
slide thus putting pressure on the steering gear input shaft -
eventually worked itself loose, broke the splines and wore the bolt
out. The bolt eventually became so small that is slipped out of the
slot up onto the spline area and kept breaking the splines until I
caught it with only 1/16 of an inch left before the bolt would be
totally off. I still have that box and I occasionally show it to
people.
Alex
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ken H.

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Bruce Hart wrote:
> Ken,
> I can't remember the details, but Alex redid a coach at Montgomery where
> some component had worn through and had put the coaches owners in serious
> trouble if it wasn't corrected.
> Undoubtedly saved the owners life.
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263724 is a reply to message #263714] Tue, 07 October 2014 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bruce Hart is currently offline  Bruce Hart   United States
Messages: 1501
Registered: October 2011
Location: La Grange, Wyoming
Karma: 5
Senior Member
Thanks Ken, how fortunate we are to have Alex check our coaches.

On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Ken Henderson
wrote:

> Bruce,
>
> I asked Alex for the details; here's his scarey reply:
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The steering slip shaft was frozen and must have been that way for a
> long time as the coach went over the bumps the slip shaft could not
> slide thus putting pressure on the steering gear input shaft -
> eventually worked itself loose, broke the splines and wore the bolt
> out. The bolt eventually became so small that is slipped out of the
> slot up onto the spline area and kept breaking the splines until I
> caught it with only 1/16 of an inch left before the bolt would be
> totally off. I still have that box and I occasionally show it to
> people.
> Alex
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Ken H.
>
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2014 at 2:22 AM, Bruce Hart wrote:
>> Ken,
>> I can't remember the details, but Alex redid a coach at Montgomery where
>> some component had worn through and had put the coaches owners in serious
>> trouble if it wasn't corrected.
>> Undoubtedly saved the owners life.
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>



--
Bruce Hart
1976 Palm Beach
Milliken, Co
GMC=Got More Class
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Bruce Hart 1976 Palm Beach 1977 28' Kingsley La Grange, Wyoming
Re: [GMCnet] Steering Box Centering [message #263842 is a reply to message #263621] Thu, 09 October 2014 11:44 Go to previous message
PigPen4x4 is currently offline  PigPen4x4   United States
Messages: 61
Registered: March 2014
Location: Chattanooga Tn
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Member
[quote title=Bruce Hart wrote on Mon, 06 October 2014 21:16]I found this Christopher:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/steering-box/p54238-steering-box-adjustment.html

Thanks!!!
I looked at that, and I'm going to check mine out this weekend.
C.


Christopher Brewer Chattanooga Tn Well, no longer an owner.
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