Home » Public Forums » GMCnet » Engine rebuild advice
| Engine rebuild advice [message #262977] |
Mon, 29 September 2014 10:02  |
Neal Krisher
Messages: 54
Registered: November 2013
Location: Apple Valley, MN
Karma: 0
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Hello all, I am considering rebuilding the engine and trans in my coach over the winter and have a few questions.
My plan is to pull the entire front frame clip from my parts coach, rebuild it all and slip it into my driving coach.
The parts rig has 45,xxx miles on it and the driver has 100,xxx miles.
Is a standard rebuild the best approach or are there a few modifications that should be done?
If there are recommended modifications while the engine is apart, what are they?
I plan on keeping it carbureted. I'd like to block the exhaust crossovers. I'll probably install headers. I wouldn't mind a few more horsepower but don't want to sacrifice reliability or drive ability.
Thanks for any and all suggestions!
"Life has no instruction manual. Parts and labor can be impossible to find. Many go down the road with parts that are in need of service. A breakdown is eventual."
1975 26', TZE165V100301 Project/Driver
1977 26' TZE167V100439 Parts unit
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| Re: Engine rebuild advice [message #262983 is a reply to message #262977] |
Mon, 29 September 2014 11:54  |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Neal Krisher wrote on Mon, 29 September 2014 08:02Hello all, I am considering rebuilding the engine and trans in my coach over the winter and have a few questions.
My plan is to pull the entire front frame clip from my parts coach, rebuild it all and slip it into my driving coach.
The parts rig has 45,xxx miles on it and the driver has 100,xxx miles.
Is a standard rebuild the best approach or are there a few modifications that should be done?
If there are recommended modifications while the engine is apart, what are they?
I plan on keeping it carbureted. I'd like to block the exhaust crossovers. I'll probably install headers. I wouldn't mind a few more horsepower but don't want to sacrifice reliability or drive ability.
Thanks for any and all suggestions!
Are you planing on assembling it yourself? In my opinion what I would do is check around and locate a really good machine shop to do the machine work that also uses a Head plate when they bore it to keep the cylinders nice. Don't bore more then.030 and try for a std or .010 -.010 crank. Read Joe Mondello's how to build an olds motor to get a few ideas. Balance it and size the rods . Get a quality valve job. I don' have a problem with the stock rocker set up but you should set the lifter preload when you put the rockers in place. Get a good low rpm high torque cam and kit I used a comp cam flat tapit cam some will insist on a roller cam but good oil and proper break in worked for me. Some insist you install restrictors I don't know if they help much if you don't rev the motor more then 4000 rpm. Some say no to a hi volume oil pump some say you need it . Very important to keep it very clean and flush the block oil passages several times including the crank as any crap in the passages can wipe out the bearings in a heart beat. Make sure the external oil lines and oil cooler are clean and clear. Use a good oil filter like Napa sells. Break it in on Dino oil then switch to a good oil like Mobil 1 15-50. I'm sure you will get other advice but that is it in a nut shell.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: Engine rebuild advice [message #262984 is a reply to message #262977] |
Mon, 29 September 2014 12:34 |
kerry pinkerton
Messages: 2565
Registered: July 2012
Location: Harvest, Al
Karma: 15
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There are photos on the web somewhere of a modification that Dick Paterson does to the thrust bearing to increase the oil flow in that area. We did that on my coach and did NOT use a high volume pump. My oil pressure is a little lower than I'd like. It is perfectly acceptable and will cause no long or short term problems but if I had it to do again, I'd DEFINITELY use a high volume pump.
I did not pull the entire clip, just the tranny, motor, and diff as a unit (out the bottom). If I had it to do over, I'd probably pull the grill, drop the radiator, and slide the whole thing out. It'd be nice to use the subframe as a test stand for run in and chasing those pesky leaks rather than doing that laying on your back. I was also installing a 1 ton conversion and it would have been much easier to have done that on a bench or stands rather than under the coach.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
Kerry Pinkerton - North Alabama
Had 5 over the years. Currently have a '06 Fleetwood Discovery 39L
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| Re: Engine rebuild advice [message #262986 is a reply to message #262977] |
Mon, 29 September 2014 12:50 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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I don't know what the terrain is like in Minnesota but I imagine it is a lot flatter then it is here. I tow a small truck in a mountain state so I found the hard way that the stock nitril crank seal will start leaking like a sieve when it gets much hotter then 250 degrees oil temperature. So if there is any chance you will be torchering your motor the high temperature oil seal would be a good thing to do so you won't have to do it again .
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: Engine rebuild advice [message #262989 is a reply to message #262987] |
Mon, 29 September 2014 13:27 |
roy1
Messages: 2126
Registered: July 2004
Location: Minden nevada
Karma: 6
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hal kading wrote on Mon, 29 September 2014 10:58Unless the head re-builder is familiar with Olds heads he will ruin them by cutting into the water passages when doing the valve seats.
Hal Kading 78 Buskirk Las Cruces NM
I hate to have to have a new seat installed I had a set heads done some time ago they were olds seats they installed on 2 exhaust valves not Chevys.After 10 years the head cracked at one of the replacement seats. It was a bummer finding a replacement head and replacing it at a 5star campground and not getting caught in the process.
Roy Keen
Minden,NV
76 X Glenbrook
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice [message #262991 is a reply to message #262977] |
Mon, 29 September 2014 13:49 |
James Hupy
Messages: 6806
Registered: May 2010
Karma: -62
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Neal, the most critical part of a rebuild on an Olds is the crank and rods.
If your crank is round and straight with smooth journals, leave it alone.
Particularly if it is a forged or nodular iron crank. If you have to turn
it, only minimum cuts. Inspect the thrust surfaces on the crank shoulders
as well as the block. Be sure they are properly radiused. Really
important. Large end of the connecting rods will often be out of round. If
they have been resized previously, do not re-use them. Buy a new set from
Mondello. Pistons? No high compression. Stay below 9.0 to 1. Balance the
rotating and recriprocating pieces including the flex plate and
compensating pulley. Try to keep everything close by less than a 1/4 gram.
Replace the oil pump. Your choice, high volume, or not. Check the block for
align bore. If it needs it, do it. Cam & lifters? Roller or flat tappet?
Current thinking goes towards roller tappets. If you go that way, choose
carefully and get long lasting components matched to a RV grind that makes
maximum torque around 2000 rpm. Heads? If you have smogger heads made after
1972 and the exhaust seats are good, just narrow the contact area to .0625
or less. If your heads need exhaust seats, better find a good re builder to
do them. For sure, re do the guides. .002" to .0025" clearance on the
exhaust stems, .0015" to .002" on the intake stems. Use umbrella seals on
the intakes, Teflon seals on the exhaust. Don't cut the deck surfaces just
because. If they require cutting, only minimum cuts around .010" or so.
Same goes for the head surfaces. Be very sure of intake manifold to head
alignment. Lots more tricks out there, but bandwidth.
Jim Hupy
Salem, Or
78 GMC ROYALE 403
On Sep 29, 2014 8:02 AM, "Neal Krisher" wrote:
> Hello all, I am considering rebuilding the engine and trans in my coach
> over the winter and have a few questions.
> My plan is to pull the entire front frame clip from my parts coach,
> rebuild it all and slip it into my driving coach.
> The parts rig has 45,xxx miles on it and the driver has 100,xxx miles.
> Is a standard rebuild the best approach or are there a few modifications
> that should be done?
> If there are recommended modifications while the engine is apart, what are
> they?
> I plan on keeping it carbureted. I'd like to block the exhaust crossovers.
> I'll probably install headers. I wouldn't mind a few more horsepower but
> don't want to sacrifice reliability or drive ability.
>
> Thanks for any and all suggestions!
> --
> "Life has no instruction manual. Parts and labor can be impossible to
> find. Many go down the road with parts that are in need of service. A
> breakdown
> is eventual."
>
> 1975 Eleganza 26', 455,
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice [message #263160 is a reply to message #262977] |
Thu, 02 October 2014 10:57 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Neal,
If you get a copy of X-7525 you will find all the information you need to rebuild a 455 Oldsmobile engine in Section 6 - Engine.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
-----Original Message-----
From: Neal Krisher
Hello all, I am considering rebuilding the engine and trans in my coach over the winter and have a few questions.
My plan is to pull the entire front frame clip from my parts coach, rebuild it all and slip it into my driving coach.
The parts rig has 45,xxx miles on it and the driver has 100,xxx miles.
Is a standard rebuild the best approach or are there a few modifications that should be done?
If there are recommended modifications while the engine is apart, what are they?
I plan on keeping it carbureted. I'd like to block the exhaust crossovers. I'll probably install headers. I wouldn't mind a few more
horsepower but
don't want to sacrifice reliability or drive ability.
Thanks for any and all suggestions!
1975 Eleganza 26', 455,
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice [message #263161 is a reply to message #262984] |
Thu, 02 October 2014 11:00 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Kerry,
Here you go: http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6364-olds-455-thrust-bearings.html
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
-----Original Message-----
From: Kerry Pinkerton
There are photos on the web somewhere of a modification that Dick Paterson does to the thrust bearing to increase the oil flow in
that area. We did that on my coach and did NOT use a high volume pump. My oil pressure is a little lower than I'd like. It is
perfectly acceptable and will cause no long or short term problems but if I had it to do again, I'd DEFINITELY use a high volume
pump.
I did not pull the entire clip, just the tranny, motor, and diff as a unit (out the bottom). If I had it to do over, I'd probably
pull the grill,
drop the radiator, and slide the whole thing out. It'd be nice to use the subframe as a test stand for run in and chasing those
pesky leaks rather than doing that laying on your back. I was also installing a 1 ton conversion and it would have been much easier
to have done that on a bench or stands rather than under the coach.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
--
Kerry
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Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice [message #263183 is a reply to message #263161] |
Thu, 02 October 2014 17:13 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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Does Dick's modification apply to the 403 engine? Any idea?
Tks
Mike in NS
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Kerry,
>
> Here you go:
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6364-olds-455-thrust-bearings.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> USAussie - Downunder
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kerry Pinkerton
>
> There are photos on the web somewhere of a modification that Dick Paterson
> does to the thrust bearing to increase the oil flow in
> that area. We did that on my coach and did NOT use a high volume pump.
> My oil pressure is a little lower than I'd like. It is
> perfectly acceptable and will cause no long or short term problems but if
> I had it to do again, I'd DEFINITELY use a high volume
> pump.
>
> I did not pull the entire clip, just the tranny, motor, and diff as a unit
> (out the bottom). If I had it to do over, I'd probably
> pull the grill,
> drop the radiator, and slide the whole thing out. It'd be nice to use the
> subframe as a test stand for run in and chasing those
> pesky leaks rather than doing that laying on your back. I was also
> installing a 1 ton conversion and it would have been much easier
> to have done that on a bench or stands rather than under the coach.
>
> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
> --
> Kerry
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
I am not an alcoholic; alcoholics go to meetings.
I am a drunk; I go to parties !
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice [message #263187 is a reply to message #263183] |
Thu, 02 October 2014 18:01 |
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USAussie
Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia
Karma: 6
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Senior Member |
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Mike,
Actually it's not "Dick's mod" the bearings I removed from my Caddy 500 built in 1972 had them.
I don't see why it couldn't be applied to any engine, however, be advised that Dick uses a hi-flow Melling oil pump.
There are a number of schemes like this.
Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kingsley Coach
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 5:13 PM
To: Gmclist
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice
Does Dick's modification apply to the 403 engine? Any idea?
Tks
Mike in NS
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Kerry,
>
> Here you go:
> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6364-olds-455-thrust-bearings.html
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> USAussie - Downunder
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kerry Pinkerton
>
> There are photos on the web somewhere of a modification that Dick Paterson
> does to the thrust bearing to increase the oil flow in
> that area. We did that on my coach and did NOT use a high volume pump.
> My oil pressure is a little lower than I'd like. It is
> perfectly acceptable and will cause no long or short term problems but if
> I had it to do again, I'd DEFINITELY use a high volume
> pump.
>
> I did not pull the entire clip, just the tranny, motor, and diff as a unit
> (out the bottom). If I had it to do over, I'd probably
> pull the grill,
> drop the radiator, and slide the whole thing out. It'd be nice to use the
> subframe as a test stand for run in and chasing those
> pesky leaks rather than doing that laying on your back. I was also
> installing a 1 ton conversion and it would have been much easier
> to have done that on a bench or stands rather than under the coach.
>
> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
> --
> Kerry
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
I am not an alcoholic; alcoholics go to meetings.
I am a drunk; I go to parties !
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
_______________________________________________
GMCnet mailing list
Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
Regards,
Rob M. (USAussie)
The Pedantic Mechanic
Sydney, Australia
'75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
'75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
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| Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice [message #263190 is a reply to message #263187] |
Thu, 02 October 2014 18:19 |
Kingsley Coach
Messages: 2691
Registered: March 2009
Location: Nova Scotia Canada
Karma: -34
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Senior Member |
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Thanks Rob
On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 8:01 PM, Rob Mueller wrote:
> Mike,
>
> Actually it's not "Dick's mod" the bearings I removed from my Caddy 500
> built in 1972 had them.
>
> I don't see why it couldn't be applied to any engine, however, be advised
> that Dick uses a hi-flow Melling oil pump.
>
> There are a number of schemes like this.
>
> Regards,
> Rob M.
> The Pedantic Mechanic
> USAussie - Downunder
> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:
> gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Kingsley Coach
> Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2014 5:13 PM
> To: Gmclist
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] Engine rebuild advice
>
> Does Dick's modification apply to the 403 engine? Any idea?
> Tks
> Mike in NS
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Rob Mueller
> wrote:
>
>> Kerry,
>>
>> Here you go:
>> http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/g6364-olds-455-thrust-bearings.html
>>
>> Regards,
>> Rob M.
>> The Pedantic Mechanic
>> USAussie - Downunder
>> USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
>> AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Kerry Pinkerton
>>
>> There are photos on the web somewhere of a modification that Dick
> Paterson
>> does to the thrust bearing to increase the oil flow in
>> that area. We did that on my coach and did NOT use a high volume pump.
>> My oil pressure is a little lower than I'd like. It is
>> perfectly acceptable and will cause no long or short term problems but if
>> I had it to do again, I'd DEFINITELY use a high volume
>> pump.
>>
>> I did not pull the entire clip, just the tranny, motor, and diff as a
> unit
>> (out the bottom). If I had it to do over, I'd probably
>> pull the grill,
>> drop the radiator, and slide the whole thing out. It'd be nice to use
> the
>> subframe as a test stand for run in and chasing those
>> pesky leaks rather than doing that laying on your back. I was also
>> installing a 1 ton conversion and it would have been much easier
>> to have done that on a bench or stands rather than under the coach.
>>
>> Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
>> --
>> Kerry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GMCnet mailing list
>> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
>> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Beaton
> 1977 Kingsley 26-11
> 1977 Eleganza II 26-3
> Antigonish, NS
>
> I am not an alcoholic; alcoholics go to meetings.
> I am a drunk; I go to parties !
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
--
Michael Beaton
1977 Kingsley 26-11
1977 Eleganza II 26-3
Antigonish, NS
I am not an alcoholic; alcoholics go to meetings.
I am a drunk; I go to parties !
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| Re: Engine rebuild advice [message #263286 is a reply to message #262987] |
Fri, 03 October 2014 15:33 |
gbarrow2
Messages: 765
Registered: February 2004
Location: Lake Almanor, Ca./ Red Bl...
Karma: 3
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Senior Member |
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Neal,
What Hal said! I've already paid for that experience even after discussing the potential problem with the machinist beforehand. And after showing him Mondello's articles on the topic. He did it "by the book"
If you only have 45,000 miles on the parts motor and it runs well, why rebuild it at all; unless you just want a project? Swap engines and keep on truckin.
If you're like most GMC'ers you'll never drive it enough to ever NEED to rebuild it.
I have an 89 Chevy Suburban with 270,000 miles on the engine- still going strong.
Some GMC'ers have far in excess of 100,000 miles on original engines. While others have rebuilt and had them fall apart in a few short miles.
Just another idea. Good luck with whatever you do.
Gene Barrow
Lake Almanor, Ca.
1976 Palm Beach
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