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R-134a to be phased out [message #262038]

Tue, 16 September 2014 10:46

rcjordan

Messages: 1913
Registered: October 2012
Location: Elizabeth City, North Car...

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Much-harder-to-remember "HFO1234YF" can be subbed in for R-134a with little modification to the cooling system. Yeah, yeah, that's what they've said how many times now? Screw it, I'm going with Duracool.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/obama-targets-a-popular-coolant-in-new-effort-to-curb-greenhouse-gases/2014/09/15/cd24c738-3d18- 11e4-9587-5dafd96295f0_story.html

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262041 is a reply to message #262038]

Tue, 16 September 2014 11:07

k2gkk

Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009

Karma: -8

Senior Member

And what company has the patents on the "HFO1234YF" stuff?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*

Fathom the hypocrisy level of a nation
where every citizen must prove that he
or she has health insurance but nobody
must prove that he/she is a citizen!!!

> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 09:46:23 -0600
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> From: rc@rcjordan.com
> Subject: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out
>
> Much-harder-to-remember "HFO1234YF" can be subbed in for R-134a with little modification to the cooling system. Yeah, yeah, that's what they've said
> how many times now? Screw it, I'm going with Duracool.
>
> ( http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/obama-targets-a-popular-coolant-in-new-effort-to-curb-greenhouse-gases/2014/09/15/cd24c738-3d18- 11e4-9587-5dafd96295f0_story.html)
> _______________________________________________
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> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262043 is a reply to message #262041]

Tue, 16 September 2014 11:16

rjw

Messages: 697
Registered: September 2005

Karma: 4

Senior Member

k2gkk wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 12:07

And what company has the patents on the "HFO1234YF" stuff?

As I understand it, Dupont and Honeywell will both will be the beneficiary of sales of this "wonder" refrigerant. Who else?

Richard
76 Palm Beach
SE Michigan
www.PalmBeachGMC.com

Roller Cam 455, TBI+EBL, 3.42 FD, 4 Bag, Macerator, Lenzi (brakes, vacuum system, front end stuff), Manny Tranny, vacuum step, Tankless + OEM water heaters.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 September 2014 12:12]

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262050 is a reply to message #262043]

Tue, 16 September 2014 11:52

larry.whisler

Messages: 356
Registered: August 2005

Karma: 8

Senior Member

It should also be noted that HFO1234YF is very flammable and
many states had to change their statutes to allow it's use.

The statutes were modified to allow flammable refrigerants ONLY
if they were listed on the EPA's SNAP list.

Otherwise, they would have been in violation of those state's
flammable refrigerant rules in vehicles allowed on public roads.

Maybe the Arizona news channel needs to revisit their big story
on HC-12A using HFO1234YF instead.

I'm sure Dow and Honeywell are tossing around some big bucks in
the D.C. area for this. They already did on the state level to
get those laws changed.

jwih

larry

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262054 is a reply to message #262050]

Tue, 16 September 2014 12:07

A Hamilto

Messages: 4508
Registered: April 2011

Karma: 39

Senior Member

larry.whisler wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 11:52

It should also be noted that HFO1234YF is very flammable and many states had to change their statutes to allow it's use.
The statutes were modified to allow flammable refrigerants ONLY if they were listed on the EPA's SNAP list.

Otherwise, they would have been in violation of those state's flammable refrigerant rules in vehicles allowed on public roads.

Maybe the Arizona news channel needs to revisit their big story on HC-12A using HFO1234YF instead.

I'm sure Dow and Honeywell are tossing around some big bucks in the D.C. area for this. They already did on the state level to
get those laws changed.

jwih

larry

There was a formulation of HC12a that was submitted for SNAP review and apparently was not approved. A subsequent reformulation of HC12a that meets DOT shipping requirements has not bee submitted for SNAP review as of the date this faq:

http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/refrigerants/hc12alng.html#q2

It would be cool if the folks that produce HC12a would submit the new DOT approved formula for SNAP review and it got approved. Note that the DOT approval was just for lowering the vapor pressure in the cans for shipping purposes, not related to what goes on inside the automotive AC system.

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262057 is a reply to message #262050]

Tue, 16 September 2014 12:10

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Hey, what in those cans in the photo? I just bought some "Enviro Safe" off ebay, I am pretty sure it is a butane/propane mix- like duracool. It was cheaper than duracool usually is.

Or did I buy some of this new fangled stuff?

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262058 is a reply to message #262057]

Tue, 16 September 2014 12:20

hertfordnc

Messages: 1164
Registered: September 2009
Location: East NC

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Is this duracool? LINK

Dave & Ellen Silva Hertford, NC 76 Birchaven, 1-ton and other stuff Currently planning the Great american Road Trip Summer 2021 It's gonna take a lot of Adderall to get this thing right.

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262060 is a reply to message #262050]

Tue, 16 September 2014 12:30

rjw

Messages: 697
Registered: September 2005

Karma: 4

Senior Member

larry.whisler wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 12:52

It should also be noted that HFO1234YF is very flammable and
many states had to change their statutes to allow it's use.

According to EPA.GOV the stuff is just mildly flammable, if you can believe the government.

http://www.epa.gov/cpd/mac/10.05%20am%20Koban%20and%20DeGuiseppi.pdf

Toxicity:
1234yf A-Low
134a A-Low

Flammability
1234yf Mild
134a None

Some potential service differences for HFO-1234yf are:

Service shops and technicians may need to purchase/use new equipment (flammability/product differences)
-Recovery/recycle/recharge equipment
-Refrigerant identifiers
-Leak detection equipment

HFO-1234yf refrigerant system components should not be replaced with ones removed from a system that uses another type of refrigerant, or from a salvaged vehicle
-Replacement evaporators should meet SAE J2842

HFO-1234yf is mildly flammable
-Precautions used with other flammables (gasoline, oil) are Precautions used with other flammables (gasoline, oil) are applicable to HFO applicable to HFO-1234yf.

Some potential service differences for HFO-1234yf are:
-Lubricants used with HFO-1234yf systems may be different than those currently used
-Hybrid compressors, driven by high-voltage electric motors, or equipped with hermetic mobile A/C systems, use different oils equipped with hermetic mobile A/C systems, use different oils
-Necessary to check oil requirements

Do-it-yourselfers may charge non-approved refrigerants into HFO-1234yf systems
-Result refrigerant cross contamination
-Could cause system failure and/or system misdiagnose

I think I will stick with HC12.

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262063 is a reply to message #262060]

Tue, 16 September 2014 13:13

Keith V

Messages: 2337
Registered: March 2008
Location: Mounds View,MN

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Crooks
I wonder how much ODummy is making off this sellout?

Keith Vasilakes
Mounds View. MN
75 ex Royale GMC
ask me about MicroLevel
Cell, 763-732-3419
My427v8@hotmail.com

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Re: R-134a to be phased out [message #262066 is a reply to message #262038]

Tue, 16 September 2014 14:04

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

rcjordan wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 09:46

Much-harder-to-remember "HFO1234YF" can be subbed in for R-134a with little modification to the cooling system. Yeah, yeah, that's what they've said how many times now? Screw it, I'm going with Duracool.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/obama-targets-a-popular-coolant-in-new-effort-to-curb-greenhouse-gases/2014/09/15/cd24c738-3d18- 11e4-9587-5dafd96295f0_story.html

This has been in production for a couple of years now starting with the Cadillac XTS. The European union legislated it's use and Mercedes refused to go with it-and was temporarily banned from selling in certain countries.
Apparently SAE conducted flammability tests and concluded that in real life situations it is not an issue.

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262067 is a reply to message #262063]

Tue, 16 September 2014 14:08

Bullitthead

Messages: 1411
Registered: November 2013

Karma: 5

Senior Member

You have to understand that THEY don't want you to have climate control or any heat machines, for that matter. If it can't be done with wheels and levers, then you cannot accomplish your desire. You will NOT be allowed to introduce FIRE into the work equation. If THEY have to kill you to get comfort and labor-saving devices away from the general populace, then that is what will be done!

Terry Kelpien ASE Master Technician 73 Glacier 260 Smithfield, Va.

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262069 is a reply to message #262043]

Tue, 16 September 2014 14:10

emerystora

Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 13

Senior Member

People are always confusing Dow and DuPont and you have also.

DuPont andHoneywell.
http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/

Dow does not market and refrigerants but usually gets blamed for any bad press on them.

Emery Stora

> On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:16 PM, RJW wrote:
>
> k2gkk wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 12:07
>> And what company has the patents on the "HFO1234YF" stuff?
>
> As I understand it, Dow and Honeywell both will be the beneficiary of sales of this "wonder" refrigerant. Who else?
>
> --
> Richard
> 76 Palm Beach
> SE Michigan
> www.PalmBeachGMC.com
>
>
> Coop Roller Cam 455, Howell TBI + EBL, 3.42 FD, Quadra Bag, Macerator, Manny Tranny etc.
>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262070 is a reply to message #262041]

Tue, 16 September 2014 14:14

k2gkk

Messages: 4452
Registered: November 2009

Karma: -8

Senior Member

DuPont has been suckling at the public teat since the Revolutionary War!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ D C "Mac" Macdonald ~ ~~
~ ~ Amateur Radio - K2GKK ~ ~
~ ~ USAF and FAA, Retired ~ ~
~ ~ ~ Oklahoma City, OK ~ ~ ~
~~ ~ ~ "The Money Pit" ~ ~ ~~
~ ~ ~ ~ TZE166V101966 ~ ~ ~ ~
~ ~ ~ '76 ex-Palm Beach ~ ~ ~
~~ k2gkk + hotmail dot com ~~
~ www.gmcmhphotos.com/okclb ~
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
______________
*[ ]~~~[][ ][|\
*--OO--[]---O-*

> From: emerystora@mac.com
> Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 15:10:00 -0400
> To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
> Subject: Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out
>
> People are always confusing Dow and DuPont and you have also.
>
> DuPont andHoneywell.
> http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/
>
> Dow does not market and refrigerants but usually gets blamed for any bad press on them.
>
> Emery Stora
>
>> On Sep 16, 2014, at 12:16 PM, RJW wrote:
>>
>> k2gkk wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 12:07
>>> And what company has the patents on the "HFO1234YF" stuff?
>>
>> As I understand it, Dow and Honeywell both will be the beneficiary of sales of this "wonder" refrigerant. Who else?
>>
>> --
>> Richard
>> 76 Palm Beach
>> SE Michigan
>> www.PalmBeachGMC.com
>>
>>
>> Coop Roller Cam 455, Howell TBI + EBL, 3.42 FD, Quadra Bag, Macerator, Manny Tranny etc.

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262072 is a reply to message #262060]

Tue, 16 September 2014 14:24

larry.whisler

Messages: 356
Registered: August 2005

Karma: 8

Senior Member

[quote title=rjw wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 12:30]larry.whisler wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 12:52

It should also be noted that HFO1234YF is very flammable and
many states had to change their statutes to allow it's use.

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262097 is a reply to message #262069]

Tue, 16 September 2014 20:28

rjw

Messages: 697
Registered: September 2005

Karma: 4

Senior Member

emerystora wrote on Tue, 16 September 2014 15:10

People are always confusing Dow and DuPont and you have also.

DuPont andHoneywell.
http://www2.dupont.com/hfo1234yf/en_US/

Dow does not market and refrigerants but usually gets blamed for any bad press on them.

Emery Stora

As soon as I wrote Dow and pressed submit reply I knew I goofed and that you would call me out on that since you used to work for Dow. I was typing while I was looking at jug of Dow RV Antifreeze in my office. Realizing my mistake, I immediately went back to the GMCforum and changed Dow to DuPont. Apparently not soon enough for you. I do know the difference between Dow and DuPont and don't want to offend anyone.

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Re: R-134a to be phased out [message #262103 is a reply to message #262038]

Tue, 16 September 2014 21:09

JohnL455

Messages: 4447
Registered: October 2006
Location: Woodstock, IL

Karma: 12

Senior Member

134a pricing is all oner the map right now. I saw at Farm and Fleet about $5 and about $16 at NAPA. NAPA has know how. They know how to gouge on phase- out. I was in a NAPA and saw the high price last spring and asked the guy about it. That's when I found out there was sonething new a commin.

John Lebetski
Woodstock, IL
77 Eleganza II

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Re: R-134a to be phased out [message #262104 is a reply to message #262038]

Tue, 16 September 2014 21:17

lotsofspareparts

Messages: 726
Registered: May 2014
Location: Arlington, WA

Karma: -9

Senior Member

Bought 2 12oz cans of Interdynamics R12 refrigerant on eBay, took just over 6oz to bring my system to full charge. It is good enough for a 90 degree day up here. It cost me $50.

As long as R-12 is still available I am going to use it since that is what this system was designed for, it is also the best refrigerant as far as I have been told.

You can use the new replacement stuff if you want to be cheap, I decided to spend the extra money and couldn't be happier, and have refrigerant left over for further top offs.

JWID.....

Jared

Jared & Tina Lazaron + 14yr old Daughter..... 77 Eleganza II "Recherché"..... 73 Canyon Lands 230 "Elephant"

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262123 is a reply to message #262104]

Wed, 17 September 2014 08:22

emerystora

Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 13

Senior Member

Cheapness has nothing to do with it.
HC12a (Duracool) is about 10% more efficient in the GMC system that originally used R12. The air exiting the vents will be colder with HC-12a.
You have now been told differently.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

On Sep 16, 2014, at 9:17 PM, Jared wrote:

> Bought 2 12oz cans of Interdynamics R12 refrigerant on eBay, took just over 6oz to bring my system to full charge. It is good enough for a 90 degree
> day up here. It cost me $50.
>
> As long as R-12 is still available I am going to use it since that is what this system was designed for, it is also the best refrigerant as far as I
> have been told.
>
> You can use the new replacement stuff if you want to be cheap, I decided to spend the extra money and couldn't be happier, and have refrigerant left
> over for further top offs.
>
> JWID.....
>
> Jared
> --

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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262126 is a reply to message #262104]

Wed, 17 September 2014 08:59

Mr ERFisher

Messages: 7117
Registered: August 2005

Karma: 2

Senior Member

On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, Jared wrote:

> Bought 2 12oz cans of Interdynamics R12 refrigerant on eBay, took just
> over 6oz to bring my system to full charge. It is good enough for a 90
> degree
> day up here. It cost me $50.
>
> As long as R-12 is still available I am going to use it since that is what
> this system was designed for, it is also the best refrigerant as far as I
> have been told.
>
> You can use the new replacement stuff if you want to be cheap,

Not cheap
Better, dura cool :
- lower head pressure
- lower contamination
- used all over the world
- compatible with all seals and oils
- more efficient
- does not cause testicular cancer :)
http://gmcmotorhome.info/heat.html#duracool

Erf

I decided to spend the extra money and couldn't be happier, and have
> refrigerant left
> over for further top offs.
>
> JWID.....
>
> Jared
> --
> Jared & Tina Lazaron + 7yr old Daughter.
>
> 77 Eleganza II "Recherché" Winterfeldt 455, Holley ProJection, Doug
> Thorley Headers, 3in exhaust, Switch Pitch, Alcoas, ONAN 6.5 Emerald
> series, CMC
> Restoration
>
> GO SEAHAWKS!!
>
> Arlington, WA 98223
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
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>

--
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“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today --- give him a URL and
-------
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Alternator Protection Cable
http://gmcmotorhome.info/APC.html
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Re: [GMCnet] R-134a to be phased out [message #262129 is a reply to message #262104]

Wed, 17 September 2014 09:21

emerystora

Messages: 4442
Registered: January 2004

Karma: 13

Senior Member

Cheapness has nothing to do with it.
HC12a (Duracool) is about 10% more efficient in the GMC system that originally used R12. The air exiting the vents will be colder with HC-12a.

Less load on the compressor. Less leakage past seals due to molecule size.

You have now been told differently.

Emery Stora
77 Kingsley
Frederick, CO

Emery

> On Sep 16, 2014, at 10:17 PM, Jared wrote:
>
> Bought 2 12oz cans of Interdynamics R12 refrigerant on eBay, took just over 6oz to bring my system to full charge. It is good enough for a 90 degree
> day up here. It cost me $50.
>
> As long as R-12 is still available I am going to use it since that is what this system was designed for, it is also the best refrigerant as far as I
> have been told.
>
> You can use the new replacement stuff if you want to be cheap, I decided to spend the extra money and couldn't be happier, and have refrigerant left
> over for further top offs.
>
> JWID.....
>
> Jared
> --
> Jared & Tina Lazaron + 7yr old Daughter.
>
> 77 Eleganza II "Recherché" Winterfeldt 455, Holley ProJection, Doug Thorley Headers, 3in exhaust, Switch Pitch, Alcoas, ONAN 6.5 Emerald series, CMC
> Restoration
>
> GO SEAHAWKS!!
>
> Arlington, WA 98223
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
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