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replacing Onan [message #261607]

Thu, 11 September 2014 11:43

Ron E

Messages: 28
Registered: October 2012
Location: OK Falls BC

Karma: 0

Junior Member

I've had it with this thing, can't get it to stop hunting or almost stopping and going again Mad

Mad

when it is running the voltage is bouncing all over the place from 90-130 not good

so I am asking what have been the most popular replacement? I am concerned about the electronics so should I be looking at an inverter type like the Honda 3000[or similar] I have a single a/c at 13500 and a convection micro for the large draws, probably not at the same time

of course physical size is important, has anybody hung a replacement down a little bit? thankyou Ron

Ron/Phyllis English 78 Royale twin, center kitchen OK Falls BC

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261610 is a reply to message #261607]

Thu, 11 September 2014 12:12

midlf

Messages: 2212
Registered: July 2007
Location: SE Wisc. (Palmyra)

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Ron E wrote on Thu, 11 September 2014 11:43

I've had it with this thing, can't get it to stop hunting or almost stopping and going again when it is running the voltage is bouncing all over the place from 90-130 not good

so I am asking what have been the most popular replacement? I am concerned about the electronics so should I be looking at an inverter type like the Honda 3000[or similar] I have a single a/c at 13500 and a convection micro for the large draws, probably not at the same time

of course physical size is important, has anybody hung a replacement down a little bit? thankyou Ron

Mine hunting problem turned out, ultimately, to be a choke problem. Choke mechanism was defective and held the choke very slightly on. I did not notice this. Carb was cleaned and adjusted per book. It seemed OK but some times would start to hunt and sometimes would almost stop. With the choke just slightly on the carb adjustments were lean. When the choke would open all the way, from vibration, the hunting would start. Fixed this with a small spring to put some open tension on the choke.

The Onan is a very simple machine, other than the control board, and problems like this should be correctable. Before I would dump the Onan I would get another GMC'er in your area with some Onan familiarity to look it over. Changing out the Onan is expensive and not a simple plug and play.

As far hanging it down a bit. Don't see how. The frame is directly under the onan compartment.

Steve Southworth
1974 Glacier TZE064V100150 (for workin on)
1975 Transmode TZE365V100394 (parts & spares)
Palmyra WI

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261617 is a reply to message #261607]

Thu, 11 September 2014 15:24

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Ron E wrote on Thu, 11 September 2014 10:43

I've had it with this thing, can't get it to stop hunting or almost stopping and going again when it is running the voltage is bouncing all over the place from 90-130 not good

so I am asking what have been the most popular replacement? I am concerned about the electronics so should I be looking at an inverter type like the Honda 3000[or similar] I have a single a/c at 13500 and a convection micro for the large draws, probably not at the same time

of course physical size is important, has anybody hung a replacement down a little bit? thankyou Ron

I finally had enough as well. I got an Onan Emerald which is probably not a common replacement. I stayed away from an inverter style for 2 reasons. One is that inverter units will not momentarily lug down when hit with a startup load and recover--they just shut down. The other one is an issue of reliability. Inverters are notorious for burning out and the replacement cost equals the cost of the whole unit. The Emerald is about the same size as the Onan power drawer and although it is square, it doesn't look like it. I decided to mount it "permanently" rather than fool with the slides.

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261660 is a reply to message #261607]

Thu, 11 September 2014 21:15

Ron E

Messages: 28
Registered: October 2012
Location: OK Falls BC

Karma: 0

Junior Member

thankyou for your input guys, these are 2 options that I will explore, first the spring on choke fix, and pricing out the emerald or similar.
Are you not concerned about your electronics, not having an inverter type? Confused

Confused

Ron/Phyllis English 78 Royale twin, center kitchen OK Falls BC

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261662 is a reply to message #261607]

Thu, 11 September 2014 21:33

Chr$

Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Honda EV6010 if you can find one.

-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ

77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261663 is a reply to message #261660]

Thu, 11 September 2014 21:57

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Ron E wrote on Thu, 11 September 2014 20:15

thankyou for your input guys, these are 2 options that I will explore, first the spring on choke fix, and pricing out the emerald or similar.
Are you not concerned about your electronics, not having an inverter type?

An inverter unit tries to replicate a true sine wave that a conventional generator puts out--so no I'm not worried at all.

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261665 is a reply to message #261607]

Thu, 11 September 2014 22:43

homer

Messages: 73
Registered: April 2011
Location: arizona/ BC canada

Karma: 0

Member

Ron, I had to many problems with Onan,I replaced it with a 5kw Genarac that was 3yrs ago I am all elec no propane very very happy its a prefect fit with no slides and quiet compared with the onan. homer

homer

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261677 is a reply to message #261660]

Fri, 12 September 2014 06:51

Ken Henderson

Messages: 8726
Registered: March 2004
Location: Americus, GA

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Ron,

Don't be deceived by the advertising for inverter-utilizing generators. A
standard "old fashioned" generator naturally produces sine wave output --
is a function of how they work as they rotated a coil through a magnetic
field.

Inverters, on the other hand, need to produce a sine wave. So, they take
DC voltage and convert it to, first, a modified square wave. Then, by
switching and filtering, "round off" the sharp corners of the square wave.
Those square waves contain a LOT of extraneous frequencies (that's why
they're square) to be filtered out. Filters are not 100% effective, so a
lot of those un-wanted signals escape to plague other devices. And the
final output waveform is never exactly a pure sine wave.

Inverters ARE NOT better for your electronics than a well-controlled true
sine wave generator.

Ken H.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Ron English wrote:

> thankyou for your input guys, these are 2 options that I will explore,
> first the spring on choke fix, and pricing out the emerald or similar.
> Are you not concerned about your electronics, not having an inverter type?
> :?
> --
>
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Ken Henderson
Americus, GA
www.gmcwipersetc.com
Large Wiring Diagrams
76 X-Birchaven
76 X-Palm Beach

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261679 is a reply to message #261677]

Fri, 12 September 2014 07:37

Jim at the Co-op

Messages: 291
Registered: May 2014
Location: Orlando Florida

Karma: 2

Senior Member

Generators is a really difficult subject when you look to raise the
reliability of a coach. Someone spends money to have a good working
coach-- they will not leave here with a Power Drawer!

Ken is right, I went the way of a Chinese inverter generator and have not
as yet given up but the reality is they just don't like the loads we put on
them and the heat they need to dissipate!

With the amount of Honda EV-6010's out there and the fact that we have
parts and services available on them that is far better than anyone else
out there, the Honda is truly a step up in reliability. The Marquis Onan
is a good generator but with a spark plug on the back side and the fact
that you have to shoehorn the thing into our compartment, I have done them
but moved away from them after doing several.

Guys really the Honda is the most cost effective, most reliable option out
there right now and I'm so happy to have then as an option for us. They
fit perfect, even with a rear battery but I move all batteries up from when
doing restoration work.

Watch Craigs list and Ebay for one, be sure to try and get the remote panel
and a muffler kit of some kind when you buy one. The muffler is important
and you will spend @ $300 for one-- likewise on the remote kit-- yea, you
could rewire the remote but brother don't make a wiring mistake and they
are very different.

Pinellas Power products in Brookesville Fl. is your source for information
and parts-- check out their web site. Paul knows that generator-- bout all
he works on and he can get you any part you need. You need a support group
with these machines, Paul is it for the Honda generators. Tell him I told
you to call. 727-439-2872.

Gotta tell ya this is what you should do,

Jim Bounds
------------------------------

On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Ken Henderson
wrote:

> Ron,
>
> Don't be deceived by the advertising for inverter-utilizing generators. A
> standard "old fashioned" generator naturally produces sine wave output --
> is a function of how they work as they rotated a coil through a magnetic
> field.
>
> Inverters, on the other hand, need to produce a sine wave. So, they take
> DC voltage and convert it to, first, a modified square wave. Then, by
> switching and filtering, "round off" the sharp corners of the square wave.
> Those square waves contain a LOT of extraneous frequencies (that's why
> they're square) to be filtered out. Filters are not 100% effective, so a
> lot of those un-wanted signals escape to plague other devices. And the
> final output waveform is never exactly a pure sine wave.
>
> Inverters ARE NOT better for your electronics than a well-controlled true
> sine wave generator.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Ron English
> wrote:
>
>> thankyou for your input guys, these are 2 options that I will explore,
>> first the spring on choke fix, and pricing out the emerald or similar.
>> Are you not concerned about your electronics, not having an inverter
> type?
>> :?
>> --
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
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Re: replacing Onan [message #261680 is a reply to message #261662]

Fri, 12 September 2014 07:57

stick miller

Messages: 1036
Registered: March 2010
Location: Americus, Georgia

Karma: 0

Senior Member

Chr$ wrote on Thu, 11 September 2014 22:33

Honda EV6010 if you can find one.

Tom Phipps has a nice one for sale.

Stick Miller
'78 Royale - "White Trash" - she left me for another man
'76 Eleganza - "Cousin Eddie" Sold
'84 Bluebird Wanderlodge - "Past Tents"
Americus, GA

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261684 is a reply to message #261679]

Fri, 12 September 2014 09:36

USAussie

Messages: 15912
Registered: July 2007
Location: Sydney, Australia

Karma: 6

Senior Member

G'day,

I found two Honda's on eBay; one to install and one for spare parts, can't remember what I paid for them but it was reasonable. I
contacted PP as JimB recommended but their product is a fully rebuilt unit and carried a price higher than what I paid for both of
mine.

PLEASE do not interpret what I noted above as a criticism of PP, I am merely noting that you can go two ways, buy a used unit and
bear the risk of it being a POS or buy one from PP and paying for a rebuilt unit. I chose the former as I have the skill set to fix
it.

I am going to disagree with JimB a bit, I reckon if you can sort out your Onan by:

1) Checking the compression to make sure it is OK
2) Fixing the oil leaks
3) Getting the fuel supply system up to snuff by
a) Removing the shutoff solenoid
b) Verifying the fuel pump is operating properly (Facet copy of OEM pump ~ $100)
c) Carefully cleaning and rebuilding the carb (Rebuilt carb ~ $200 Rebuild kit ~ $30)
4) Installing Gary Bovee's Pertronics ignition kit ($130)
5) Replacing the coil with one from a Harley Davidson ($40)
6) Carrying a spare board ($140)

If the generator is the problem contact Jim Miller and have him supply a rewound unit. He does it with copper wire which is vastly
superior to the OEM unit which was wound with aluminum.

I fully understand why JimB R&R's them as it doing the above does take time and incurs parts costs, as a repair shop most people
won't want to fork over what it will cost to do that.

Regards,
Rob M.
The Pedantic Mechanic
USAussie - Downunder
USA '75 Avion - Double Trouble TZE365V100426
AUS '75 Avion - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428

-----Original Message-----
From: gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org [mailto:gmclist-bounces@temp.gmcnet.org] On Behalf Of Jim Bounds
Sent: Friday, September 12, 2014 7:38 AM
To: gmclist@temp.gmcnet.org
Subject: Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan

Generators is a really difficult subject when you look to raise the
reliability of a coach. Someone spends money to have a good working
coach-- they will not leave here with a Power Drawer!

Ken is right, I went the way of a Chinese inverter generator and have not
as yet given up but the reality is they just don't like the loads we put on
them and the heat they need to dissipate!

With the amount of Honda EV-6010's out there and the fact that we have
parts and services available on them that is far better than anyone else
out there, the Honda is truly a step up in reliability. The Marquis Onan
is a good generator but with a spark plug on the back side and the fact
that you have to shoehorn the thing into our compartment, I have done them
but moved away from them after doing several.

Guys really the Honda is the most cost effective, most reliable option out
there right now and I'm so happy to have then as an option for us. They
fit perfect, even with a rear battery but I move all batteries up from when
doing restoration work.

Watch Craigs list and Ebay for one, be sure to try and get the remote panel
and a muffler kit of some kind when you buy one. The muffler is important
and you will spend @ $300 for one-- likewise on the remote kit-- yea, you
could rewire the remote but brother don't make a wiring mistake and they
are very different.

Pinellas Power products in Brookesville Fl. is your source for information
and parts-- check out their web site. Paul knows that generator-- bout all
he works on and he can get you any part you need. You need a support group
with these machines, Paul is it for the Honda generators. Tell him I told
you to call. 727-439-2872.

Gotta tell ya this is what you should do,

Jim Bounds
------------------------------

On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 7:51 AM, Ken Henderson
wrote:

> Ron,
>
> Don't be deceived by the advertising for inverter-utilizing generators. A
> standard "old fashioned" generator naturally produces sine wave output --
> is a function of how they work as they rotated a coil through a magnetic
> field.
>
> Inverters, on the other hand, need to produce a sine wave. So, they take
> DC voltage and convert it to, first, a modified square wave. Then, by
> switching and filtering, "round off" the sharp corners of the square wave.
> Those square waves contain a LOT of extraneous frequencies (that's why
> they're square) to be filtered out. Filters are not 100% effective, so a
> lot of those un-wanted signals escape to plague other devices. And the
> final output waveform is never exactly a pure sine wave.
>
> Inverters ARE NOT better for your electronics than a well-controlled true
> sine wave generator.
>
> Ken H.
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 10:15 PM, Ron English
> wrote:
>
>> thankyou for your input guys, these are 2 options that I will explore,
>> first the spring on choke fix, and pricing out the emerald or similar.
>> Are you not concerned about your electronics, not having an inverter
> type?
>> :?
>> --
>>
> _______________________________________________
> GMCnet mailing list
> Unsubscribe or Change List Options:
> http://temp.gmcnet.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/gmclist
>
_______________________________________________
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Regards, Rob M. (USAussie) The Pedantic Mechanic Sydney, Australia '75 Avion - AUS - The Blue Streak TZE365V100428 '75 Avion - USA - Double Trouble TZE365V100426

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261697 is a reply to message #261684]

Fri, 12 September 2014 14:07

Ken Burton

Messages: 10030
Registered: January 2004
Location: Hebron, Indiana

Karma: 10

Senior Member

I'm with you Rob. I sure would like to get a hold of a couple of these Onans people are throwing away. All of the stuff that you listed would not have to be done to a used on to resurrect it.

Now if the winding were open then we are talking some work, but now that Jim Miller is rewinding them in copper that would not be a real big job.

I'll take a real generator and real sine wave like the power company supplies any day over one of those simulated inverter ones.

Ken Burton - N9KB
76 Palm Beach
Hebron, Indiana

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261698 is a reply to message #261617]

Fri, 12 September 2014 14:17

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

Forgot to include a pic:
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/onan/p43287-getting-the-new-onan-r.html
http://www.gmcmhphotos.com/photos/onan/p43287-getting-the-new-onan-r.html

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: replacing Onan [message #261703 is a reply to message #261607]

Fri, 12 September 2014 16:11

Chr$

Messages: 2690
Registered: January 2004
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

I just kept looking on CL and eventually found a Honda 4010 for $900 with the muffler and remote and only 80 hours on it. I know they are actual, as I helped the guy deinstall the genset from his trailer and it was all hooked up and running then. He had the orig paperwork, including the template used to cut the baseplate for it that also came with it. I got lucky. I just wish it was a 6010 for like an extra 10 pounds and could run two trailers off of it.

Jim B is right, these are the one to have, and Paul is the guy to support you.

Just run it once a month, and don't run the gas out of it like an outboard motor, (Don't ask me how I know this).

-Chr$: Perpetual SmartAss
Scottsdale, AZ

77 Ex-Kingsley 455 SOLD!
2010 Nomad 24 Ft TT 390W PV W/MPPT, EV4010 and custom cargo door.
Photosite: Chrisc GMC:"It has Begun" TT: "The Other Woman"

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261705 is a reply to message #261697]

Fri, 12 September 2014 16:29

Jim Miller

Messages: 501
Registered: March 2008

Karma: 10

Senior Member

Right on Ken.

What I find humorous is that the "new Onans" people are installing in pursuit of improved reliability have exactly the same prime mover design as the old Onan they are taking out - both being carbureted, horizontally opposed, in-block valve, air cooled with wasted-spark ignition. I just found an Emerald Plus service manual and it shows that units up to revision G even had breaker-point ignition - exactly like our "old" units. The new ones can (and eventually WILL) have all the same fuel delivery, ignition and controls problems as the old.

Worse yet, the Emerald has a far more complicated electronic voltage regulation/excitation system as compared to a single passive transformer, a zener diode and a trivial bridge rectifier found in the old ones. You certainly aren't going to go to the local radio shack and find parts to fix the AC section of an Emerald like you can with the older design.

--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

On Sep 12, 2014, at 3:07 PM, Ken Burton wrote:

> I'm with you Rob. I sure would like to get a hold of a couple of these Onans people are throwing away. All of the stuff that you listed would not have to be done to a used on to resurrect it.
>
> Now if the winding were open then we are talking some work, but now that Jim Miller is rewinding them in copper that would not be a real big job.
>
> I'll take a real generator and real sine wave like the power company supplies any day over one of those simulated inverter ones.

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Jim Miller 1977 Eleganza II 1977 Royale Hamilton, OH

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261711 is a reply to message #261705]

Fri, 12 September 2014 17:21

Bob de Kruyff

Messages: 4260
Registered: January 2004
Location: Chandler, AZ

Karma: 1

Senior Member

""What I find humorous is that the "new Onans" people are installing in pursuit of improved reliability have exactly the same prime mover design as the old Onan they are taking out - both being carbureted, horizontally opposed, in-block valve, air cooled with wasted-spark ignition. I just found an Emerald Plus service manual and it shows that units up to revision G even had breaker-point ignition - exactly like our "old" units. The new ones can (and eventually WILL) have all the same fuel delivery, ignition and controls problems as the old.
""

But that is exactly why I like the new Onans. If they run as well as the old ones for another 30 years, the Hondas will be in the trash heap by then.

Bob de Kruyff
78 Eleganza
Chandler, AZ

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261716 is a reply to message #261711]

Fri, 12 September 2014 18:01

lotsofspareparts

Messages: 726
Registered: May 2014
Location: Arlington, WA

Karma: -9

Senior Member

Bob de Kruyff wrote on Fri, 12 September 2014 15:21

""What I find humorous is that the "new Onans" people are installing in pursuit of improved reliability have exactly the same prime mover design as the old Onan they are taking out - both being carbureted, horizontally opposed, in-block valve, air cooled with wasted-spark ignition. I just found an Emerald Plus service manual and it shows that units up to revision G even had breaker-point ignition - exactly like our "old" units. The new ones can (and eventually WILL) have all the same fuel delivery, ignition and controls problems as the old.
""

But that is exactly why I like the new Onans. If they run as well as the old ones for another 30 years, the Hondas will be in the trash heap by then.

Only if the Hondas are not maintained.

Nothing runs better than a maintained Honda. My 87 Prelude had 316,000 miles on it when I sold it 8 years ago, ran into the guy who bought it this morning at the gas station and he said it is approaching 400 and his daughter drives it 70 miles per day back and forth to the UW in Seattle.

That is Honda reliability.

Jared

Jared & Tina Lazaron + 14yr old Daughter..... 77 Eleganza II "Recherché"..... 73 Canyon Lands 230 "Elephant"

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261718 is a reply to message #261705]

Fri, 12 September 2014 18:20

GMC.LES

Messages: 505
Registered: April 2014

Karma: -2

Senior Member

Do the Emerald gensets produce a 240/120v output ? That for some is a major advantage.

It would be nice to be able to upgrade the old power drawers to 220v so they can be used for emergency power at home. I have 3 of them here and prefer them to most other gensets because they purr along at 1800rpm rather than the buzz of 3600 rpm.

Jim, have you figured out a way, even if complicated, to reliably modify the armature for 240/120v operation? I might be willing try converting one of mine if not excessively costly to do so.

Les Burt
Montreal
1975 Eleganza 26ft
A work in Progress

On Sep 12, 2014, at 5:29 PM, Jim Miller wrote:

Right on Ken.

What I find humorous is that the "new Onans" people are installing in pursuit of improved reliability have exactly the same prime mover design as the old Onan they are taking out - both being carbureted, horizontally opposed, in-block valve, air cooled with wasted-spark ignition. I just found an Emerald Plus service manual and it shows that units up to revision G even had breaker-point ignition - exactly like our "old" units. The new ones can (and eventually WILL) have all the same fuel delivery, ignition and controls problems as the old.

Worse yet, the Emerald has a far more complicated electronic voltage regulation/excitation system as compared to a single passive transformer, a zener diode and a trivial bridge rectifier found in the old ones. You certainly aren't going to go to the local radio shack and find parts to fix the AC section of an Emerald like you can with the older design.

--Jim "saving the lives of Onans...one unit at a time" Miller
1977 Eleganza II
1977 Royale
Hamilton, OH

> On Sep 12, 2014, at 3:07 PM, Ken Burton wrote:
>
> I'm with you Rob. I sure would like to get a hold of a couple of these Onans people are throwing away. All of the stuff that you listed would not have to be done to a used on to resurrect it.
>
> Now if the winding were open then we are talking some work, but now that Jim Miller is rewinding them in copper that would not be a real big job.
>
> I'll take a real generator and real sine wave like the power company supplies any day over one of those simulated inverter ones.

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261723 is a reply to message #261718]

Fri, 12 September 2014 18:59

tphipps

Messages: 3005
Registered: August 2004
Location: Spanish Fort, AL

Karma: 9

Senior Member

Honda ev6010 can and will produce 240v AC. Just a trivial wire change. Honda ev4010 will also. If you look at the Honda installation manual, you might notice that the ev4010 is slightly bigger than the ev6010. Either will easily fit in a 26' GMC. Neither will fit in a 23' GMC.
Very easy install, especially after you figure out the exhaust system.
Tom, MS II. With Honda ev6010 installed, and a rebuilt one for sale.

As Packard used to say, "Ask the guy who has one."

2012 Phoenix Cruiser model 2552 KA4CSG

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Re: [GMCnet] replacing Onan [message #261728 is a reply to message #261679]

Fri, 12 September 2014 19:27

Ron E

Messages: 28
Registered: October 2012
Location: OK Falls BC

Karma: 0

Junior Member

Tom ms II
I would be interested in your rebuilt EV6010
Please pm me with location and price...thanks Ron

Ron/Phyllis English 78 Royale twin, center kitchen OK Falls BC

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